Wreckage found off Cape Canaveral linked to lost French colony of Fort Caroline

[Tacachale]

Wreckage found off Cape Canaveral linked to lost French colony of Fort Caroline

By Matt Soergel Wed, Aug 17, 2016 @ 4:13 pm | updated Wed, Aug 17, 2016 @ 5:57 pm

A private treasure salvage company says it's found a shipwreck, buried in sand under the ocean off Cape Canaveral, that could be linked to the lost French colony of Fort Caroline.

Global Marine Exploration Inc. has discovered scattered evidence of a historic wreck that includes some tantalizing clues: three French bronze cannons, at least one of which has markings from the time of the colony, and a French granite monument adorned with that country's coat of arms.

The monument is similar to the one French captain Jean Ribault put near the mouth of the St. Johns River in 1562 as he staked his nation's claim to Florida. Its whereabouts have been a mystery for centuries.

The artifacts remain under the sand until the proper permits can be obtained, so details are sketchy.

Even so, the find is of huge significance, said University of North Florida archaeologist Robert "Buzz" Thunen, who was not part of the search effort.

"This is Christmas, Thanksgiving and New Year all rolled into one. And the 4th of July," he said. "It's a big deal for Florida."

http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2016-08-17/story/wreckage-found-cape-canaveral-linked-lost-french-colony-fort-caroline

[Adam White]

via Imgflip Meme Generator

[Gunnar]

LOL 

[Ocklawaha]

As a well published historian, I always find it curious that in so many of these historical tales, many of them wildly unbelievable, the academic community ends up eating crow and admitting that 'XXX' actually happened. Black men designing/engineering Confederate Ironclads? A man saved from a bullet by his lucky coin? A lost French fleet?  It will be interesting to see if history repeats itself in this find.

[Kerry]

As a well published historian, I always find it curious that in so many of these historical tales, many of them wildly unbelievable, the academic community ends up eating crow and admitting that 'XXX' actually happened. Black men designing/engineering Confederate Ironclads? A man saved from a bullet by his lucky coin? A lost French fleet?  It will be interesting to see if history repeats itself in this find.

Agree 100%.  I have a minor in the History of Science and one thing I learned is, given enough time everyone is eventually proven wrong.  Alas, historians lag way behind astronomers in the crow eating department.  How many times have we read "this will change everything we know about the universe", but it never does.

[Adam White]

Actual historians or untrained people who like stuff and write books about it? I don't think historians are any worse when it comes to 'eating crow' than any other field.

[spuwho]

As a well published historian, I always find it curious that in so many of these historical tales, many of them wildly unbelievable, the academic community ends up eating crow and admitting that 'XXX' actually happened. Black men designing/engineering Confederate Ironclads? A man saved from a bullet by his lucky coin? A lost French fleet?  It will be interesting to see if history repeats itself in this find.

Agree 100%.  I have a minor in the History of Science and one thing I learned is, given enough time everyone is eventually proven wrong.  Alas, historians lag way behind astronomers in the crow eating department.  How many times have we read "this will change everything we know about the universe", but it never does.

Because astronomers and sub-atomic physics scientists are acutely aware that our knowledge of the extra and inner universe is very limited, so every quark they bust open, or Pluto the pass or Kepler they scan, will always appear as a miraculous discovery for them, since they have waited 25 years of their career to get the answer and 45 years awaiting the government funding.

Alan Stern first came up with the Pluto flyby idea in 1989 while in graduate school.

[Tacachale]

I don't think anyone ever doubted that wreckage from Ribault's fleet might be found. There's a good historical record of what happened to it: it was wrecked in a squall trying to attack the St. Augustine settlement in September 1565 (enabling the Spanish to march overland and capture Fort Caroline). While previous searches hadn't found it yet, it's a big ocean out there.

Of course, it's possible these ships aren't actually Ribault's. The president of the salvaging company actually believes they're Spanish or English ships as he thinks they seem bigger than the ones Ribault had. However, they have items on board that are definitely French, like this cannon with the Fleur de Lis:



Either way, it seems almost certain that those items came from French Florida, as there weren't other French settlements around that time. The article doesn't say this directly, but GME has an incentive for the ships *not* to be French. In contrast to Spain, France generally claims ownership of recovered shipwrecks. According to the article, Chuck Meide and historian John de Bry think it's more likely the French fleet based on the historical record, which is pretty convincing to me. I guess we'll know more before too long.

[Tacachale]

France has made an official claim on the fleet.

Posted November 29, 2016 05:34 pm - Updated November 30, 2016 05:14 pm
By Matt Soergel matt.soergel@jacksonville.com
France claims rights to shipwreck linked to lost colony of Fort Caroline

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In the shallow waters off Cape Canaveral a fleur de lis design is seen on a bronze cannon thought by some to be from ships of a 1565 French fleet. (Provided by Global Marine Explorations Inc.)
France has filed a legal claim to an ancient shipwreck discovered off Cape Canaveral, saying it was part of the French fleet that in 1565 went to the aid of that country's doomed colony at Fort Caroline in Jacksonville.

That follows a claim by the private treasure salvage company that found the wreck, and seems likely to lead to a dispute in U.S. District Court in Orlando over ownership of the artifacts.

It would be a high-stakes battle: A state archaeology report says the wreck, if it is indeed connected to the French fleet, "would be of immense archaeological significance."

The wreckage includes at least one particularly spectacular artifact — a granite monument adorned with a symbol of France's coat of arms, the fleur-de-lis. It's similar to the one, never discovered, that French Capt. Jean Ribault left at the mouth of the St. Johns River in 1562 to stake a claim to Florida.

"That's your crown jewel there, that's your holy grail," said Chuck Meide, a marine archaeologist who led a 2014 expedition that searched for, but did not find, the lost fleet. "I never would have dreamed this."

That marker's not likely to be the one left at Jacksonville, however, said Meide. Evidence though shows Ribault's 1565 fleet carried several other stone markers to be used in its exploration of the New World, he said.

Meide, director of the maritime archaeological program at the St. Augustine Lighthouse & Museum, is among those who believe the wreck is that of the Trinité, Ribault's flagship, which played a fateful role in the early history of the New World.

...

http://jacksonville.com/florida/2016-11-29/france-claims-rights-shipwreck-linked-lost-colony-fort-caroline

[Tacachale]

France's claim is based on the U.S. Sunken Military Craft Act, which states that any ship that sailed under the French flag is property of the French Republic, even if it sank (hundreds of years ago). Their reasoning behind the claim is that the stuff is clearly from Fort Caroline.

Global Marine Exploration, the salvaging company, is arguing that the ship is a (previously undocumented) Spanish or British merchant vessel that was just carrying loot from Fort Caroline to Cuba. This is a stretch, but they have an incentive to say this, as if it's a merchant ship rather than a military one, they get to keep 80% of the find. Florida would get the other 20%.

We're better off if France wins out. Though they get the ownership, by long-standing precedent, they allow the artifacts from their wrecks be displayed where they were found. If Global Marine Exploration gets it, they would sell their 80% to the highest bidder. To keep any of it besides the 20%, Florida would have to pay them:

...

The distinction is crucial: If the wreck is of a merchant vessel, Global Maritime Exploration, which had a state permit to look for wrecks, would be entitled to 80 percent of what is found. The state would get 20 percent.

If it is determined to be part the royal French fleet, however, France could be granted ownership of it.

That would make it likely that the artifacts, once salvaged, would be displayed in public in Florida, said Meide.

He worked on a French wreck off the coast of Texas that was claimed by France, which then allowed the artifacts to remain in that state, where they are now prized exhibits in several museums.

"The law seems to be on the side of France, which means it's on the side of the people of Florida," Meide said.

The outcome of the coming court case will be of the utmost significance, he said. "This is the oldest French shipwreck in the entire New World, from the tip of South America to Canada. This is the first time you had Europeans seeking religious freedom in the New World. This is the American story. This is the birth of Florida ... it's the origin story."

http://jacksonville.com/florida/2016-11-29/france-claims-rights-shipwreck-linked-lost-colony-fort-caroline

[Redbaron616]

Seems that after 100 years or less of a country's loss of a ship and not actively looking for it, that country's claim should be voided.

Playing devil's advocate, if these were on a Spanish or English ship, don't the cannons now believe to those countries? 

[Tacachale]

Seems that after 100 years or less of a country's loss of a ship and not actively looking for it, that country's claim should be voided.

Playing devil's advocate, if these were on a Spanish or English ship, don't the cannons now believe to those countries? 

My understanding is that those countries don't make the same claims on shipwrecks that France does. The upside of France's claim is that it usually allows most artifacts to stay with the discovering country. If it were a Spanish or English ship (it's not), the state only gets 20% of the collection and the salvager gets to break up the other 80% and sell it to the highest bidder. In other words, if it's France's ship (as all evidence indicates it is), Florida gets to display the artifacts for free. Otherwise, we get 20% and have to struggle to outbid everyone else for the rest.

[Tacachale]

Good news on this story: the courts have ruled that the wreckage is Ribaults and that they belong to France. That means the State of Florida will get to display the artifacts for free. The the judge had ruled with the salvager, the state would only get part of the artifacts and would have to bid on the rest from the salvager.

Court gives France rights to ancient shipwreck linked to Fort Caroline colony

By Matt Soergel
Posted Jul 6, 2018 at 4:48 PM Updated Jul 6, 2018 at 5:49 PM

A granite monument bearing the symbol of France's coat of arms, the fleur-de-lis, disappeared 453 years ago just off Cape Canaveral, as the ship carrying it sank in a hurricane that changed the course of history.

After a ruling in U.S. District Court in Orlando, the monument may one day be lifted from the water and taken, finally, the last few yards to America.

If so, it would a provide a tangible link to the history of the doomed French colony of Fort Caroline in what would become Jacksonville, an early European effort to settle the New World that's often overlooked in history books.

It's a spectacular find, a monument that's similar to the one, never discovered, that French captain Jean Ribault left at the mouth of the St. Johns River in 1562 to stake a claim to Florida.

It was among the artifacts on an ancient shipwreck that has been the subject of a dispute between the government of France and the private treasure salvage company that found it.

France said the wrecked ship was part of their Royal Navy and the flagship of Ribault, who came back to Florida in 1565 to reinforce the struggling French at Fort Caroline. Under the U.S. Sunken Military Act, any ship that sailed for another country — no matter how old — still belongs to that country.

The salvage company, Global Marine Exploration Inc., argued that the shipwreck's identity couldn't be established, and so it had the rights to claim it.

It was a high-stakes case, watched on the both sides of the Atlantic. After all, as a state archaeological report in 2016 said, if the wreck were proven to be part of Ribault's French fleet, it "would be of immense archaeological significance."

Last week, U.S. Magistrate Judge Karla Spaulding ruled in favor of France, concluding emphatically that the wreck is indeed Ribault's flagship, la Trinité, and so is now clearly the protected property of France. The state of Florida had been backing France in its efforts.

...

From the Florida Times-Union.

http://www.jacksonville.com/news/20180706/court-gives-france-rights-to-ancient-shipwreck-linked-to-fort-caroline-colony