Casbah/Biscotties VS Ben Davis/Intuition

[Noone]

It has nothing to do with a brewery being afraid that they will loose sales to liquor companies (like most craft beer breweries, they can't produce enough to keep up with the demand for their product as it is).

The J Bill proposed was a classic case of spot zoning, which is 'zoning speak' for a situation whereas one parcel of land receives a special land use classification that is completely different from other properties in the same area. One person gets an advantage over others. Generally, spot zoning cases deal with the issue of fairness.

For context, in 2010 when Black Sheep was being constructed in Five Points.. their ownership group lobbied for a J Bill that would apply the same alchohol standards that downtown restaurants enjoy to Five Points and portions of North Riverside. Generally, these J Bills are looked at as economic development tools as a way to change zoning over a wide area in order to make that area more economically competitive given other inherent market disadvantages or unique characteristics of their buiGlt environment.

SRX alcohol licenses are issued to bona fide restaurants with 150+ seats whose food sales constitute 51% or more of the business' revenue. In dowtown, restaurants only need to have 100+ seats to be eligible for an SRX license.  In dense, urban environments... it generally isn't practical or desirable to apply suburban standards to restaurants (otherwise, you'd see a place like the Bostwick Building, Downtown Cigar Lounge and 1904 Music Hall-all small buildings with zero lot lines and no parking on site- get knocked down in order to build a suburban-style Applebees with a huge surface parking lot just to be able to have liquor sales in a restaurant). 

The J Bill Black Sheep got approved rolled Five Points and a portion of North Riverside into the downtown overlay in relation to SRX liceneses. This was good not only for Black Sheep, but for all commercial lands whose zoning allows for a restaurant use in these neighborhoods. In other words, it helped raise the economic tide for everyone. 

The J Bill proposed for Biscottis and Casbah only applies to their land... and their land only giving them a competitve advantage that no one else in Avondale would also be eligible for.

If you believe that's fair, then you would probably be for the J Bill they proposed. If you don't think that's fair, you would probably be against the Biscottis/Casbah J Bill.

Nice explanation.
2010-856
Anyone else feeling sorry for the ..............Guys?

[tufsu1]

^ I feel sorry for those guys from Baltimore that operated the water taxi

[Jax native]

I'm just saying you lose business, you loose the laces on your shoes. 

[tufsu1]

^ stupid.  All Ben did here was show the hypocrisy of (and get back at) the restaurant owners that fought so hard to keep Mellow Mushroom out of the neighborhood, partially because of liquor sales. 

Furthermore, no bill should be approved in the state Legislature that basically addresses a specific site.  This is often an issue with growth management legislation.

[JHAT76]

Kudos to Ben for having the gnads to stand up to these hypocrites. 

Kudos to Ben for having the gnads Davis family money to decide what is best for the rest of the thousands of residents in the neighborhood.

Are you saying special zoning for individual restaurants based on a special relationship with a State Rep is in the best interest of the residents? 

[Know Growth]

Yea,how dare Biscottis and Casaba differentiate themselves with "spot" liquor sale privilege! After all, within eyesight of Biscottis and Casbah there are only FIVE establishments serving liquor. Ben Davis would probably like to own one of 'em. Nice corner location....... the chances of significantly expanding existing establishments unlikely,so ya' gotta clamp down on emerging square footage competition.....within eyesight. 

[MEGATRON]

Yea,how dare Biscottis and Casaba differentiate themselves with "spot" liquor sale privilege! After all, within eyesight of Biscottis and Casbah there are only FIVE establishments serving liquor. Ben Davis would probably like to own one of 'em. Nice corner location....... the chances of significantly expanding existing establishments unlikely,so ya' gotta clamp down on emerging square footage competition.....within eyesight. 

Yeah, those other establishments either: (1) have full service meals for 150 seats and are at least 2,500 sf or (2) have purchased a quota alcohol license.  It should be noted that Biscottis or Casbah could serve alcohol if they purchased a quota license.  I guess you are cool with throwing out the existing regulatory scheme for the benefit of two restaurants. 

[Know Growth]

Yea,how dare Biscottis and Casaba differentiate themselves with "spot" liquor sale privilege! After all, within eyesight of Biscottis and Casbah there are only FIVE establishments serving liquor. Ben Davis would probably like to own one of 'em. Nice corner location....... the chances of significantly expanding existing establishments unlikely,so ya' gotta clamp down on emerging square footage competition.....within eyesight. 

or make a uniform law that everyone abides by and encourages walkability.

Weren't you singing a different tune back when you were claiming that the end of Avondale was coming because of a really cool pizza place opening up?

Where are all the fatalities and mayhem that you promised?

You might have me mistaken for some of those those predictions....
No matter.
We can credit RAP and citizen involvement for scaling back the most harmful potential impacts,refining the end product.

During MM Land Use & Zone review period there was discussion of someone's interest in purchasing Monty's,perhaps assumed major revision...... 

Take away the drive through at Monty's!.... .........now that's the end of the place! 

Maybe limiting Liquor to FIVE locations will enhance "Walkability" 

[Ming The Merciless]

We can credit RAP and citizen involvement for scaling back the most harmful potential impacts,refining the end product.

[/quote]

You mean the part where they killed the adaptive reuse of the existing historical building and forced the construction of an entirely new structure?  Those harmful impacts?

[mtraininjax]

^ stupid.  All Ben did here was show the hypocrisy of (and get back at) the restaurant owners that fought so hard to keep Mellow Mushroom out of the neighborhood, partially because of liquor sales. 

A truly ridiculous argument since everyone and their 2nd cousins knew the restaurant was going to get allowed, with a few compromises. Same thing will happen with the old Yesterday's location.

No place in Jacksonville for vengeance or that piss poor attitude.

[Andy]

As someone who has no idea how this works, let me ask: what would be the hurdles that need to be hopped in order to make a neighborhood-wide allowance, as discussed earlier in this thread? Is it any more or less difficult than the proposal that was already shot down?

[fieldafm]

As someone who has no idea how this works, let me ask: what would be the hurdles that need to be hopped in order to make a neighborhood-wide allowance, as discussed earlier in this thread? Is it any more or less difficult than the proposal that was already shot down?

The people that hired a lobbyist to help get their properties a special exemption for SRX licenses could have just as easily sought the designation for the entire commercial district. Perhaps if that course of action was taken (benefiting all property owners-which is generally why these J Bills exist, to promote economic development- instead of carving out their own special use), the outcome would have been different and there likely would have been no opposition whatsoever. See the Black Sheep example for Five Points/North Riverside.

In fact, I could see an opportunity where if other property owners and RAP wanted to pool resources and explore the issue under the next legislative session... that such an overlay could be proposed for the commercial areas along McDuff, Stockton and St Johns Ave. You may even have the opportunity for local officials to propose such a bill through the Duval Delegation... instead of hiring a lobbyist to directly solicit support from a state representive. That would certainly be an option where a broad swath of stakeholders have the opportunity to weigh in on such issues, instead of working behind closed doors with hired guns.

[mtraininjax]

Now we just need to find a place for fairness in Avondale.  Luckily, Ben has helped provide that.

Good thing Karma is a bitch!

[Tacachale]

^Apparently so.

[JHAT76]

Now we just need to find a place for fairness in Avondale.  Luckily, Ben has helped provide that.

Good thing Karma is a bitch!

Whatever the methods and personal interests of the person who raised objection, I will ask you the same as I have asked others:

Are you saying special zoning for individual restaurants based on a special relationship with a State Rep is in the best interest of the residents?

As someone who lives very close I am OK with Ben raising his concerns even if there was a bit of vengeance involved.