Jacksonville Dem and GOP Evangelical politico's Blur the political lines.

[spuwho]

  Jeb Bush

John Peyton

Earlier I touched upon the fact that there remains an ongoing effort by conservative politico's to harness the power of religion and put it to use in governance.   Here in Florida in 2004 then Governor Jeb Bush promoted and signed into law legislation to create "Faith Based Initiatives" in both state and city offices.  Following his action Jacksonville's mayor at the time, John Peyton also created an "Office of Faith & Community Based Initiatives" funding it with 1.1 million dollars.  This office when created was manned by a Chief Community Officer, Rev. Pete Jackson of Springfield "Church of Christ" and Reverend Michael Payne Sr. as Executive Director.  Payne's job was to work behind the scenes to attempt to improve relations between the city and minorities. 

Bush's faith based initiative was immediately challenged as an attempt to fund tax dollars into religious organizations. Then the faith based initiative was amended to include the tag "community" presumably to indicate that it was not only about religious organizations. Interestingly enough the government contact for the faith based initiatives was run through a HUD portal, HUD.gov, which of course is the office of Housing and Urban Development where our current mayor, Alvin Brown found his first job in government.

Those who live and work in the minority districts of Jacksonville well know that there is a very serious competition in those communities between churches, pastors and ministries especially when it comes to securing grant money for local programs.  There is also a well known understanding on the part of leadership in those areas that fed money via HUD as funneled through city government flowed pretty regularly and was readily tapped if you knew the hows and whys of the process.  So lets just say there were many agenda's at play when the "Faith Based Office" opened.  In spite of the attempt to paint the office as a community effort, the office sponsored quarterly "Prayer Breakfasts".  It wasn't long before things went wrong and there was abuse of the office by some in it's employ as well as loud claims of an unfair selection process and just like that Executive Director Rev. Michael Payne Sr. was suddenly out the door and on his way to live in West Palm Beach. He did not get any extension of pay or benefits, he was just gone!  The Peyton administration did it's best to cover up the actual reason for his departure and Payne claimed he had left because of conflicts of personalities and management styles.  Ahem....  Rev Jackson was then put in as the interim director but in 2005 he was made both the Executive Director and Community Officer and awarded a $147,000.00 salary.  Then this funny thing happened.  It was announced by Jackson that the office would have to temporarily "suspend the grant program".   Oops.  No one wanted to explain this abrupt change publicly but the reality is that scandal was brewing with regard to what seemed to be unethical and perhaps illegal agreements being brokered by persons in the office and to whom money was being paid.  There were also lots of folks angry about what they claimed was an insider tract some in the community had to the program and it's funds. Then Rev Jackson announced that he was going to leave to do more work with his congregation and he was out of there.   Peyton then put a woman by the name of Roslyn Phillips in as Interim Director who was also intimately involved with the HUD programs.  Fortunately, or unfortunately for some there was a budget cycle looming and cut backs were to be made.  The mayors office along with other departments were asked to share the pain of those cutbacks and made a public statement declaring that he had done just that.  During this time however, I was contacted by some insiders at city hall who told me that the mayor had not actually cut his staff but simply moved some under the umbrella of the Faith Based office. I got the paperwork and records to back up the tip and took it to several on council.   Then while working with a member of council to dissect that years budget, this issue came up and was shared again.  Finally during the wee hours of a very long budget meeting that lasted until 3:00 AM, a motion was made to cut the funding for the Faith Based office and thus this agency that funneled tax dollars to religious organizations and was at the heart of scandal quietly closed.  Another fine example of why religion and governance should never mix and frankly of how some conservatives tried to get around the fact that federal and other government money was indeed being funneled to religious organizations. There is also an "unspoken" truth here which is that an office such as this, with funding for minority programs, was also another nifty mechanism for control in minority districts.  Promises of money lead to folks going along to get along and then cut each others throats.

As noted by the monument, anyone can abuse the taxpayers trust, however, I do not believe all faith based initiatives are endorsements and nor should they be.

People confuse the separation of church "and" state with the concept of church "from" state.

In this case "and" is desirable, "from" is not.

I have worked with a church based shelter in Chicago that received public funds from the city to run remote shelters during the winter time to protect the homeless. We were recognized as one of the best run, most efficient and most caring shelters run in the city. We kept a strict accounting of our labor and expenses and always met the City of Chicago guidelines for accountability. They annually came to us to look for more ability to work with their homeless population. The City was not endorsing any religious view with this agreement, they needed someone with the expertise and skills who could work with the homeless in the terrible conditions of wintertime.

As long as faith based initiatives work like this, I don't think there will ever be any issues.

But if it becomes a cash grab with nothing to show for it, or a political payback then yes, someone was sleeping at the switch and the train ran off the tracks. Call it anything, faith based or what ever, this is stealing from the taxpayer plain and simple and should not be tolerated in any agreement using public funds.

Faith based initiatives don't have issues as long as they can meet a public need much better than a private or public effort can accomplish. The City of Chicago didn't care if you were from the Brotherhood of Buddhist Monks or worshiped the Dalai Lama. All they cared was that if a faith based org could do it better and cheaper then they could, they were used.

[Rob68]

To me and many others in our nation faith based anything has no place in public..your faith is exactly that..yours..im sick and tired of having religion shoved down my throat every day...keep your faith at home where it belongs..not in public

[Cheshire Cat]

Is it still there ?

I honestly don't know.  Perhaps someone in the area can chime in on this.

[Cheshire Cat]

To me and many others in our nation faith based anything has no place in public..your faith is exactly that..yours..im sick and tired of having religion shoved down my throat every day...keep your faith at home where it belongs..not in public

Ahhh...the irony of intolerance...

Keeping religion out of government is not intolerance.  It is in fact protecting the masses from manipulation via our government based on the religious doctrines and beliefs of a few.     The founding fathers knew that.  Keeping our government from the fatal folly of theocracy is crucial to fair representation of all. 

[Cheshire Cat]

To me and many others in our nation faith based anything has no place in public..your faith is exactly that..yours..im sick and tired of having religion shoved down my throat every day...keep your faith at home where it belongs..not in public

Ahhh...the irony of intolerance...

Keeping religion out of government is not intolerance.  It is in fact protecting the masses from manipulation via our government based on the religious doctrines and beliefs of a few.     The founding fathers knew that.  Keeping our government from the fatal folly of theocracy is crucial to fair representation of all.

Yes, but thats not what Rob68 said is it. He said faith has no place in public. That is pushed down his throat. And one should keep their faith at home. He's sick and tired of it. People used to make the same statement Rob68 made except substituted homosexuals or mixed race couples in it. If you are familiar with Robs posts, most included calling people bigots and homophobes and denouncing these people he thinks are bigots and homophobes. Thus his comment shows lack of tolerance that he demeans others for not having, and so, it's ironic as well.

I am not familiar with any other postings of his.  My response was simply to say that keeping religion out of politics is not a discriminatory view but rather a view that says our government needs to be free from the manipulation of any particular religious doctrine in order to serve and represent all fairly. The rest of his views I know nothing about.

[ronchamblin]

Delighted to see CC, spuwho, and others offering their perceptions of the local political / religio dynamics.  This is my kind of thinking.  Unfortunately my ignorance precludes my contributing thoughts at the same detail as my eloquent friends.

However, if I might contribute a thought or analogy on a general level ... Let's assume that our objective is to achieve a water that is clear ... that is, less muddy ... less obscured by contaminants.

Let's assume also, that the clear water is desirable simply because it is good for all citizens using it for bathing, cooking, and drinking.  Given the importance of having clear water, one might inquire as to the nature of any contaminants ... and thus, seek not only their removal, but prevention of future entry.

We might consider that our political environment is like a tank of water, and that we might wish to keep it clean of contaminants so as to serve all citizens.

I consider any religious thinking, ideas, acts, or programs ... if allowed to engage city hall too closely ... to be contaminants in our governmental tank so to speak ... obscuring the process ... affecting negatively the process by which we attempt to serve all citizens.

Even though I find myself almost mistrusting the governmental process, as I look upon living in the anarchy of nature as being the eden to which all would, in the ideal, find happiness ... I find it difficult ... even with all the goals, activities, and frivolities available to everyone ... to perceive of anything more important than the governmental process, as it ultimately affects the quality of life of all citizens in our current societal predicament.

Acknowledging our need for a spiritual essence, religious thinking, because it involves faith ... too often avoids reason as related to the realities surrounding difficult problems.   Those problems must be solved, not by faith, hope, or prayer, but by intense efforts to discover clearly their nature ... and the mechanisms through which the problems persist decade after decade.  Religion and all its peripheral aspects and tentacles, can create a mood ... a habit ... affecting even local governmental processes ... of shifting responsibility to others ... even to a god ... so that when confronted with a problem, one might rely on anything other than effective problem solving.   

As my friends above have already conveyed more directly ... religion can, and often does ... contaminate ... muddying a water.  Surely, we need clear water ... as its clarity will make much easier the task of improving the quality of life of all citizens.  As contaminants usually sink to the bottom of a tank of water ... where the supply to the mass of citizens exists, there is always a clear layer of water at the top which, by some quirk of fate, is eagerly and continually consumed by those few who possess the skimmer mechanisms to do so ... mechanisms perhaps provided by position, wealth, and privilege.

 

[ronchamblin]

Quote from: stephendare

And its not like their irony meter is out of whack.  They can always see the irony of  extreme conservative social politics discussed as gentle Christianity.  Faith, whether religious or not, has a place in any part of life I suspect.

Like your association of "extreme conservatism" to "gentle Christianity" Stephen.  Hidden greed and motives within essentially good and well meaning institutions. And or course, there is room for, and necessity for, faith in real life.  Its the extreme reliance upon it that is of concern, as it tends to remove the necessity to act, when action is necessary.   

[Cheshire Cat]

Well, I have been holding my breath during my posting of political threads in the interest of creating engaged and informed voters.  I had been hoping that the message of each and every one would be clearly understood and have taken pains to say this thread was not meant as a discussion about religion, yet you and Ron took it there.  Why?  This thread is meant to be about the fact that when it comes to politics, the evangelicals of the mostly white GOP are often walking in lock step with the black evangelicals of the Dem party which impacts how these folks vote on issues like the HRO for instance.  Now the other shoe has fallen and I again see the old dynamics that led me to stop posting on this forum for an extended time coming out in full force and the thread derailed into another tedious contest of Ron vs Stephen.

Simply put Stephen Dare, you have managed again to fall into your role of the "contrary" and with Ron's help managed derail this thread into a  wordy discourse about religion and intolerance, including comments including references to "Hitler".  Seriously?  This is the kind of nonsense and undercutting conversation that muddies the water when it comes to understanding the political landscape of Jacksonville and helping the voter gain some insight into what influences local politics.  You have effectively derailed the conversation from that to an argument about religion which I stated in my opening posts something I hoped would not happen.

[Cheshire Cat]

Stephen,  I refuse to do a word dance with you or take your bait about other issues not connected to the discussion.  I will leave it for the readers to decided whose posting style is unflattering or unbecoming as well as who stays on topic.   Thank you! 

[Cheshire Cat]

Ridiculous...I can't believe this topic about politics and religion has devolved into some discussion about...well...politics and religion.

and so it goes, thereby diluting the initial information being shared that many do not understand impacts our local politics which is that there is an overlap of evangelical conservatives in both major parties.  Many have failed to realize this because they feel that the Democrat party is a party of liberals.  The reality is that many black evangelicals in the Democratic party do not vote liberally when it comes to issues like gender equality, a woman's right to her own body and civil rights. That was and remains the point.  Along with the revelation that there are those in the GOP who will vote in support of issues considered more liberal.