Learning from Raleigh, NC

[Metro Jacksonville]

Learning from Raleigh, NC



Known as the  City of Oaks , Raleigh is the second largest city in North Carolina and one of the most rapidly growing cities in the country.  Raleigh's 2003  Livable Streets  Downtown Plan provides a startling contrast when compared to some of our most recent developments.  

Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/791

[copperfiend]

The picture of the Marriott in Raleigh really makes the Adam's Mark look like a disaster.

[vicupstate]

Fantastic article.  I like the way the Jax comparisions were incoporated into the major themes/points of the article. 

It really isn't rocket science folks.  Enough cities have tried and failed, and enough have tried and succeeded, that it is now pretty much a science of how to bring back an urban area.

The key is that the leadership has to UNDERSTAND what it takes and have the COURAGE to follow through.

Fayetteville Street is a case study of why pedestrian malls ALMOST never work.     

[Lunican]

This is a good story. Raleigh has definitely come a long way in just a few years.

Also, Fayetteville Street was covered about a year ago.
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/419/

[thelakelander]

This plaza, now under construction, along Fayetteville Street is another great example of working with existing structures in a way that makes their uses more visible.



This end of Fayetteville Street is similar to Jacksonville's Independent/Hogan Street intersection.  By simply making that intersection a focal point of activity (perhaps an outdoor plaza, with The doomed "Big Ideas" famous kiddie fountain as one of the focal points) and encouraging the owners of the TU Center, the Landing and the Enterprise Center to improve portions of their structures on the corner to open up into this space, the Northbank could easily have a visible outdoor spot that attracts a diverse crowd around the clock.  This is the ultimate power of a development plan that focuses on "horizontal" improvements.  It gives us the ability to improve and bring better visibility to what we already have, as opposed to waiting for the next Cameron Kuhn, LandMar or Donald Trump to come in and save us from ourselves.

[Bike Jax]

That is one nice looking downtown. Great article and pictures. Does Jacksonville even have a Master Plan or any plan for that matter? Hell, they (the city) don't even have to come up with any brilliant ideas. All they have to do is take a look at the cites that are getting it right. They don't even have to travel (We all know how much they like spending our money for that). They can just look here at this post and at all the previous comparisons.

Here's an idea. Judging by what I have see first hand, read here and through other local blogs and forums. The city is not willing or capable of doing much of anything right. And with what I've read here and from other sources. "We the people" do seem to have a better grip on reality then our elected and appointed officials. So why not get together and create The Citizens Master Plan For Jacksonville. Or even just limit the plan to the urban core. It's not a new idea (google Citizens master plan) and city and county governments tend to respond (at least other cities do) when well thought out plans are handed to them.

[RiversideGator]

I havent been there in a few years but I recall Raleigh being as much if not more sprawled and decentralized than Jacksonville with a small downtown.  Perhaps things have changed for the better.  I wish them well.

[thelakelander]

Its still pretty sprawled.  Definately moreso than Jacksonville.  However, the small downtown is seeing some positive coordinated activity on the streets, which is amazing considering we still have more building fabric and have added more residential units in our downtown since 2000.

[heights unknown]

Raleigh is definitely older than Jacksonville; don't think that it is really smaller.  I'll bet if Jax had those old City limits, Raleigh would be much bigger population-wise.

Where's all of the people?  Looks like Jax on a Saturday or Sunday though I've been told that pedestrian activity in Jax is picking up after regular work week and weekends.  Nice mid-rise skyline, modern, clean and well proportioned.  Looks like a clean city.  Population between Jax and Raleigh is similar.

Heights Unknow

[thelakelander]

Raleigh is definitely older than Jacksonville; don't think that it is really smaller.  I'll bet if Jax had those old City limits, Raleigh would be much bigger population-wise.

Raleigh is definately smaller and more spread out.  Census numbers show Raleigh to be much smaller as well:

Jacksonville:

Urbanized area population: 882,295 (2000 census numbers)

urbanized land area: 1,063.2 square miles

urbanized area population density: 2,149.2 residents per square mile


Raleigh

Urbanized area population: 541,527 (2000 census numbers)

urbanized land area: 827.8 square miles

urbanized area population density: 1,694.3 residents per square mile

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Urban_Areas_%26_Urban_Clusters

Where's all of the people?  Looks like Jax on a Saturday or Sunday though I've been told that pedestrian activity in Jax is picking up after regular work week and weekends.  Nice mid-rise skyline, modern, clean and well proportioned.  Looks like a clean city.  Population between Jax and Raleigh is similar.

Heights Unknow

Raleigh was a drive thru city for me on my way to another destination.  We made it to Raleigh on a Friday night around 11pm and left Saturday around 9am.  That Friday night, the city market area was pretty vibrant with all of the restuarants, clubs and art studios open.  There's also an entertainment district just outside of downtown (not shown in these photos) that looked to resemble our Five Points in size and scale.  I walked around downtown Raleigh, that Saturday morning between the hours of 7am and 9am, so this is why it looks pretty empty.

[Ocklawaha]

Hey Lake, maybe you guys can load this? You want to play Cities and I couldn't resist...It's funny, North Carolina has been a leader as has PA, CA, IL in state funded Rail or Amtrak rail. They don't get shut up when they mention "Amtrak" in a metro-rail meeting!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUYtF98KgV8&feature=related

You know, a real side by side with Medellin, would be very interesting. Rather then bulldoze their history and culture, they embrace it. Toss in the welcome addition of arts and new ideas and what a mix. The quick scenes of endless lights are over a raging river in the median of a freeway and next to my railroads (both).
The song is saying Medellin is the flower of Spring, land of eternal spring, always in bloom. Enjoy.

Ocklawaha

[rnc2mbfl]

Raleigh is definitely older than Jacksonville; don't think that it is really smaller.  I'll bet if Jax had those old City limits, Raleigh would be much bigger population-wise.

Raleigh is definately smaller and more spread out.  Census numbers show Raleigh to be much smaller as well:

Jacksonville:

Urbanized area population: 882,295 (2000 census numbers)

urbanized land area: 1,063.2 square miles

urbanized area population density: 2,149.2 residents per square mile


Raleigh

Urbanized area population: 541,527 (2000 census numbers)

urbanized land area: 827.8 square miles

urbanized area population density: 1,694.3 residents per square mile

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Urban_Areas_%26_Urban_Clusters

Where's all of the people?  Looks like Jax on a Saturday or Sunday though I've been told that pedestrian activity in Jax is picking up after regular work week and weekends.  Nice mid-rise skyline, modern, clean and well proportioned.  Looks like a clean city.  Population between Jax and Raleigh is similar.

Heights Unknow

Raleigh was a drive thru city for me on my way to another destination.  We made it to Raleigh on a Friday night around 11pm and left Saturday around 9am.  That Friday night, the city market area was pretty vibrant with all of the restuarants, clubs and art studios open.  There's also an entertainment district just outside of downtown (not shown in these photos) that looked to resemble our Five Points in size and scale.  I walked around downtown Raleigh, that Saturday morning between the hours of 7am and 9am, so this is why it looks pretty empty.

I stumbled upon this website while searching Google for some downtown Raleigh information.   It's interesting to read about one's city from another city's perspective.   Before I respond to this particular posting, let me disclose that I am a resident of both Raleigh and Miami Beach.   So, I have a strong desire to see both the state of NC and FL excel!

Raleigh's downtown renaissance has been very deliberate and hard fought.  While the city's mayor and council are bent to the progressive and liberal side, they have certainly had their share of naysayers challenging them from the conservatives.  The city itself is pretty much half Democrats and half Republicans.  As typical, the further from the city center one goes, the more Republican it becomes and vice versa.   The hard work of the city leaders is paying off with enormous energy moving the city forward this decade.   At about 115 sq. miles, the city's current population stands somewhere north of 380,000.   In the last 8 years, this has translated to an absolute number gain in city population alone of over 100,000.  Wake County (of which Raleigh is the county seat) is fast approaching 900,000 and is the 8th fastest growing county in the nation.  While the previous post paints a picture of low density in comparison to Jacksonville, my guess is that density numbers can be manipulated in ways that express the outcome we desire.   For instance, I can paint them this way:

Raleigh city limits (2007 census.gov): 375,806 @ 115 sq/miles for a density of 3304 people/sq mile
Wake Co (2007 census.gov:   832,970 @ 857 sq/miles (832 land) for a density of 1003 people/sq mile

Jacksonville city limits (2007 census.gov): 805,605 @ 767 sq/miles for a density of 1050 people/sq mile
Duval County (2007 census.gov):  849,159 @ 918 sq/miles (774 land) for a density of 925 people/sq mile

The total population of the entire metro area of Raleigh/Durham/Chapel Hill is over 1.6 million.   In the year ending July 2007, this metro area added more people than the entire state of Florida.  By 2010, Raleigh's city population will be about double of what it was in 1990 as will Wake County's.  Its growth rate continues to be the fastest in NC and some planners are suggesting that the city and metro could double again in population over the next 25 years.

As Raleigh grows, it competes with neighboring towns in the county for land expansion. It's bounded to the South and SW by Garner and Cary.  To the NE, it's limited by Wake Forest and to the East it's hemmed in by Knightdale.  So, it doesn't have hundreds of square miles within which to grow.  So, for me, the growth in population is impressive.  Raleigh's focus on downtown is matched by an emerging "midtown" area just a few miles North and Northwest of the city center.  Older legacy retail mall centers are currently being re-imagined to include mix use development including a variety of hotels, outdoors shopping, entertainment and housing.  North Hills in particular is the epicenter of Raleigh's urbanization effort in former suburban only areas. 

Several new downtown condo projects open this Fall thru next Spring and will bring hundreds of new residents to the core of downtown and the adjacent urban neighborhood of Glenwood South (one of the named downtown districts).  Adjacent historic neighborhoods to the immediate East and West of downtown provide additional residential options within walking or cycling distance of downtown.   Of course, Raleigh is also the state capital and brings the state goverment activity, state museums and the performing arts.  Raleigh is far from being a 24 hour urban oasis like SouthBeach but it makes progress each year and I am excited to see that similar energy brewing in Jacksonville! 

Just this weekend, amid T.S. Hanna, Raleigh officially opened its new convention center.  It connects underground to the Marriott City Center that opened in July.  It's a magnificent facility and I look forward to the next chapter of development nearby with more hotels and condos coming out of the ground in the land that once housed the old civic center to the East.  On the West side of the new Conv. center, the property that housed the construction offices for this massive project will soon become an outdoor amphitheater.

As you can probably tell, I have a lot of pride in Raleigh.  My family moved to Raleigh when I was just 11 from California and the city was but a "speck of dust".  It's received a lot of accolades over the years but is just now getting to the scale that is drawing attention from outside the midatlantic.

If anyone is interested in some websites regarding how Raleigh is managing, marketing and growing downtown, I offer these links:

http://www.godowntownraleigh.com/
http://travel.nytimes.com/2006/02/12/travel/12surfacing.html
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9F05E7DF1039F937A15751C0A9679C8B63&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=1
http://www.newsobserver.com/news/wake/raleigh/story/1137946.html
http://www.wral.com/news/local/story/2945616/
http://www.blountstreetcommonsraleigh.com/
http://www.newraleigh.com/articles/archive/the-edison-downtown-raleigh/
http://www.raleighnc.gov/portal/server.pt/gateway/PTARGS_0_2_306_203_0_43/http;/pt03/DIG_Web_Content/project/public/livable_streets/index.htm
http://www.bizjournals.com/triangle/stories/2007/08/20/story1.html
http://dtraleigh.com/

[thelakelander]

Great post.  Thanks for the links.  I was impressed with the level of quality development that is occurring in Raleigh.  I really hope the proposed rail system connecting the city with Durham becomes reality.  That will really make growth take off, forming a stronger connection with the other cities in the area.

Raleigh city limits (2007 census.gov): 375,806 @ 115 sq/miles for a density of 3304 people/sq mile
Wake Co (2007 census.gov:   832,970 @ 857 sq/miles (832 land) for a density of 1003 people/sq mile

Jacksonville city limits (2007 census.gov): 805,605 @ 767 sq/miles for a density of 1050 people/sq mile
Duval County (2007 census.gov):  849,159 @ 918 sq/miles (774 land) for a density of 925 people/sq mile

Although the MSA is larger than Jacksonville's, Raleigh feels like a smaller community within its older urban neighborhoods and in terms of historic building fabric.  However, that's not a knock on the city, Jacksonville just happened to be a much larger city during the era of time before automobiles and sprawl took over.   

While MSA, CSA and city limit numbers can be easily manipulated, urban area numbers tend to be the best in comparing the actual size of American urban areas.  These numbers eliminate the differences in city limit size and areas of cities that can't be developed like swamps, mountains, rivers and wetlants, etc.  Nevertheless, the size of the urban community isn't the most important factor.  Few would argue that urban Phoenix is more sustainable or attractive than urban Portland.  Depsite being smaller then Jax, in terms of urban area, Raleigh definately leads in terms of progressive development.  Like Charlotte, Raleigh seems like a community that has a vision.  Our city would be much better off if we can find away to incorporate some of the things that Raleigh has done (like the new convention center), in our own landscape.

[rnc2mbfl]

Great post.  Thanks for the links.  I was impressed with the level of quality development that is occurring in Raleigh.  I really hope the proposed rail system connecting the city with Durham becomes reality.  That will really make growth take off, forming a stronger connection with the other cities in the area.

Although the MSA is larger than Jacksonville's, Raleigh feels like a smaller community within its older urban neighborhoods and in terms of historic building fabric.  However, that's not a knock on the city, Jacksonville just happened to be a much larger city during the era of time before automobiles and sprawl took over. 

The interesting thing about Raleigh and the Triangle is the somewhat bizzare nature of the employment centers.  While most cities have theirs downtown, Raleigh and Durham have their biggest one between them.   It's the Research Triangle Park.  The success of the "Park" has provided a mixed bag of intended and unintended consequences and I could probably argue both sides until the cows come home.   But, in the end, the Park itself has been a catalyst to providing the area with high paying jobs and one of the most educated workforces in the nation.  So, while I am not a proponent of campus type outer suburban work centers, the nature of the work the Park has brought has paid off in spades for the Metro Area. 

It doesn't surprise me that Raleigh "feels like a smaller community" to you.   Many neighborhoods in town survived the 20th century intact as the growing corporations expanded in the burbs first.   Neighborhoods that would surely have been wiped out survived the period when such neighborhoods were eagerly demolished for progress.   Even today, as traffic swirls around the two (well...1 and a half) loop highways and the outer edges feel like US anywhere, the old city retains it's more human scale and charm of a state capital and college town.  Since the vast amount of the Triangle was built since the mid 60s, The limited amount of older neighborhoods in Raleigh are highly cherished and are among the highest priced real esate (per s.f.) in the State.  In addition to the historic and other charming older neighborhoods near downtown, the state's largest university (NC State) is just a mile West of downtown proper.   

Now that there is renewed interest in urbanism, Raleigh doesn't have to reinvigorate much to increase the vitality of the greater area.  Except for some neighborhoods to the SE of downtown, the old school neighborhoods are well kept and are adjacent to some of the best schools in the city.  The city has maintained much of the original plan of the city from 1792 and the governmental nature of Raleigh has kept the state government a big player downtown.  The emerging corporate investment has been more mixed use than single use occupancy.  For instance, RBC (Royal Bank of Canada) is opening its US HQ downtown with 11 floors of luxury condos on top of it.  Many of the new hotels planned for the area are also combining condo living into their mixes.   The growing Centenial Campus at NC State has a trifecta strategy of Learning/Business/Living as University staff and students interplay with corporations and residents just 2 miles SW of downtown.   So, in the end, I am hopeful that the city center will continue to grow without sacrificing those attributes that other cities abandoned along their way.

Might I suggest an easy and interesting read?  Check out Christopher Lineberger's "The Option of Urbanism".   While I suspect it will be preaching to the choir as far as you are concerned (just a hunch), it does provide some historical context to how we got to where we are in America and how we will get to what's next. 

BTW, using 2000 census data for Raleigh in 2008 is like comparing apples and oranges.  The city has grown 40% since then and the county has added nearly 250,000 people.

Here are a few more links that might be of interest to you.
http://www.rbcplazacondos.com/
http://www.centennial.ncsu.edu/

[thelakelander]

The interesting thing about Raleigh and the Triangle is the somewhat bizzare nature of the employment centers.  While most cities have theirs downtown, Raleigh and Durham have their biggest one between them.   It's the Research Triangle Park.  The success of the "Park" has provided a mixed bag of intended and unintended consequences and I could probably argue both sides until the cows come home.   But, in the end, the Park itself has been a catalyst to providing the area with high paying jobs and one of the most educated workforces in the nation.  So, while I am not a proponent of campus type outer suburban work centers, the nature of the work the Park has brought has paid off in spades for the Metro Area.

Research Triangle Park would officially qualify as an "Edge City" ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edge_city ), similar to DC's Tyson's Corner, Tampa's West Shore or Jacksonville's Southside.  I kind of find it depressing that Jacksonville's Southside now has more office square footage then Downtown. 

It doesn't surprise me that Raleigh "feels like a smaller community" to you.   Many neighborhoods in town survived the 20th century intact as the growing corporations expanded in the burbs first.   Neighborhoods that would surely have been wiped out survived the period when such neighborhoods were eagerly demolished for progress.   Even today, as traffic swirls around the two (well...1 and a half) loop highways and the outer edges feel like US anywhere, the old city retains it's more human scale and charm of a state capital and college town.  Since the vast amount of the Triangle was built since the mid 60s, The limited amount of older neighborhoods in Raleigh are highly cherished and are among the highest priced real esate (per s.f.) in the State.  In addition to the historic and other charming older neighborhoods near downtown, the state's largest university (NC State) is just a mile West of downtown proper.

The major difference is Raleigh was just a smaller town when the automobile era took off. 

Raleigh
1930 population: 37,379
1940 population: 46,879
1950 population: 65,679

Jacksonville (this is before the city merged with Duval County)
1930 population: 129,549
1940 population: 173,065
1950 population: 204,275

Jacksonville's older residential neighorhoods still retain their human scale, but tend to be denser because they were largely developed during an era before automobiles became the dominant mode of transportation.  Streetcars and walking were the main ways to get around town in those days, so the older buildings tended to be constructed closer together, similar to what we see in historic Savannah or Charleston today.  On the other hand, during this same time period, Raleigh was a much smaller community so it never had a chance to develop the level of historic urban fabric Jacksonville had during that era. 

By the same token, despite Jax being larger then Louisville in city and metro population today, Louisville was a much larger city 80 years ago.  Today, Louisville's historic built up urban core is still larger then Jax's despite Jax outgrowing that community in the later half of the 20th century.

Now that there is renewed interest in urbanism, Raleigh doesn't have to reinvigorate much to increase the vitality of the greater area.  Except for some neighborhoods to the SE of downtown, the old school neighborhoods are well kept and are adjacent to some of the best schools in the city.  The city has maintained much of the original plan of the city from 1792 and the governmental nature of Raleigh has kept the state government a big player downtown.  The emerging corporate investment has been more mixed use than single use occupancy.  For instance, RBC (Royal Bank of Canada) is opening its US HQ downtown with 11 floors of luxury condos on top of it.  Many of the new hotels planned for the area are also combining condo living into their mixes.   The growing Centenial Campus at NC State has a trifecta strategy of Learning/Business/Living as University staff and students interplay with corporations and residents just 2 miles SW of downtown.   So, in the end, I am hopeful that the city center will continue to grow without sacrificing those attributes that other cities abandoned along their way.

I hope Raleigh does not repeat the mistakes that Charlotte made.  That community wiped out most of its history in the Uptown area.  We have also made some major mistakes in taking out some of our oldest and densest urban districts.  Because of this, today Downtown Jacksonville is not as vibrant as it could be, if it were still connected with the dense historic districts that were destroyed.

Might I suggest an easy and interesting read?  Check out Christopher Lineberger's "The Option of Urbanism".   While I suspect it will be preaching to the choir as far as you are concerned (just a hunch), it does provide some historical context to how we got to where we are in America and how we will get to what's next.

Thanks, I'll have to check it out. 

BTW, using 2000 census data for Raleigh in 2008 is like comparing apples and oranges.  The city has grown 40% since then and the county has added nearly 250,000 people.

Unfortunately, its the best common element, in terms of numbers, we have right now to compare.  The new urban area numbers won't be out until the official 2010 census is completed.  I'm sure the new numbers will point to more spread out growth in most sunbelt cities like Jax and Raleigh and denser growth in built out cities like Miami.