A mall for Florida's premier downtown in the works

[thelakelander]

Oh, and the college students fill up a walkable McDonalds as opposed to what we ended up with on State Street. You can get a fast food joint to do better if you create and lobby for the right type of urban environment.


DT Miami.


DT Jax

Serving the same artery clogging menu. One is built for walkability and increased density and the other might was well be in Orange Park.

[Adam White]

It's really amazing how much Miami seems to have changed since I was there last (1999).

[tpot]

After living 8 years in JAX and now in Miami, it seems like jAX continually invests in studies and then does nothing........in Miami projects get done.....JAX will never be a Miami but the city could learn a lot from Miami on how to revitalize a downtown core.........

[jaxnyc79]

Where does the zoning code rewrite stand?  Lori Boyer has referenced that, but is there anyone who is taking the wheel on it?  I live in Manhattan and Miami isn't a model city in my opinion; however, downtown Miami is light years ahead of Jax in terms of downtown (even if the downtown Miami street life seems anemic when I've been there, as recently as February).  Someone mentioned here before that Jax's dilemma is the beach being so far away.  It certainly feels like Downtown Miami is feeding off the spillover from South Beach's "robustness".  Not sure Miami's formulas for downtown would even work for Jax, given Jax's downtown won't enjoy spillover from a vibrant beach community.  The other issue is Miami's "balance sheet" can more fully back downtown because it's not spreading itself thin looking after the specific concerns of an entire county.

One of Miami Dade College's classroom buildings, fully integrated into the downtown landscape.

Downtown Miami was pretty similar to downtown Jacksonville 30 years ago. Although they are light years apart now, there are a lot of things we face now that we can look to a city like Miami to see how it dealt with them a decade or two ago. These would include keeping a 1980s Rouse Festival Marketplace up-to-date, making an effort to build up around a 1980s peoplemover system, dealing with FDOT to improve the streets for pedestrians, bringing our passenger rail station back to downtown, changing the citywide zoning code to make it more pedestrian scale, integrating a community college into the downtown streetscape, etc. IMO, what Miami truly shows autocentric Sunbelt sprawlers is that they can densify and become a lot more walkable if they are willing make it a priority to do so.


Miami-Dade College students traveling between classes spread around downtown's streets, as opposed to be hidden in a fortified campus.

[thelakelander]

After living 8 years in JAX and now in Miami, it seems like jAX continually invests in studies and then does nothing........in Miami projects get done.....JAX will never be a Miami but the city could learn a lot from Miami on how to revitalize a downtown core.........

This is true. I've realized that after living in Jax the past 10 years, but keeping close contact with associates in various cities nationwide.

[thelakelander]

Where does the zoning code rewrite stand?  Lori Boyer has referenced that, but is there anyone who is taking the wheel on it?

I haven't heard anything about a full zoning code rewrite since Bill Killingsworth left town. The previous planning director was let go during the election race earlier this year. I'm also, still not sure of what the new administration is planning to do in this particular area.

I live in Manhattan and Miami isn't a model city in my opinion; however, downtown Miami is light years ahead of Jax in terms of downtown (even if the downtown Miami street life seems anemic when I've been there, as recently as February).

Miami wasn't a large city prior to suburbanization. You won't find one city in America, largely built since 1950 that will offer the walkability of cities that were large prior to WWII. Take a look at this linked list:

http://www.census.gov/population/www/documentation/twps0027/tab18.txt

The major cities (let's say top 50) with population densities of more than 10,000 peopel per square mile, are typically still the most walkable today. What Miami offers Jax, Atlanta, Charlotte and nearly every Sunbelt city outside of New Orleans, Charleston and Savannah, is how to transform an autocentric community into a multimodal friendly one. With that said, Miami isn't a finished project. Today, it's radically different than it was in 2000. In 2020, it will be radically different than it is today. It's continued transformation is a roadmap for smaller sunbelt sprawlers like Jacksonville. 

Someone mentioned here before that Jax's dilemma is the beach being so far away.  It certainly feels like Downtown Miami is feeding off the spillover from South Beach's "robustness".  Not sure Miami's formulas for downtown would even work for Jax, given Jax's downtown won't enjoy spillover from a vibrant beach community.

I don't believe this to be the case. Miami is an international gateway and business community. That's fueling its downtown growth. Also, Norfolk/Hampton Roads area is pretty much identical to Jacksonville.  It's 21 miles from downtown Norfolk (situated on the Elizabeth River) to Virginia Beach via I-264 (they're JTB). While not Miami (the Hampton Roads area is much smaller) Downtown Norfolk is still ahead of DT Jax because its recent investments have been clustered in close proximity to one another. Same goes for Savannah, which is a similar distance from Tybee Island.

The other issue is Miami's "balance sheet" can more fully back downtown because it's not spreading itself thin looking after the specific concerns of an entire county.

Good point. However, other consolidated cities around Jacksonville's size, like Indianapolis, Nashville and Louisville, suggest this can be overcome and consolidation can help fuel downtown growth.

[tpot]

http://miami.curbed.com/archives/2015/04/30/technicolor-tower-of-lights-will-crown-a-new-silicone-beach.php

A developer is still trying to get a "Silicon Beach" going downtown as well.........this would be amazing for the city

[jaxnyc79]

Where does the zoning code rewrite stand?  Lori Boyer has referenced that, but is there anyone who is taking the wheel on it?

I haven't heard anything about a full zoning code rewrite since Bill Killingsworth left town. The previous planning director was let go during the election race earlier this year. I'm also, still not sure of what the new administration is planning to do in this particular area.

I live in Manhattan and Miami isn't a model city in my opinion; however, downtown Miami is light years ahead of Jax in terms of downtown (even if the downtown Miami street life seems anemic when I've been there, as recently as February).

Miami wasn't a large city prior to suburbanization. You won't find one city in America, largely built since 1950 that will offer the walkability of cities that were large prior to WWII. Take a look at this linked list:

http://www.census.gov/population/www/documentation/twps0027/tab18.txt

The major cities (let's say top 50) with population densities of more than 10,000 peopel per square mile, are typically still the most walkable today. What Miami offers Jax, Atlanta, Charlotte and nearly every Sunbelt city outside of New Orleans, Charleston and Savannah, is how to transform an autocentric community into a multimodal friendly one. With that said, Miami isn't a finished project. Today, it's radically different than it was in 2000. In 2020, it will be radically different than it is today. It's continued transformation is a roadmap for smaller sunbelt sprawlers like Jacksonville. 

I wasn't suggesting Miami try to be Manhattan or any of the older, northern cities.  Having said that, my opinion of the standards of a model city don't change just because a city is in the sunbelt, or has followed a trend of auto-centricity, or even because it is in the US.  I've been to many smaller cities in developed countries around the world, and much more thought is given to sustainability and the economic power of giving residents many different mobility options.  I thoroughly enjoy your photos and reporting from other cities, I only mentioned the model city bit to make sure Jax doesn't necessarily take its marching orders from its bigger sunbelt neighbors. 

There's a ton we could do here, at our size, to put us on track to be a better and more vibrant city, even without the population growth.  You don't have to be forced into walkability just because you've become the center of a 4+ million metro.  Miami is on the right track, but it still feels very auto-centric, even in DT. 

One thing of note about New Orleans, Charleston, Savannah, or other "destination" cities, is that I judge their downtowns to be "theme park" downtowns (I know I'll take a lot of heat over that comment).  It's as though they understand that their historic districts (or what I call, vast architectural and place-making museums) are key to tourism and their status as destination cities.  Jax may never get that, but DT Jax should exist to serve its people, to be another vibrant neighborhood amongst many which prizes mobility and street-level vibrancy over most else, whose density fosters an abundance of interpersonal engagement and feeds the free-flow of ideas.

Someone mentioned here before that Jax's dilemma is the beach being so far away.  It certainly feels like Downtown Miami is feeding off the spillover from South Beach's "robustness".  Not sure Miami's formulas for downtown would even work for Jax, given Jax's downtown won't enjoy spillover from a vibrant beach community.

I don't believe this to be the case. Miami is an international gateway and business community. That's fueling its downtown growth. Also, Norfolk/Hampton Roads area is pretty much identical to Jacksonville.  It's 21 miles from downtown Norfolk (situated on the Elizabeth River) to Virginia Beach via I-264 (they're JTB). While not Miami (the Hampton Roads area is much smaller) Downtown Norfolk is still ahead of DT Jax because its recent investments have been clustered in close proximity to one another. Same goes for Savannah, which is a similar distance from Tybee Island.

In regards to your Norfolk and Savannah references, I didn't mean to say the distance from the beach can't be overcome.  I was merely stating that I believe DT Miami is benefitting from South Beach spillover, and IMO, that MAY be a bigger credit to DT Miami's resurgence than any strategy or formula implemented by the Miami DDA or any other policy stimuli.  Jax won't have the same spillover benefits, so our efforts to revitalize will be independent of proximity to bustling beaches (should our beaches ever become bustling).

Also, Miami does have the benefit of tons of international inflow, and I would guess that that scale of internationals (who become an economic and policy force in a community) tend to value walkability and density moreso than Americans.

The other issue is Miami's "balance sheet" can more fully back downtown because it's not spreading itself thin looking after the specific concerns of an entire county.

Good point. However, other consolidated cities around Jacksonville's size, like Indianapolis, Nashville and Louisville, suggest this can be overcome and consolidation can help fuel downtown growth.

[jaxnyc79]

Any chance we can create an anthology of your photos depicting the problems with how Jax is growing for delivery to council members?  It's hard to educate on this stuff without photos.  The McDonalds comparison is a very good example of what we're doing to undermine the potential of the Urban Priority Area.  If we no longer have an advocate in the Planning Department, we should go directly to Council to educate.  I'd help fund such an anthology.  So many grand visions for Jax get discussed in these threads, but ultimately I guess the city feels it has much bigger fish to fry...like crime and education and poverty.  I personally believe that the issues around how we build and develop are more linked to the "big fish" issues than we think.

[thelakelander]

I wasn't suggesting Miami try to be Manhattan or any of the older, northern cities.  Having said that, my opinion of the standards of a model city don't change just because a city is in the sunbelt, or has followed a trend of auto-centricity, or even because it is in the US.  I've been to many smaller cities in developed countries around the world, and much more thought is given to sustainability and the economic power of giving residents many different mobility options.  I thoroughly enjoy your photos and reporting from other cities, I only mentioned the model city bit to make sure Jax doesn't necessarily take its marching orders from its bigger sunbelt neighbors.

Totally understandable. Just to provide more insight on my perspective, I tend to not directly compare the development of American cities to those in other countries because of the era in which those cities were developed and the differences in American policies. Some models, no matter how great, aren't applicable because of our country's regulations, policies and typical infrastructure investments. For example, no doubt Jax could learn a lot from Calgary when it comes to infrastructure investment. Unfortunately, somethings aren't as easily implementable or possible when dealing with infrastructure maintained by an entity like FDOT, which has its own set of policies and design standards.

There's a ton we could do here, at our size, to put us on track to be a better and more vibrant city, even without the population growth.  You don't have to be forced into walkability just because you've become the center of a 4+ million metro.  Miami is on the right track, but it still feels very auto-centric, even in DT.

This is because Miami, grew up in an auto-centric time in America. All 20th century American cities are autocentric. Older American cities like American cities like NYC, Chicago, etc. largely developed during the 19th century, thus the different urban core feel. This also applies to smaller cities. Take Providence, RI and Jax for example. In 1950, Providence had 248k residents, while Jax had 204k. However, Providence was twice as dense because most of it's growth (it had 175k residents in 1900) occurred prior to 20th century zoning regulations and changes in mobility (ex. electric streetcars and automobiles). No matter what Jax does today, it won't end up with the type of density or walkability that Providence has. Our policies, environment, infrastructure design standards, zoning regulations, many of which were changed because of problems with 19th century urban overcrowding won't allow it.

One thing of note about New Orleans, Charleston, Savannah, or other "destination" cities, is that I judge their downtowns to be "theme park" downtowns (I know I'll take a lot of heat over that comment).  It's as though they understand that their historic districts (or what I call, vast architectural and place-making museums) are key to tourism and their status as destination cities.

I'd agree with that in regards to Charleston and Savannah. However, New Orleans is a different story. It's still a major business center and walkable city...even outside of the small tourist districts. However, it has economically been replaced by Houston.

Jax may never get that, but DT Jax should exist to serve its people, to be another vibrant neighborhood amongst many which prizes mobility and street-level vibrancy over most else, whose density fosters an abundance of interpersonal engagement and feeds the free-flow of ideas.

I agree. I believe this is happening in Miami now. Jax can learn from Miami's experience. There are things taking place in that community that are directly applicable (or avoidable) for a city like Jax, which is also largely autocentric and has to deal with the same agencies at the federal and state levels, when it comes to infrastructure investment.

In regards to your Norfolk and Savannah references, I didn't mean to say the distance from the beach can't be overcome.  I was merely stating that I believe DT Miami is benefitting from South Beach spillover, and IMO, that MAY be a bigger credit to DT Miami's resurgence than any strategy or formula implemented by the Miami DDA or any other policy stimuli.  Jax won't have the same spillover benefits, so our efforts to revitalize will be independent of proximity to bustling beaches (should our beaches ever become bustling).

Also, Miami does have the benefit of tons of international inflow, and I would guess that that scale of internationals (who become an economic and policy force in a community) tend to value walkability and density moreso than Americans.

The Miami we see today is largely a result of a few major events in our regional history.

A. Fidel Castro coming to power in Cuba in 1959, resulting in most refugees relocating to Miami (the closest large American MSA to Cuba).
B. The drug wars (and the economic investment that comes with them) of the 70s and 80s.
C. Immigration from Haiti and Latin America.

Then you have the area's physical liabilities. It's sandwiched between the Atlantic and the Everglades. It's essentially built out. Thus, there's no where to grow but up. Instead of spill over from the beach, the beach actually has benefitted from the same things of regional impact. While the beach and downtown Miami get all the press, what's happening in them are also occurring in other districts across South Florida (ex. DT Fort Lauderdale, DT West Palm Beach, Coral Gables, Sunny Isles Beach, etc.). A good visual example of having no where else to go but up is the Sawgrass Parkway, just north of I-595 in Broward County. Here, the suburbs have stretched out as far as they can go. The Everglades are on the other side of the highway.

[thelakelander]

Any chance we can create an anthology of your photos depicting the problems with how Jax is growing for delivery to council members?  It's hard to educate on this stuff without photos.  The McDonalds comparison is a very good example of what we're doing to undermine the potential of the Urban Priority Area.  If we no longer have an advocate in the Planning Department, we should go directly to Council to educate.  I'd help fund such an anthology.  So many grand visions for Jax get discussed in these threads, but ultimately I guess the city feels it has much bigger fish to fry...like crime and education and poverty.  I personally believe that the issues around how we build and develop are more linked to the "big fish" issues than we think.

^Like you, I believe how you build a city can have a positive or negative impact on issues like crime, education and poverty. What we've built to date, clearly does not work. Luckily, many in the city are familiar with these issues. I had the opportunity to work on the City's Mobility Plan and associated land use modifications that led to the creation of the Urban Priority Area. A zoning overhaul is ultimately needed. We'll get there, but we'll have to start small and it will take time to full implement. We do have a new administration in office, so it's not uncommon to give them a few months to get their team together. However, this particular item isn't just a Jacksonville dilemma. Most American sunbelt cities largely built in the 20th century like Atlanta, Tampa and Orlando also have the same work cut out for them.