Proposal for small restaurants in Riverside/Avondale to serve liquor

[JaxAvondale]

http://jacksonville.com/news/2015-09-14/story/proposal-would-make-it-easier-small-restaurants-serve-liquor

Restaurants — whose kitchens stay open during business hours and earn the majority of their revenue from food sales — can sell hard alcohol without the expensive and tightly-controlled liquor licenses held by bars and package stores. But the 150-seat and 2,500 square-foot minimum requirements for the special licenses have excluded small local eateries.

The Riverside and Avondale Preservation organization and two city council members are pushing a plan to lower the requirements for restaurants in nine commercial areas in Riverside and Avondale to just 100 seats and 1,800 square feet.

[Sentient]

This was covered in the New Club - Park & King post... so I'll just put what I said here as well:

"It's not easy finding space for 100 seats and 1,800 Sq ft, and it's not that economical.  If you go to places in other cities (NY Chicago, LA SF), you see plenty of 25-60 seat places.  100 seats is a lot of seats.  and the area they are talking about doesn't lend itself to too many more than the already scoped out Casbah and Biscotti's.  This is just an end run around the interests that squelched the special legislation last session, it's not designed to actively encourage adaptive reuse of retail spaces, or spur restaurant entrepreneurship.  Which is exactly what you would expect from Jim Love and RAP."


Ask yourself why 100 seats and not 99?  Why 1,800 feet and not 1,700, or 1,600 or 1,400?


I was in Brew today, this is a typical size in most cities for a small restaurant.  They have less than 50 seats and make good use of the space.  Would they benefit from the huge mark up on liquor ($20 bottle, 25 oz = 16 1.5 oz cocktails at $8 a pop = $128 revenue or $1.25 cost and $6.75 gross profit a serving) over beer ($5 beer = $1.00 cost and $4 gross per serving)?  How many other 1,000 foot storefront spaces could be good little 30 seat restaurants if they had the ability to make ends meet with some cocktails?

Places like this 21 seater in LA http://www.laweekly.com/restaurants/no-tipping-no-reservations-no-phone-at-petit-trois-4880104



and the tiny bar area



You just don't have enough volume in jax with only food and beer to make much of a go otherwise.

[RattlerGator]

You just don't have enough volume in jax with only food and beer to make much of a go otherwise.

Damn good point.

[Tacachale]

Sounds like a great idea to me.

[Sentient]

Sounds like a great idea to me.

It's a better result than before but it is hardly great.  This is the typical Jacksonville Way that frankly actively discourages greatness.

First - try a secret self-deal among a couple of preferred business interests and cozy political relationships.

Second - have this anti competition plan blow up amidst much extra cost and recrimination.

Third - insiders hastily contrive a "compromise"  that on the surface looks better than what we had before.

Fourth - proclaim victory and commence back slapping by the pols and RAP for doing the work to "help small business be more successful".


Now a GREAT result would probably start with a careful examination of why we have the existing restrictions to begin with, develop an understanding of why these restrictions impede business growth and then come out with a fully vetted proposal that involves input from the communities, landlords, banks (financing) and entrepreneurs.


Would THAT kind of dialogue and process result in something as arbitrary as 100 seats and 1,800 sq feet?  This isn't Romania, we don't need half measures.  Why are Jacksonvillians so happy to so often get so little?

[Apache]

Sounds like a great idea to me.

It's a better result than before but it is hardly great.  This is the typical Jacksonville Way that frankly actively discourages greatness.

First - try a secret self-deal among a couple of preferred business interests and cozy political relationships.

Second - have this anti competition plan blow up amidst much extra cost and recrimination.

Third - insiders hastily contrive a "compromise"  that on the surface looks better than what we had before.

Fourth - proclaim victory and commence back slapping by the pols and RAP for doing the work to "help small business be more successful".


Now a GREAT result would probably start with a careful examination of why we have the existing restrictions to begin with, develop an understanding of why these restrictions impede business growth and then come out with a fully vetted proposal that involves input from the communities, landlords, banks (financing) and entrepreneurs.


Would THAT kind of dialogue and process result in something as arbitrary as 100 seats and 1,800 sq feet?  This isn't Romania, we don't need half measures.  Why are Jacksonvillians so happy to so often get so little?

You just pissed off a few lawyers/lobbyists that make millions off that 4 step plan. You just published the playbook!

[Sentient]

The more you think about the time and money wasted the more unreal it seems...  Nearly two years now to this point.  What will the net effect be of all the lawyers, lobbyists, favors, political capital and dollars spent?  Two shoe in establishments get what they want and maybe a couple of others.  That's it.

Imagine if the same amount of money was spent over the last two years taking a look at something holistic for the entire area, a ground up re-examination of alcohol sales laws, public consumption laws etc.  We might have set Jax up as a real restaurant and nightlife destination..  opened a dozen new places.  Raised real estate values.  Increased employment.

Jim Love and the council are weak tits...  and RAP should be disbanded for chronic meddling and hypocrisy.

[Steve]

RAP wasn't involved with the first one. That was done by Biscotti's and Casbah.

As far as the 100 seats, that precedent was set by the downtown and five points version, which is 100 seats.

[Sentient]

RAP wasn't involved with the first one. That was done by Biscotti's and Casbah.

As far as the 100 seats, that precedent was set by the downtown and five points version, which is 100 seats.

LOL

RAP knew of the "first one" and was completely silent....  hmmmm.  Weren't silent on other alcohol projects with "intensifying" uses.  and were against recent Park & King club.  It's complete and utter bullshit that they can choose to be kingmaker or breaker depending on if they "like" the project.

and the seat minimum at 100... well let's just speculate that the other J Bills were simply modeled on the lowest seats approved in other counties with an idea of pointing to it and saying "well you approved them" no real thought went into whether 100 is the right number over say 90 or 110.  And also be aware that the original downtown and Five Points sponsors all met the 100 seat requirement so the number for them was moot.

Funny that when the SUPERBOWL was coming and the council woke up and realized there were like no places to drink downtown in THE BOLD NEW CITY OF THE SOUTH they created a zone and approved a bunch of special licenses (BB's for one).

Don't you deserve better?

[Steve]

RAP wasn't involved with the first one. That was done by Biscotti's and Casbah.

As far as the 100 seats, that precedent was set by the downtown and five points version, which is 100 seats.

LOL

RAP knew of the "first one" and was completely silent....  hmmmm.   for one).

Didn't say that ether. Actually, RAP was approached for the first J-Bill (they wanted RAP's backing), and RAP responded by saying, "We support J-Bills in all commercial character areas." The idea was exactly why it failed. They didn't want to support something that benefits just two businesses.

I'm pretty well versed on this one (and I have ZERO financial gain), so if you'd like to PM me, happy to chat about it with you.

Steve

[Sentient]

RAP wasn't involved with the first one. That was done by Biscotti's and Casbah.

As far as the 100 seats, that precedent was set by the downtown and five points version, which is 100 seats.

LOL

RAP knew of the "first one" and was completely silent....  hmmmm.   for one).

Didn't say that ether. Actually, RAP was approached for the first J-Bill (they wanted RAP's backing), and RAP responded by saying, "We support J-Bills in all commercial character areas." The idea was exactly why it failed. They didn't want to support something that benefits just two businesses.

I'm pretty well versed on this one (and I have ZERO financial gain), so if you'd like to PM me, happy to chat about it with you.

Steve

So RAP was aware (as I indicated), didn't actively support the carve out deal - but - and this is the Jax Way - did give the wink and NOT COME OUT AGAINST IT.  Like you know - other projects with intensifying uses. 

Like Casbah needs to add space to get to even 100 seats (which they have leased and not renovated) so it would very clearly be intensifying use, not just changing the menu, and while they put MM through the ringer and other places, here they sit on their hands when they COULD have

a) come out against a side deal they didn't philosophically support; and

b) ACTIVELY promoted a better/wider solutions which incorporated more opinions than their own and other insider's...

Hence we get another shitty half measure instead of something GREAT, and 2 year delay.  These things don't happen by accident.

Keep it in the open, no need to PM.

[Know Growth]

Currently we only have five liquor servers at the Shoppes Of Avondale. Silly ol' backward Jacksonville! Travesty!

Biscottis likely good candidate- perhaps with a good snort of Joe Daniels the sewage stink would seem to dissipate.

I've got a great idea, plan- but it will entail five seat establishments.    Why not?   

Shucks,let's be really amazing; Let private residences fill the role.Parked a block away from the Shoppes??......skip St Johns Avenue!....watch for the private resident signs,even,of course,special Avondale Residence Drink,Dine & More App!  Welcome! Good drink,food,priced right and likely better than what is garnered a block away.Quality outside seating options,even fire pit.

[Kay]

RAP wasn't involved with the first one. That was done by Biscotti's and Casbah.

As far as the 100 seats, that precedent was set by the downtown and five points version, which is 100 seats.

LOL

RAP knew of the "first one" and was completely silent....  hmmmm.   for one).

Didn't say that ether. Actually, RAP was approached for the first J-Bill (they wanted RAP's backing), and RAP responded by saying, "We support J-Bills in all commercial character areas." The idea was exactly why it failed. They didn't want to support something that benefits just two businesses.

I'm pretty well versed on this one (and I have ZERO financial gain), so if you'd like to PM me, happy to chat about it with you.

Steve

So RAP was aware (as I indicated), didn't actively support the carve out deal - but - and this is the Jax Way - did give the wink and NOT COME OUT AGAINST IT.  Like you know - other projects with intensifying uses. 

Like Casbah needs to add space to get to even 100 seats (which they have leased and not renovated) so it would very clearly be intensifying use, not just changing the menu, and while they put MM through the ringer and other places, here they sit on their hands when they COULD have

a) come out against a side deal they didn't philosophically support; and

b) ACTIVELY promoted a better/wider solutions which incorporated more opinions than their own and other insider's...

Hence we get another shitty half measure instead of something GREAT, and 2 year delay.  These things don't happen by accident.

Keep it in the open, no need to PM.

Sentient:  I agree transparency is important.  Is Sentient your name?  If not, does transparency include letting people know who the individual is behind the postings?

[Sentient]

RAP wasn't involved with the first one. That was done by Biscotti's and Casbah.

As far as the 100 seats, that precedent was set by the downtown and five points version, which is 100 seats.

LOL

RAP knew of the "first one" and was completely silent....  hmmmm.   for one).

Didn't say that ether. Actually, RAP was approached for the first J-Bill (they wanted RAP's backing), and RAP responded by saying, "We support J-Bills in all commercial character areas." The idea was exactly why it failed. They didn't want to support something that benefits just two businesses.

I'm pretty well versed on this one (and I have ZERO financial gain), so if you'd like to PM me, happy to chat about it with you.

Steve

So RAP was aware (as I indicated), didn't actively support the carve out deal - but - and this is the Jax Way - did give the wink and NOT COME OUT AGAINST IT.  Like you know - other projects with intensifying uses. 

Like Casbah needs to add space to get to even 100 seats (which they have leased and not renovated) so it would very clearly be intensifying use, not just changing the menu, and while they put MM through the ringer and other places, here they sit on their hands when they COULD have

a) come out against a side deal they didn't philosophically support; and

b) ACTIVELY promoted a better/wider solutions which incorporated more opinions than their own and other insider's...

Hence we get another shitty half measure instead of something GREAT, and 2 year delay.  These things don't happen by accident.

Keep it in the open, no need to PM.

Sentient:  I agree transparency is important.  Is Sentient your name?  If not, does transparency include letting people know who the individual is behind the postings?

Kay (last name withheld) thinks transparency is important on anonymous message boards... 

Duly noted :eyerolliest eyeroll emoji



Because you know it's not truth if you don't know who is saying it.  Here's a tip - If you have nothing substantive to add to the conversation, please do feel free to just read (even slowly and with your lips moving!) and refrain from cluttering up the post with nonsense...

[Sentient]

Currently we only have five liquor servers at the Shoppes Of Avondale. Silly ol' backward Jacksonville! Travesty!

Biscottis likely good candidate- perhaps with a good snort of Joe Daniels the sewage stink would seem to dissipate.

I've got a great idea, plan- but it will entail five seat establishments.    Why not?   

Shucks,let's be really amazing; Let private residences fill the role.Parked a block away from the Shoppes??......skip St Johns Avenue!....watch for the private resident signs,even,of course,special Avondale Residence Drink,Dine & More App!  Welcome! Good drink,food,priced right and likely better than what is garnered a block away.Quality outside seating options,even fire pit.

speaking of nonsense - i refer you to the entirety of KnowGrowth's post.  Look man, I know your schtick is to post outrageous half baked incoherent rants...  so I know any kind of tempered, lucid response to you is just so much piss in the wind... but I will humor you for the later lolz today.

Please explain why it's OK for a business to serve the Duval Demon Hard Spirits (this will likely be the name of any distillery I start - come to think of it) if they have the magic 100 seats and 1,800 sq ft while it is WRONG WRONG WRONG for the building to the left with 90 seats and the building to the right with 1,700 sq ft to serve it?