JTA Board Approves Resolution to Modernize Skyway

[Ocklawaha]

I'd say from a selling Jacksonville standpoint, whatever technology they decide to go with, if it stays elevated all the way to the Sports District (and streetcar is unique in that it is the only choice that could run on the surface or the elevated structure) it should have a terminal at Everbank Field. That Sports Complex station on the map could be the daily use station but the extra 1,000 feet or so into the stadium would make for TV opportunities unparalleled in the NFL.

[thelakelander]

The Hart Bridge ramps are wide enough to accommodate both cars and transit, if willing to allow for a road diet. In such a scenario, all you'd need is elevated infrastructure between Hogan and Liberty Streets.

[ProjectMaximus]

With a potential system like this (that is so many spokes running off of the main line), is an automated system better for proper timing?

[thelakelander]

The NYC Subway, Chicago's EL, etc. work just fine without automation. So in little ole Jax's case, I doubt this matters. However, you'll never have anything extensive locally with an APM. Not only is it cost prohibitive,  neighborhoods like Riverside and Springfield would fight to keep the elevated infrastructure from penetrating their historic boundaries. So go with APM if keeping this thing in DT only. You'll need to explore other options for anything that will actually take people to where they want to go.

[ProjectMaximus]

NYC and Chicago have long transit spines not a bunch of short little spokes. But anyway the "concern" I expressed I am assuming is not a real concern...just curious. And obviously for the sake of historic neighborhood penetration this would not fly. I guess if JTA moves forward they'll have to compromise on station and rail locations.

[thelakelander]

Notice the ends of DC's Green, Orange, Blue and Yellow lines. The "spokes" aren't really spokes.



Looking at the Skyway, you might have a "yellow" line that runs from Rosa Parks to San Marco and a "blue" line that runs from Rosa Parks to Healthy Town.

[thelakelander]

Same goes for NYC's Subway:



Look closely and you'll see several trains sharing the same track and splitting off outside of the core to serve specific parts of the city.

[thelakelander]

One more example. Miami's Metrorail before the expansion to the airport:



Now there's two lines with the opening of the airport "spoke":

[spuwho]

In the (now retired) Mathews Bridge Replacement Plan, there were choices in the proposals to use the old span as a light rail carrier with the new automobile span on each side, or if they should build a single span with a 2 track transit way in the middle.

I would assume that any LRT to EverBank could be extended in the future to cross that new span.

[Ocklawaha]

On any modern rail system, including the present automated Skyway, dispatching is largely digital. Automated systems start and stop automatically to provide seamless operations, while maned operations are controlled with trackside lighting. And yes the Skyway has the trackside lighting so it CAN BE operated with operators, there are controls under the panel in the front of each car. 

[ProjectMaximus]

Notice the ends of DC's Green, Orange, Blue and Yellow lines. The "spokes" aren't really spokes.

You're right they aren't even spokes at all. In all of your examples these last branches make up just a small portion of each line. In the future Skyway map the longest continuous line would be 7 stations long with 8 stations on spokes...that means the main line is not even the majority of the system. Currently, in fact, the longest one is just 5 stations and I'm giving benefit of the doubt that you could eventually ride from Rosa Parks all the way to the San Marco Commuter Rail transfer without changing cars.

I have no experience planning transit (just riding it) so I'm using my own ignorant logic, but to me as a layman it seems that it requires more coordination and precision to have so many cars merging from different lines/spokes/branches, whatever you wanna call it. Whether that higher level of coordination necessitates automation or not I have no clue.

On any modern rail system, including the present automated Skyway, dispatching is largely digital. Automated systems start and stop automatically to provide seamless operations, while maned operations are controlled with trackside lighting. And yes the Skyway has the trackside lighting so it CAN BE operated with operators, there are controls under the panel in the front of each car. 

That makes sense.

[thelakelander]

I have no experience planning transit (just riding it) so I'm using my own ignorant logic, but to me as a layman it seems that it requires more coordination and precision to have so many cars merging from different lines/spokes/branches, whatever you wanna call it. Whether that higher level of coordination necessitates automation or not I have no clue.

I believe the Skyway currently has less than 10 total cars and a few of those don't operate anymore. Take a look at Jax's old streetcar route maps (keep in mind, you won't have something this extensive locally with the current APM)...



Or Toronto's (North America's largest operating streetcar system)...



Or CSX's system across the eastern seaboard....



Nothing that JTA proposals will require a level of coordination or necessitate automation over what's been figured out and operating successfully for over a century.

[Adam White]

The NYC Subway, Chicago's EL, etc. work just fine without automation. So in little ole Jax's case, I doubt this matters. However, you'll never have anything extensive locally with an APM. Not only is it cost prohibitive,  neighborhoods like Riverside and Springfield would fight to keep the elevated infrastructure from penetrating their historic boundaries. So go with APM if keeping this thing in DT only. You'll need to explore other options for anything that will actually take people to where they want to go.

Isn't automatic train operation (ATO) the future for transit? I know that it is widely used on the London Underground (which is the most extensive metro system outside of China) - currently on the Northern, Jubilee and Victoria lines with plans to bring it to the Circle, District, Metroplitan and Hammersmith & City lines. In fact, I think LUL plans on enetually rolling it out across the entire network at some point in the future.

[thelakelander]

I doubt that Automated People Movers (APMs) are the future of public transit.  An APM (what the Skyway currently is) and ATO are two totally separate things. An APM is a type of grade separated public transit system. An ATO is an operational safety enhancement device.

[Adam White]

I doubt that Automated People Movers (APMs) are the future of public transit.  An APM (what the Skyway currently is) and ATO are two totally separate things. An APM is a type of grade separated public transit system. An ATO is an operational safety enhancement device.

Okay - sorry, I seem to have got the wrong end of the stick. I think that was because ProjectMaximus's question (and the resulting posts) made me think of automated traing opertation, not people movers:

With a potential system like this (that is so many spokes running off of the main line), is an automated system better for proper timing?

Edit: I think the DLR is more like a people mover and I can't see it being very useful for covering large areas and with large ridership numbers.