How Jax Compares: The Different Faces of Density

[simms3]

Chinatown New York City is one of the worst places on Earth. Its filthy. It smells like glazed duck and four day old fish. And you don't have an inch of personal space to yourself.

I always liked it, to be honest. But it's not like I would necessarily want to spend lots and lots of time there. I hate crowds - but I suppose it's fun in small doses for the spectacle.

I enjoyed Pearl River Mart - is it still there? Chinatown in London irritates me - but that's probably because it's basically in Soho, which is like the third circle of hell or something.

I'll be hanging out in SoHo/London in short matter's time!  Can't wait

Chinatown in Manhattan is far from the most dense place in Manhattan, and North Beach in SF is far from the most dense place in SF.  Some of the most pleasant areas in Manhattan with some of the most greenspace per capita for that part of the city are also the most dense (UES, UWS).

Quite frankly, personal space is relative.  Density can be achieved through some sort of combination of many many housing units over very small area, very very small units, or very very large families in spaces too small for the family size.

Relatively affluent places in New York have 100-200+K ppsm with building density much greater than Chinatown because the apartments are quite spacious and families aren't all that large, so there is even some greenspace mixed in with wide streets.  That is quite comfortable.

Conversely, there are parts of SF where the density is also 100-200K ppsm, but rather than 20-30+ story buildings, it is only 6-12 story buildings, and the units are teeny tiny and cramped (we call them SROs here and no city has a higher concentration/# of SROs still to this day than SF - the Bowery in NYC used to be similar, and that is near Chinatown).

Parts of Los Angeles are quite dense even with sprawling apartment complexes and single family homes because wide swaths of that city are poor with insanely large family sizes (not to be stereotypical...but lots of Catholic Mexican immigrant families).

So there's a lot that goes into density.  It's pretty easy to make very high density quite comfortable, actually.


Conversely, a lack of density can be quite uncomfortable.  Woodsy areas in cities pretty much scare me, personally.  I always get creeped out and have a feeling like there are serial killers out there, hiding in the bushes and trees, and it's not like there is sufficient lighting on city streets, or other people walking around.  So yea, low density can be damn terrifying in a city, and high density can be downright pleasant, it just depends.

[Adam White]

Chinatown New York City is one of the worst places on Earth. Its filthy. It smells like glazed duck and four day old fish. And you don't have an inch of personal space to yourself.

I always liked it, to be honest. But it's not like I would necessarily want to spend lots and lots of time there. I hate crowds - but I suppose it's fun in small doses for the spectacle.

I enjoyed Pearl River Mart - is it still there? Chinatown in London irritates me - but that's probably because it's basically in Soho, which is like the third circle of hell or something.

I'll be hanging out in SoHo/London in short matter's time!  Can't wait

It can be fun - but I'm just too old and intolerant of crowds. But like any big city, the crowds and the buzz is all part of the attraction.

[simms3]

Chinatown in Manhattan does smell, though.  Like, pretty badly.  Oddly, Chinatown in SF does not smell as bad, but it can also be quite pungent.

Fortunately for middle class white people who don't like to live in smelly conditions and are fortunate enough to have more choices, Chinatown in any major city doesn't have to be a living option.  But it's a fantastic way for new Chinese immigrants to find community and find their feet.

[simms3]

Chinatown New York City is one of the worst places on Earth. Its filthy. It smells like glazed duck and four day old fish. And you don't have an inch of personal space to yourself.

I always liked it, to be honest. But it's not like I would necessarily want to spend lots and lots of time there. I hate crowds - but I suppose it's fun in small doses for the spectacle.

I enjoyed Pearl River Mart - is it still there? Chinatown in London irritates me - but that's probably because it's basically in Soho, which is like the third circle of hell or something.

I'll be hanging out in SoHo/London in short matter's time!  Can't wait

It can be fun - but I'm just too old and intolerant of crowds. But like any big city, the crowds and the buzz is all part of the attraction.

And it does cater to particular nightlife

[Adam White]

Chinatown New York City is one of the worst places on Earth. Its filthy. It smells like glazed duck and four day old fish. And you don't have an inch of personal space to yourself.

I always liked it, to be honest. But it's not like I would necessarily want to spend lots and lots of time there. I hate crowds - but I suppose it's fun in small doses for the spectacle.

I enjoyed Pearl River Mart - is it still there? Chinatown in London irritates me - but that's probably because it's basically in Soho, which is like the third circle of hell or something.

I'll be hanging out in SoHo/London in short matter's time!  Can't wait

It can be fun - but I'm just too old and intolerant of crowds. But like any big city, the crowds and the buzz is all part of the attraction.

And it does cater to particular nightlife

Yes, there's that too 

[Ocklawaha]

Tampa = Streetcar + BRT + Plans for LRT, Commuter Rail and AAF
Detroit = Building Streetcar + established BRT
Kansas City = Building Streetcar + established BRT
Louisville = Engineering LRT
Savannah = Streetcar + Water Taxi + Plans for greatly increased streetcar system
Charlotte = LRT + Streetcar + BRT + Commuter Rail on the way
Houston = LRT + BRT + Plans for regional HSR
Norfolk = LRT + BRT + More LRT under construction
New Orleans = Streetcar + Plans for Commuter/regional Rail
Orlando = Commuter Rail + BRT + Plans for LRT + AAF
Nashville = Commuter Rail + Building BRT + Plans for more of both

Jacksonville = BRT Lite + CHIRP + CHIRP + CHIRP

BRT = Bus Rapid Transit
LRT = Light Rail Transit

Time to pull your head out Jacksonville!

[tufsu1]

Tampa = Streetcar + BRT + Plans for LRT, Commuter Rail and AAF

actually no...there are virtiually no plans for LRT or commuter rail...and Jax. is ahead on AAF as well

as for BRT, the JTA version is pretty much identical to Tampa's MetroRapid....except for the fact that Jax has more funding

[Tacachale]

Tampa = Streetcar + BRT + Plans for LRT, Commuter Rail and AAF

actually no...there are virtiually no plans for LRT or commuter rail...and Jax. is ahead on AAF as well

as for BRT, the JTA version is pretty much identical to Tampa's MetroRapid....except for the fact that Jax has more funding

Plus, Tampa's streetcar seems to be considered even more of a joke than the Skyway.

[Ocklawaha]

Tampa = Streetcar + BRT + Plans for LRT, Commuter Rail and AAF

actually no...there are virtiually no plans for LRT or commuter rail...and Jax. is ahead on AAF as well

as for BRT, the JTA version is pretty much identical to Tampa's MetroRapid....except for the fact that Jax has more funding

When was that vote 'NO TAX FOR TRACKS' in Jacksonville? In Tampa its been at least twice to the pump, St. Pete too, looking at HART or FDOT sites and doing a bit of mining Tampa is being pushed toward fixed rail including AAF. When has JAX laid down LRT compliant trackage along Bay Street? Where are the Jax officials that have held those high level meetings with AAF? Tampa rail will reemerge and we'll still be talking.

[tufsu1]

Tampa voted in 2010/2011...and it lost
Pinellas voted in 2014...and it lost by even more

Trust me when I tell you that Tampa is not being pushed into rail...in fact, HART doesn't have it anywhere in their plans...including the one they refer to as the "Christmas morning wish list" version

[Ocklawaha]

Really? How about a very public $1 dollar gentlemen's bet, rail is back on the plans within 10 years.

[gjosephunf]

In order to avoid getting too far off topic Hillsborough MPO is pushing for SunRail to extend into Tampa or utilizing Brooksville to DT Tampa on CSX line.  Over 300 constituents rallied against the TBX (express lane) project in Tampa. The board has voted for it, HOWEVER FDOT has to follow the boards recommendations ($1 million for streetcar, and a fixed-guideway/multi-modal system) more news will be released in the coming months....

From Twitter via Brian Willis

[tufsu1]

Really? How about a very public $1 dollar gentlemen's bet, rail is back on the plans within 10 years.

on the plans sure...I'll bet the same for Jax

JAX can't spell rale, raile, um you know, it's a four letter word, but your going to lose that bet in Tampa!

[tufsu1]

In order to avoid getting too far off topic Hillsborough MPO is pushing for SunRail to extend into Tampa or utilizing Brooksville to DT Tampa on CSX line.  Over 300 constituents rallied against the TBX (express lane) project in Tampa. The board has voted for it, HOWEVER FDOT has to follow the boards recommendations ($1 million for streetcar, and a fixed-guideway/multi-modal system) more news will be released in the coming months....

I am very aware of the discussions...in fact, I've been involved peripherally.  Before moving to Jax, I lived in Tampa for 7 years.  And I still do plenty of work down there.

I stand by my original statement that, at this time, Tampa is not ahead of Jacksonville regarding rail transit.  Keep in mind that JTA has been conducting commuter rail studies for several years. 

Also note the CSX study referenced in the TIP (which has not started or been funded yet) is not for extension of SunRail...CSX has been adamant that the rail lines from Plant City to Tampa is too lucrative for them...this would be for the corridor that comes down from Pasco County into Ybor City.

[thelakelander]

I can't imagine CSX allowing any commuter rail on their tracks east of the Uceta yard.  There's too much money to be made. One day, phosphate will go away but the way companies like Amazon, Walmart, FedEx, etc. are piling distribution hubs into the I-4 corridor, there will still be a lot to ship.

What's weird about the TECO streetcar and Skyway is that we found a way to screw things up in opposite directions. The Skyway serves downtown pretty well but doesn't connect downtown with any surrounding neighborhoods.  The TECO Streetcar serves Ybor well but fails to adaquately tie into downtown Tampa. However, it has helped spur TOD around the convention center and Channel District.

On the flip end, the Skyway has never really been coordinated with land use policy and development. However, when it boils down to shear ridership, it averages around 4,300 a day (ridership increased 72% since becoming fare free), while the TECO Streetcar is one of the worst performing fixed transit lines in the country with 700 daily riders.