Barnett Building Update

[bill]

just responding to the giant Whambulance sirens whenever anyone questions the moral purity of a automobile industry billionaire, duval bill.  Ive said repeatedly, wait for the full story, and as Ben Davis can probably confirm, Im not going to budge on not speaking out of turn.

Have you figured out which building is getting F/C yet? 

[For_F-L-O-R-I-D-A]

Just Barnett.

[PeeJayEss]

Khan was the one who publicized his good guy role in procuring the Barnett and Laura Trio, and he reaped the benefit of the positive public relations that he earned as the new guy in town shortly before asking for a metric shitload of tax payer funds.

I think you're over-estimating the people and the government of Jax. The NFL team gets what it wants, no matter the reputation of the owner. Every market that has an NFL franchise (or any pro team, for that matter) is basically held hostage by the constant prospect of that team packing up and leaving town. It's sold as an investment that has a massive return on investment, though you'll never see that proven, or as an asset with intangible benefits to the host city, like people thinking the Jags put Jax "on the map." There are plenty of examples of how poorly the Jacksonville government works, but in this case I think it is not a whole lot different than any other city. The city eventually answers to the people, and while a few people may complain about us throwing a bunch of money at some scoreboards, the mob would be out with their pitchforks if the city didn't give up the money and the franchise threatened to leave.

All that is to say, he doesn't need to do all this dealing in bad faith by investing in what are basically charitable business endeavors in order to ingratiate himself with the people. Jags get the money even if Khan kills a guy. I think you're absolutely right that there is a bit of hero worship with Khan, but we don't have many shiny new things in Jax, and just because we're dumb and the city is dumb doesn't mean he's got some evil machinations going on to sink small businesses and destroy downtown.

If any one of the banks downtown made the kinds of asks that he has made of the city you can be absolutely sure that they would be laughed off of planet earth by the same posters who cannot seem to remember just how much taxpayer money they have volunteered to this guy.

So while you are being I think a bit harsh on the city with regards to their dealings with the Jags (it is pathetic, yes, but it is common, and it is our fault, in short), I think you're giving them way too much credit on this one. The city gives out tax breaks and other incentives to banks and other businesses downtown. How much did it cost to move a couple hundred jobs from the suburbs to downtown? If Wells Fargo said they would relocate their headquarters to Jax, you can be sure Jax would be bending over backwards to throw cash at them in any form they could.

[SunKing]

If any one of the banks downtown made the kinds of asks that he has made of the city you can be absolutely sure that they would be laughed off of planet earth by the same posters who cannot seem to remember just how much taxpayer money they have volunteered to this guy.

So while you are being I think a bit harsh on the city with regards to their dealings with the Jags (it is pathetic, yes, but it is common, and it is our fault, in short), I think you're giving them way too much credit on this one. The city gives out tax breaks and other incentives to banks and other businesses downtown. How much did it cost to move a couple hundred jobs from the suburbs to downtown? If Wells Fargo said they would relocate their headquarters to Jax, you can be sure Jax would be bending over backwards to throw cash at them in any form they could.
[/quote]

And they would have foreclosed looonnngg before Kahn did.  AND they would have mortgaged and foreclosed all the buildings. 

[SunKing]

[/quote]

So are you under the impression that Steve Atkins owns a bakery?  Interesting.

[/quote]

Are you ignorant or just intentionally deceptive?  You should ashamed of yourself.

[duvalbill]

If any one of the banks downtown made the kinds of asks that he has made of the city you can be absolutely sure that they would be laughed off of planet earth by the same posters who cannot seem to remember just how much taxpayer money they have volunteered to this guy.

So while you are being I think a bit harsh on the city with regards to their dealings with the Jags (it is pathetic, yes, but it is common, and it is our fault, in short), I think you're giving them way too much credit on this one. The city gives out tax breaks and other incentives to banks and other businesses downtown. How much did it cost to move a couple hundred jobs from the suburbs to downtown? If Wells Fargo said they would relocate their headquarters to Jax, you can be sure Jax would be bending over backwards to throw cash at them in any form they could.

And they would have foreclosed looonnngg before Kahn did.  AND they would have mortgaged and foreclosed all the buildings.

Well sure, if banks were like billionaires asking for public welfare checks, i guess.

Yeah, banks with multi-billion dollar holdings have never been bailed out before...

[Non-RedNeck Westsider]

Well sure, if banks were like billionaires asking for public welfare checks, i guess.

Alzheimer's much?

[Non-RedNeck Westsider]

Well sure, if banks were like billionaires asking for public welfare checks, i guess.

Alzheimer's much?

lack of adderall much?

Unfortunately, yes. 

[marty904]

If any one of the banks downtown made the kinds of asks that he has made of the city you can be absolutely sure that they would be laughed off of planet earth by the same posters who cannot seem to remember just how much taxpayer money they have volunteered to this guy.

So while you are being I think a bit harsh on the city with regards to their dealings with the Jags (it is pathetic, yes, but it is common, and it is our fault, in short), I think you're giving them way too much credit on this one. The city gives out tax breaks and other incentives to banks and other businesses downtown. How much did it cost to move a couple hundred jobs from the suburbs to downtown? If Wells Fargo said they would relocate their headquarters to Jax, you can be sure Jax would be bending over backwards to throw cash at them in any form they could.

And they would have foreclosed looonnngg before Kahn did.  AND they would have mortgaged and foreclosed all the buildings.

Well sure, if banks were like billionaires asking for public welfare checks, i guess.

Why does it have to be about his financial status? The way you use the term "billionaire" against Khan is almost some weird form of racism.  How about you take the "billionaire" out of the equation and treat the situation for what it is...

If ANY developer has the right to solicit public assistance on ANY project in this city, then he or any other "billionaire" should have the same right.  Just because he has a personal net worth much greater than the average bear doesn't mean that he should not be given the same opportunities that the lowly millionaires get.  By stating he shouldn't be asking for incentives like every other developer does, that is discriminatory based on his personal checkbook.

Stop trying to create a villain out of Khan every time he makes (quite reasonable) business decisions that have nothing to do with you!

[SunKing]

Well sure, if banks were like billionaires asking for public welfare checks, i guess.

Alzheimer's much?

lack of adderall much?

It seems like the basic argument now is: 1.  Since banks got bailed out, its ok to give an out of town NFL owner in excess of 100 million dollars of taxpayer money when we can't afford to pay our cops and 2.  if he fucks over some of his publicity stunt good will partners as soon as he's got the tax money in the bag, that is A OK.

Because: Charity only counts when its coming from the taxpayers, and should never be extended to the little guys?

Is that the gist of it?

No. Follow closely.  Its really simple.  These deals weren't charity.  The gist of it is that if someone loans you money, you should probably repay it.  Would you agree with that one simple principle?

[thelakelander]

And do lending banks normally go to the taxpayers immediately afterwards and ask them to start writing (literally free) checks in excess of thirty million dollars at a time?

Who is asking for +$30 million from the city for the Barnett?

[PeeJayEss]

Who is asking for +$30 million from the city for the Barnett?

Stephen seems to think Khan got the money for the scoreboards because of the goodwill he obtained from financing the purchase of the Barnett/Trio and Edgewood Bakery. He's using that shaky premise to conclude that Khan did not deal with these hair-brained business schemes in good faith. None of us really understands the point, but he has made the most posts and is entirely dismissive of discussion from anyone not agreeing with him, so I guess he's winning the argument? And Khan is rich, so he must be a bad guy.

[Non-RedNeck Westsider]

I find it believable, though maybe not probable, that Khan may have invested in local ventures to stir up good will in order to get his video boards.  The whole situation is interesting and I, at least, have enjoyed reading all sides' takes.

I mean, if we're speculating, there's no reason to believe that Khan wasn't loaning out the money in good faith, more or less.  Knowing that some of these projects have been stagnating, mostly due to funds, why not kick in a few million to help things along?  What's good for the city is good for the Jags, right?

But after kickstarting a few projects (pun intended) with an infusion of cash, there was a realization that they were stagnating more from ineptitude than they were from lack of money.  Might as well try and recoup some losses. 

I don't know Steve Atkins personally, but I've done quite a bit of work with his partners, and have never had these types of issue with our projects.  So while I believe there's more to the story, I still think this is mostly business as usual and don't buy into any of the nefariousness talk at all.

It would have been cheaper, less stressful and have gotten more 'good will' had he just purchased the buildings outright and did the development himself if his intentions were as suggested.

[icarus]

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,24622.msg416201.html#msg416201

Interesting read but entirely off point .. unless you are trying to make the argument that SoutheastGroup (developer) is somehow a charity.  Loaning money to help a for profit business develop a real estate project for 'profit' is simply not analogous to philanthropy.

As far as the continued references to the stadium improvements, right now, the law sets aside a percentage of tax revenue which can only be used for improvements in the stadium district.  While the boards and pools are ostentatious, the tax money had to be spent on stadium improvements of some kind and absent a change in law and lease with Jaguars .. no where else.

So really what is the point of this discussion .. Khan loaned money .. didn't go as planned .. he's foreclosing ....

I'd rather hear about what Khan's plans for the building are upon taking possession in foreclosure.

[hiddentrack]

I find it believable, though maybe not probable, that Khan may have invested in local ventures to stir up good will in order to get his video boards.  The whole situation is interesting and I, at least, have enjoyed reading all sides' takes.

I'm sure part of it was selfish. Showing he's invested in the community definitely drums up some good will. There's also the whole catching more flies with honey thing. But I don't think his earlier investments were only about drumming up support for stadium enhancements. If that's what they were for, he's going to have to keep making them. The stadium is a little over 20 years old now and it's going to need more work to be properly maintained.

I think he believes that if Jacksonville grows, especially if that growth is downtown, the Jaguars benefit. If that happens, then the value of the team he purchased is worth a lot more money. He seems willing to make investments to help make that happen. I think the only reason we haven't seen more investments is because the ones so far haven't gone so well.