Women's club infested with crazy destructive species of Formosan termites.

[JaxUnicorn]

Formosan termites are a version of subterranean termites and as such, live in the ground.  Here's my question: 

How in the heck is demolishing the historic building going to destroy the 'crazy destructive species of Formosan termites'? 

[Burnbabyburn]

Should make a great bonfire. Should we save it for July 4?

[Burnbabyburn]

However, as I think it is best to reach out as PSOS, I will defer to what the others want to do and how they want to do it.

What is a PSOS? I know what a POS is. Is that the plural form?

[johncb]

I thought heart pine wood was impervious to termites ?

[CutterJ]

Why did the Cummer not purchase a termite bond when they acquired this property? It would be a shame to see the neighborhood loose this landmark due to this oversight.

[strider]

I thought heart pine wood was impervious to termites ?

Just a myth.  Real heart pine is less susceptible or at least may have been when first cut (as in: so I have been told...) than other woods, but for a fact today if the conditions are right, the subterranean termites like it as much as anything.  Dry wood termites seems to actually prefer it!  They often eat the fancy wood work first - like your floors, trim, windows and doors.

What I will say about the old heart pine structures, a pack of termites (yeah, probably not the right word.) can just about make a ten year old 2x4 totally disappear.  I often see 100 year old 2x4's with all of the sapwood totally gone and the wood retains some strength because there is probably 30 to 40 years of growth in a 100 year old 2x4 and maybe 4 to 6 years in a new one. I'm sure there are experts out here that can explain it much better than I but the type of pine and length of time it had to grow makes the big difference today.  You can actually say, wood isn't what it used to be.  Newest building codes actually changed loads because of it.  So, newer wood construction can be said to be more susceptible to termites than the historic structures are.

Termites are not the only pest we need to worry about here in Florida.  Lots of little pests eat wood and do so with veracity. 

While all the news outlets seem to be quoting folks from the Cummer with saying it's demo time, Stephen is saying those same folks from the Cummer are saying otherwise.  Wouldn't it be nice that if they were earlier convinced that demo was the solution, once they saw that much of the public would rather not loose this building, they are now willing to stop and take another look at things? Perhaps there is hope that a innovative solution to save the building can be found and embraced.

And for those that may not know, PSOS is Preservation SOS. While originally formed to combat demolitions that happen in Historic Springfield, the organization has worked hard to stop or at least slow down needless demolitions all over Jacksonville.

[Bugman]

The loss of the building is enormous (along with the $7 million invested in acquisition and restoration of the exterior of the building itself.)

However the bigger  picture for the entire neighborhood is that particular species of termite itself.  They aren't the normal subterranean termite that most of us are aware of.  They are voracious eaters; and don't just eat wood, they eat anything that gets in the way of getting to the wood.

Homeowners and business owners in the entire neighborhood should be very afraid.  It's time to call your personal pest control service for an inspection and begin prevention if you haven't already.
The loss of one building is bad, the loss of multiple buildings in the historic district to this pest would be worse. 

In the end, cutting losses and moving forward is the right thing to do.  The Cummer has part of it's collection in storage and needs room to expand for multiple reasons.  I am hopeful that the new building will blend in with the architecture and style of the neighborhood.

[civil42806]

Why did the Cummer not purchase a termite bond when they acquired this property? It would be a shame to see the neighborhood loose this landmark due to this oversight.

Most termite bonds exclude formosan termite infestations

[strider]

Unfortunately, Stephen was right, my post was inaccurate.  The Cummer folks have not changed their minds and if Stephen was ever right in the opinion that they might change from a position of a need for demolition, the most recent information posted by Stephen confirms it is indeed demo time.

Perhaps it is time to reflect upon what level of new makes a contributing historic structure new rather than the historic building it once was.

The Bostwich building, when it opens as the Cowford Chop House, will it be a new building that used bits and pieces of a once Historic Landmark or will be be a great save? 

Based solely on the information released publicly and realizing that information released by those wishing to get approval for a demolition is often biased to that end, it does appear that any "save" of the Woman's Club would result in the saving of the skin of a Historic Landmark and not much else.  The fear factor here will be great and little to no wood to feed the termites would be the only way to bring a high comfort level that the issue would not return.

While I am confident that a new structure could be built to give us the appearance of the Woman's Club, at what point does it stop being the Woman's Club? 

If appearance is what matters and the Bostwick is still a great saved landmark, then why all the fuss about saving one single window on the part of the HPC?

While Jacksonville may indeed loose a great landmark, we can certainly gain from a proper and frank discussion and perhaps move Jacksonville's current arbitrary and capricious enforcement of the Historic Guidelines into a fair and useful place.

[strider]

Stephen, stop it.  You told me the person I should talk to was not available until Monday so why try to "hit" me over this?  I have only repeated what every single news outlet and the Cummer folks themselves have already said. Get it together man!

Just Kidding! Sort of.

Please re-read my post and see that I did not insult or call names and that it actually is accurate to everything you posted.  And perhaps rather than somehow find something offensive were there isn't anything, make real comments about what could be a real conversation over demolitions and why and how they happen.

Or let's have a stupid shit fight, it might be fun after all! Saturday's on MJ are kinda of slow.

[strider]

Perhaps it is time to reflect upon what level of new makes a contributing historic structure new rather than the historic building it once was.

The Bostwich building, when it opens as the Cowford Chop House, will it be a new building that used bits and pieces of a once Historic Landmark or will be be a great save?

Based solely on the information released publicly and realizing that information released by those wishing to get approval for a demolition is often biased to that end, it does appear that any "save" of the Woman's Club would result in the saving of the skin of a Historic Landmark and not much else.  The fear factor here will be great and little to no wood to feed the termites would be the only way to bring a high comfort level that the issue would not return.

While I am confident that a new structure could be built to give us the appearance of the Woman's Club, at what point does it stop being the Woman's Club?

If appearance is what matters and the Bostwick is still a great saved landmark, then why all the fuss about saving one single window on the part of the HPC?

While Jacksonville may indeed loose a great landmark, we can certainly gain from a proper and frank discussion and perhaps move Jacksonville's current arbitrary and capricious enforcement of the Historic Guidelines into a fair and useful place.

[Kay]

The problem is that the building (which was free of termites four years ago) hasn't been infected with regular local variety termites.  Its been infested by a particularly nasty strain of formosan termite.  You can't simply bag the building and fumigate them. They don't breed the way that our indigenous termites breed, and bagging the building kills a generation of them, but even with the most thorough fumigation, the entire building is likely to be reinfested within six months.

Here are some questions I have and some information I've received by folks researching the property and the termite issue.  Has Cummer actually installed the bait traps since they supposedly discovered the problem 9 months ago.  Did they have a termite bond on the building and if not, why not?  When Cummer received state funds to help renovate the building, those funds came with a 10-year covenant to preserve the building.  That covenant expired in January 2016.  Formosan termites can be killed with the same stuff that kills other kinds of termites.  So why wouldn't a bond cover all termites if you had a bond?  Can the building be saved and restored but Cummer is choosing not to or can it really not be saved?

[Kay]

Did they get a termite bond when they treated in 2008?  I'm very confused about this as information I've gotten is that a bond would cover termites period, not exclude Formosan.  Did they have the building specifically inspected for termites when it was sitting there for years after?

[strider]

Just some light reading on the Formosan Termite:

http://www.pestworld.org/pest-guide/termites/formosan-termites/

http://www.epestsupply.com/formosan_termites.php#map

http://www.termite.com/termites/formosan-subterranean-termite.html


Note that it is the shear size of the colonies and their more aggressive nature that makes them so much worse than "regular" subterranean termites.  They can not chew through brick and concrete as some believe.  They still need a moisture source to thrive.  They can be killed and the same basic treatments that work on our "regular" termites work on them, but again, it is the huge size of the colony, which can takes years to mature, that causes the biggest stumbling block to controlling them.

A good article:

http://www.clemson.edu/cafls/departments/esps/factsheets/household_structural/formosan_subterranean_termites_hs26.html

Are Formosan subterranean termites, super termites, resistant to termiticides? No. Termites  are not resistant to any insecticides. On average, one Formosan termite worker is the same as a native subterranean termite worker. A bigger problem with Formosan subterranean termites is their potential colony size. Researchers often find Formosan subterranean termite colonies are larger than native subterranean termite colonies. It is possible to have Formosan subterranean termite colonies with several million workers. More workers means more individuals can feed on a structure at a given time. It also means that more individuals may be tunneling and foraging around a building, providing an increased chance of Formosan subterranean termites finding a weakness in a termite treatment.

Don't Formosan subterranean termites make nests with no ground contact? They can, but not as often as most people think. An intensive survey of 50 structures infested with Formosan subterranean termites in Charleston, showed that 94% of the buildings were infested from ground-based colonies. Only 6% were infested by aerial colonies. An above-ground moisture source was the key component for Formosan subterranean termites to establish an aerial nest. Soil treatments will not impact aerial nests, but based on the Charleston study, approximately 95% of the time, Formosans subterranean termites will be invading a structure from the ground.

Can Formosan subterranean termites infest live trees? Yes. Survey data from around the United States reports Formosan subterranean termites in live trees. In Charleston, researchers reported Formosan subterranean termites in 17 different tree species. In most cases, the presence of termites in trees is a secondary indication of a primary problem with the tree due to disease, injury or other pests. However, like a weakness in a termiticide treatment, Formosan subterranean termites will take advantage of a weakness in a tree.

......

Can Formosan subterranean termites be effectively controlled? Yes. Professional-use termiticides, baits and wood treatments are effective against Formosan termites at the same concentration levels used for native subterranean termites. Remember, individual Formosan workers are not resistant to insecticides and they are not "super termites". Thus professional-use products do not have special, higher concentration recommendations for Formosan subterranean termites over native subterranean termites. However, it is very important that soil and wood treatments be applied properly (labeled concentrations and volumes) and that baiting systems be meticulously monitored. Seldom is it possible for homeowners to inspect and effectively self-treat their own house for termites without the proper training, equipment and knowledge of termite behavior and habits.

Should I be frightened of Formosan subterranean termites? No. Do not underestimate their abilities, but there is no reason to fear Formosan subterranean termites.  Pest management professionals have multiple control methods that are effective, and new and improved methods are being developed.

[strider]

Here's a older (1998) article that talks about New Orleans.  It is a bit more doom and gloom than many of the newer articles.

http://agresearchmag.ars.usda.gov/1998/oct/term

And a newer one that talks about biology a bit more.

http://www.lsuagcenter.com/topics/environment/insects/termites/formosan_termites/native_formosan/comparison-of-native-and-formosan-subterranean-termites-biology-ecology-and-methods-of-control

And a reminder as to why we are even bothering to read about Formosan Termtes:

http://jacksonville.com/entertainment/arts/2016-04-26/story/termite-infestation-forces-cummer-demolish-womans-club

And from the Cummer itself:

http://www.cummermuseum.org/content/cummer-museum-womans-club-building

Q: Why is the Cummer Museum demolishing the Woman's Club building?
A:

The building's wood interior, including its below-ground 89-year-old wooden foundation and basement, is infested with Formosan subterranean termites, a particularly destructive species that is nearly impossible to eradicate. There are substantial underground colonies in and around the building.

There are ways to treat for Formosan termite infestation and some have been tried in New Orleans and other cities. However, there is no guarantee the termites won't return and none of the pest control companies consulted were willing to provide a bond against Formosan termite damage. Re-infestation is a common problem. The Cummer Museum Board of Trustees made the difficult decision that it would be fiscally irresponsible to continue spending money on the renovation project without any guarantee to cover future damages caused by termites.

Let's say there are more than one way to save the Women's CLub building but it ends up being a re-construction project along the lines of the Boswick building.  Perhaps it is time then to ask the question: If the only thing truly saved is the exterior walls, is the landmark still the landmark? Or is it a new building that looks like the landmark?

Perhaps we can find that answer by looking at the Boswick.  Does the State and the Federal Historic folks still look at the building as the Historic Landmark eligible for the various tax credits and Historic Grants?  If so, then it is still the Landmark.  In that case, should the Women's club be saved at all costs or not?