Curry warns of 30-percent property tax increase if sales tax idea not supported

[MusicMan]

All the while the City continues to sit on millions of dollars of real estate with no plan to return it to private hands, providing instant cash flow and a stronger tax base.

[Kerry]

All the while the City continues to sit on millions of dollars of real estate with no plan to return it to private hands, providing instant cash flow and a stronger tax base.

Probably holding on to it so they can give it away to some future company promising jobs, who then will be rebated X years' worth of property taxes.  Then we sit around and wonder why the City is broke.

[Non-RedNeck Westsider]

This sounds like a scare tactic and nothing more.

[Tacachale]

Unfortunately it's not really a scare tactic, it's what will have to happen if the sales tax isn't passed. And this board aside, I tend to doubt that the majority of people in Duval County would really be thrilled getting a 30% property tax hike all in one term (and more likely, in one year).

[Non-RedNeck Westsider]

Unfortunately it's not really a scare tactic, it's what will have to happen if the sales tax isn't passed. And this board aside, I tend to doubt that the majority of people in Duval County would really be thrilled getting a 30% property tax hike all in one term (and more likely, in one year).

And this board aside, I tend to doubt that the majority of the people in Duval county really have enough knowledge about the situation, proposed fixes and the potential outcomes.

So when our No-New-Tax-At-All-Costs Republican mayor is throwing a significant number out there v/s the alternative net-zero tax increase in an if-then-else function, it comes across to me as a scare tactic.

[Tacachale]

Unfortunately it's not really a scare tactic, it's what will have to happen if the sales tax isn't passed. And this board aside, I tend to doubt that the majority of people in Duval County would really be thrilled getting a 30% property tax hike all in one term (and more likely, in one year).

It isn't what will have to happen, it is what Curry will suggest happening.

The numbers provided by the Times Union analysis didn't magically change just because he's launched a public relations campaign.

It's basic math. The Times-Union says that one mill should generate about $47.5 million in revenue. We're paying $260 million into the pension this year. The Times-Union says a 30% increase over our current 11.44 millage rate - 3.43 mills - would generate $163 million. And that's still far short of what we're paying this year. How much of an increase do you estimate it will take to get us to a workable contribution?

[TheCat]

I can't tell if Jacksonville is being punked or if this is a real plan.

Taca, over the next 15 years how are we going to pay the obligation before the tax kicks in?

The obligation is still there and even when the sales tax kicks in we'll still have to pay from the general budget.

Even if they figure out an accounting scheme (read debt) to pay the obligation over the next 15 years, it's not going to be for the whole annual amount. It will be for some portion of the amount.

Ultimately, we have to ask how much are we trying to free up over the next 15 years...maybe just 1 mill worth.

[brainstormer]

A real leader would admit that not promising tax increases was irresponsible, in much the same way the pension board was irresponsible and past city administrations have been irresponsible. City leaders raided pensions so they wouldn't have to raise taxes or cut services. It's time our leaders leveled with citizens. We need moderate property tax increases over the next 15 years AND a sales tax funding source to actually make progress at meeting our obligations. I'm OK with the sales tax starting in 15 years. I'm against Curry because of his scare tactics and lack of transparency regarding how we fund our obligations for the next 15 years until 2030. Borrowing now to pay it back in 15 years is completely irresponsible.

[spuwho]

FWIW:

WOKV reported today that the Duval County Property Assessor announced that due to rising property values, COJ will take in $22 Million additional revenue in the next year.

That is about $55 per property average across the county.

So where is that going?

[mtraininjax]

And this board aside, I tend to doubt that the majority of people in Duval County would really be thrilled getting a 30% property tax hike all in one term (and more likely, in one year).

30% is just the beginning, once the property tax escalator is in play, the crazies at the Times Union - Littlepage - will lobby to use it like a piggybank to pay for everything, buying new land, new 100 million dollar high schools, crazy trains, etc.

Its Pandora's box. Once opened, it will never be shut.

[strider]

It seems to me this is about paying off the pension debt as opposed to paying the entire payment, which is made up of both the regular annual obligation on the debt. From what I have read, the debt is about 55 to 60% of the total payment due this budget year.

That also tells me to truly fix the pension issue, we need to have a new plan which will be up to the unions as much as anything and so is far from a guarantee.

The sale tax is nothing but a way to borrow monies.  I have only seen two scenarios, one in which the budget payment is partly paid on paper by using funny math and the future funds collected by the sales tax and one where bonds are issued against the future collection of the sales tax.  Both seem likely to grossly increase the overall costs of the pension to the tax payers through borrowing costs and both do not solve the problem today but simply continues to push the problem down the road.

The plan presented does not fix anything but does seem to allow the city leadership and their best friends to continue business as usual and not the business that has the best interests of Jacksonville in mind.

[TheCat]

I can't tell if Jacksonville is being punked or if this is a real plan.

Taca, over the next 15 years how are we going to pay the obligation before the tax kicks in?

The obligation is still there and even when the sales tax kicks in we'll still have to pay from the general budget.

Even if they figure out an accounting scheme (read debt) to pay the obligation over the next 15 years, it's not going to be for the whole annual amount. It will be for some portion of the amount.

Ultimately, we have to ask how much are we trying to free up over the next 15 years...maybe just 1 mill worth.

Taca, I'm hoping you have insight on this.

[Tacachale]

I can't tell if Jacksonville is being punked or if this is a real plan.

Taca, over the next 15 years how are we going to pay the obligation before the tax kicks in?

The obligation is still there and even when the sales tax kicks in we'll still have to pay from the general budget.

Even if they figure out an accounting scheme (read debt) to pay the obligation over the next 15 years, it's not going to be for the whole annual amount. It will be for some portion of the amount.

Ultimately, we have to ask how much are we trying to free up over the next 15 years...maybe just 1 mill worth.

Taca, I'm hoping you have insight on this.

Yes, I think I've said it on the other threads. The main savings will come from having a dedicated funding source. The annual payment schedule isn't just estimated based on this year, but decades in advance. They're as high as they are now because there's no other revenue going in, now or in the future. Adding dedicated revenue - especially as it can't be diverted elsewhere - will reduce the annual payments over the long term (currently, they're actually continuing to *escalate*).

My understanding is that there are also opportunities to leverage the expected income for larger lump sum payments now. For instance, taking out bonds, which would have the effect of trading the pension debt for more manageable bond debt. It doesn't sound like this is set yet, and it could be something decided year to year. However, I imagine Curry will pursue something along the lines of increasing the payment now, to free up money for other services.

[Know Growth]

While reading the FTU comments, I noticed someone added a link to an opposition website:

http://www.just-vote-no.com/

What's everyone's thoughts about the proposed sales tax or having a 30 percent property tax rate increase?

Apparently during Delaney Better Jacksonville euphoria we should have been focused on Pension.

30 % property tax increase and I give my Avondale wonderful place the middle finger,along with all of Duval.

I enjoyed personal,rambling conversations with our immediate past COF Fire Chief........discussions about Jacksonville's curious brand of tax and spend Conservatives.

And beyond that,there might be certain realities about Jacksonville that will drive such tax increase.

And what's up with the projections that Jacksonville will become predominantly Black?

We are simply headed to where we have been heading.

[TheCat]

A half-penny sales tax - the same we're paying now - will be a lot less painful than hiking property taxes by 30%. As I've said elsewhere, there's also no way to commit a sales tax hike to the pension crisis; future mayors could reappropriate it elsewhere.

I don't know who's behind that website, but if they're really suggesting we can fix this issue without new revenue, it's unreasonable.

We have to applaud the political savvy of our mayor. He makes us feel more concerned about the potential for future unreliable politicians and what they'll do to the pension then what the current politicians are planning for the pension.; a plan being praised for its vagueness and lack of clarity.

Once again, one of my favorite books, Animal Farm, comes to mind. It seems the authoritarian piggies would appease the worker beasts with statements similar to those coming from the mayor's office and city council. Something like,  "details bad. ambiguity good."