Pension liability Referendum

[jaxcpa]

I am looking for a "non-partisan" guide to understanding the pension liability referendum. Does anyone know of anything available online?

[Tacachale]

If you want non-partisan, you're on the wrong website, my friend 

This article about the last Milliman report does a fair job with the most recent figures:

http://m.jacksonville.com/news/metro/2016-06-28/story/new-report-shows-jacksonville-could-reduce-pension-contributions#article=392423BDB7ACA064C69A22EFD01694A42C1A5A

Someone linked the Milliman report itself in another thread; that's also worth reading.

[ronchamblin]

The pension debt, and actually the overall debt the city has accumulated, is interesting.  And I wonder about the similarities between a debt accumulated by a typical family, and that of a city or community.  Although I've read a little about the city "debt", including the pension debt, I remain ignorant of the particulars.  I fail to feel deprived for the most part however, as most of these details are I suspect enmeshed in politics, power, theft, personalities, blame, distortions, lies; in other words, a full range of bullshit.  Therefore, I prefer to avoid these details, which usually leads one in circles, perpetuating the problem, preferring to proceed with my ignorance ... to roam the fundamentals and generalities.   

Solutions lie often in simplicities ... which emerge if the concerned can rid themselves of the distracting pressures of bullshit ... the range as mentioned in the "particulars" above.  Instead of seeking understanding and solutions by attempting to untangle the details inherent in the full range of bullshit ...which is almost impossible for anyone ... I prefer to attempt clarity in my usual way ... by thinking out loud as I enjoy an espresso.

Surely a city, made up of many people, can be related to a family, made up of several people.  And just as a family has debt ... so too with a city. 

I suggest that the same dynamics that allows a family to become excessively indebted to banks and credit card companies, are very similar to the dynamics of a city that becomes excessively indebted.  Whether the primary causes of gross indebtedness is a certain measure of stupidity, theft, obsession with spending carelessly, perhaps for items not really needed, or simply not enough family income (taxes for a city) ... both the family and the city suffer from a failure of leadership; that is, the parents (perhaps one parent) and the city government, usually as shared by the city council and the mayor... who, apparently is supposed to have a good measure of influence .. as would a father, or a strong mother. 

But there is much more .... will continue ... must open up soon.  Sorry ... will be back .. hopefully with ideas making sense. 

[vicupstate]

^^ The example of a family that is squeezed to pay it's mortgage refinancing a 15 year mortgage into a 30 year mortgage is pretty parallel.  It adds to the total overall cost long term, but gives some financial relief in the short term.   In the future when the 15 year mortgage would have been paid off, but the 30 year mortgage is still being paid, the family may not be able to pay for Junior's college tuition.   

[ronchamblin]

My god Vicupstate (there are thousands out there ... take your pick) ... what an ongoing mass of argument since your above post about the tax issue.  You've suggested (not that you agree with it) a possible shift of the debt from the current (and  earlier) population, who actually created it, to a future population (our children and grandchildren), who did not.

As indicated earlier, I choose to remain ignorant of most details surrounding the pension debt / sales tax / property tax issue simply because I am convinced that the details are infected with falsities and error ... along with generous quantities of bullshit ... all conspiring to confuse the mind ... to destroy attempts at common and good sense ... and thus, to prevent proper conclusions and decisions.  The bullshit on the front page of the TU today gives evidence of the degree to which the media can be persuaded by their favorites in power to confuse and persuade via the dissemination of bullshit. 

If one is to arrive at a sensible conclusion or solution on an issue, ignorance of details can be beneficial, as the details removed might be the very details causing error in judgement and conclusion.  False details ... created, imagined, and fabricated by individuals attempting to gain from them, have no place in the decision making process. 

Whether debt saddles a family or a city, it conspires to cripple and hobble ... to destroy either entity's ability to provide the necessities of life ... whether the important and infrastructural, or the more optional cultural. 

Excessive debt, whether in a family or a city, is very seldom caused by an act of one of the gods, but more often arrives via irresponsibility, foolishness, or self-centered behaviors of the established favorites in power.  In any case, excessive debt can and must be removed ... immediately and not later ... by good sense, sacrifice, hard work, and a determination to do so.

Failure to remove city debt with immediate tax action not only enhances the wealth of banks and stockholders who prosper excessively because of it, but delaying payment provides the illusion ... as a consequence of low taxes ... that all is good ... that the current politicians are keeping with the absurd position they promised ... which was to avoid raising taxes. 

Whereas family debt is in most cases caused by parents, the individuals responsible for city debt are usually multiple, the names obscured by the passage of time ... hidden behind shady data ... obscured behind a preponderance of bullshit. (Can one tell ... I love that word for some reason.)     

But no matter who endures and suffers excessive debt, the important objective is to unshackle the victim ... to remove debt as quickly as possible so as to prevent unnecessary and excessive interest paid to the predatory and insatiable lending institutions.

For a family, the most effective method of debt removal is for a parent or an older child to obtain more income (tax revenue for a city) via a higher paying job or a second job, at least until the debt is paid down.  For both the family and the city, the only real option for efficient and immediate debt removal is an immediate increased income. Bankruptcy is an option too, but things aren't there yet with the city.  Be patient ... as this option will become ever so real if the city does not take immediate action to raise taxes.

Whereas income for a family is via a job or a business, income for a city is via taxes from citizens.  Therefore, if follows that a city, in order to remove excessive debt, must increase taxes.  Anyone suggesting otherwise is either a fool or a politician thinking only the fallout the higher taxes would have on his or her chances for election or reelection.   

For any individual or politician to suggest anything other than immediate increased taxes in order to reduce the debt burden on the city and its citizens is not only an admission of a measure of stupidity ... it is gross irresponsibility.  Prolongation of debt elimination is to shift the burden of debt to the future citizens ... our children and grandchildren ... who had nothing to do with the creation of it.

A politician maneuvering to avoid raising taxes simply because he or she is a "conservative", or because of election promises is a shameful admission of selfishness; and is an action similar to a father unwilling to work a higher paying job, or to increase his working hours from 30 to 40 ... all for selfish motives.

We might imagine parents who have allowed the accumulation of excessive and burdening debt, with payments so high that the family can barely gain the necessities of life.  Can we imagine parents postponing its removal by not aggressively working to do so ... as they shift the burden ... ever increasing with interest ... to their children?  A parent unwilling to work more hours deprives the children of a proper education, and in general, a reasonable quality of life.

Therefore, who can agree with a parent who, when able to do so, avoids immediately increasing work hours from 30 to 40 so as to remove family debt?  And what sensible justification is there for postponing the crucial reduction of city debt by not having an immediate increase in taxes? 

Apparently the most important sources for increased city revenue include the sales tax and the property tax.  If I understand correctly, most talk of continuing the existing sales tax of 7% when the current term of it ends a few years down the road.  Would a concerned and able father, saddled with heavy family debt, delay increasing his hours immediately from 30 to 40 for ten years so he can have more leisure for fishing and play?  Certainly not ... unless he was excessively selfish and a little stupid.

At the moment, I have no idea if there is room for partial removal of the pension debt ... perhaps via negotiation for a reduction of obligations to retiring individuals.  The predicament into which the city has fallen demands sacrifices from all fronts ... somewhat as if the city was at war. 

How many citizens would agree to both an "immediate" small increase in the sales tax ... to perhaps 7.25% ... and a small increase in the property tax?  Some might perceive the practicality of doing so ... some might be so financially down that they cannot extend another penny to an increase, and some might be so self-centered and myopic that they cannot see past the next day's enjoyment of consuming "their" American Dream.   

Obsessions with the achievement of wealth, power, and leisure (as promoted by our bimbo brained media and political mediocrities) has the effect of restricting upon one's mind the quality of concern for one's fellow citizen ... one's concern for community ... for our city.

I pay somewhere around $50,000 or $60,000 (it's all a blur) in business related property taxes per year, and I would be willing to pay a reasonable increase ... call if a sacrifice or a contribution ... to lowering the city debt.  Why do I have this opinion?  It is certainly not because I am a "good" person.  It is because I am a practical person who understands that I am a part of the city ... a citizen.  Inclined to the socialist / atheist frame of mind, I perceive negatives and deprivations that our citizens must endure because of the predicament of city debt, and therefore I'm persuaded to perceive the importance of immediately reducing the horrendous debt that currently shackles the city. 

Sound too simple?  Work harder and longer.  Pay the bills first, then contemplate and act upon the many options before you .. options that emerge simply because you've been freed from the crushing debt.  I suspect that most citizens tire of the fact that our city has very few options for quality of life improvement of all citizens ... simply because the crushing debt kills those options. 

But what of foolish expenditures of the tax revenue?  On a federal level, many cringe at the idea of paying taxes to support a bloated military ... a military / corporate partnership that has ... for profit ... habitually sought foreign adventures without good cause.  So .... what of past foolish decisions regarding the expenditure of city revenue?  There is a relationship between the federal budget for the military, and the city budget for the sheriff's office.  But that's for another time.  Both institutions are monsters that should be slayed by common sense and proper control ... as they both have run away ... maintained at twice the size they should be via lies, secrecy, inefficiencies, a tendency to bloat, and to engage machinations for power and profit.   

Why should the average citizen agree to an immediate increase in sales / property taxes?  Are they responsible for the debt predicament into which the city has fallen?  Certainly they are.  Who else would be ... one of the gods?  Who allowed incompetents, through machinations for their personal benefit, to create or allow the debt?  Does the citizen vote with good sense to prevent mental mediocrities or power monsters from gaining political office?  Does the citizen give attention to ongoing issues and decisions affecting the expenditure of the city budget?  A citizenry that has accepted and enjoyed a continual mental daze by the drugs conveyed via a bimbo brained media / television industry ... by an insane rush to consume the American Dream, at any cost ...  deserves to confront reality ... which just might include the immediate payment of a debt.   

What determines the ease with which citizens can be convinced of the necessity for an immediate increase in taxes?  Surely the most convincing arguments are that the increased revenue will not be used foolishly, but that it will be used aggressively to remove the current debt.  A reasonable citizen should realize the importance of an immediate increase in city income by way of increased taxes ... just as a family member would understand the necessity of working more hours to gain income for debt removal.  For both the city and the family, the goal is "survival"; that is, if survival includes the idea of an acceptable quality of life for the majority of citizens ... if survival includes the journey of a city long overdue for a real renaissance in industry and culture. 

To continue to avoid the only solution ... to continue to play politics ... is to destroy any hope of our city becoming what it could be ... what it should be ... what it must be.     

Sorry for repetition on some points.  Gonna get ready to open up.