'What We Have Here Is A Failure To Communicate'

[AaroniusLives]

Anyone who's familiar with Ybor and the Channel District (before and after the opening of the TECO streetcar) knows it had a significant impact on infill development along its route.  It's a winner as a tourist train and stimulator of TOD.

We should really rethink the term "Transit Oriented Development" if nobody is using the transit. At best, it's an atmospheric streetscape addition that helps sell the Channelside development as "urban," even though pretty much everybody drives to and from there.

In that aspect, the TECO streetcar was used to promote a "lifestyle," much like the store Anthropologie uses Janis Joplin music to promote "hippie chic" or SoHo used to promote "bohemian living." All of which are very different from actually living urbanely with transit, as a hippie or as a bohemian, respectively.

Moreover, as DC's recent experience with the H Street Streetcar has shown, cities could get the same gentrification results just by announcing a streetcar project and then killing it.

http://www.citylab.com/commute/2014/05/the-streetcar-minus-streetcar-plan-worked-for-dc/371830/

If the D.C. government's plan all along had been to announce a light-rail project and then scrap it, it would be judged a success by the growth in the Atlas District. Perhaps cities can do exactly that—by widening neighborhood sidewalks, improving streetscapes, and boosting the public transit that already exists along underused commercial corridors. The next city that weighs building a streetcar should consider whether there's a way to be up front about building a streetcar minus the streetcar.

...and, for the record, I'm not against streetcars. I think in the right context, and especially with exclusive right of way, streetcars can be terrific modes of transit. Despite DC's bungling of their streetcar network launch (and absurdly not building it with right of way,) the density of DC warrants streetcars as more than a tourist train or a developmental tool. And there are some terrific international examples of streetcar networks, like the Vienna trams, that demonstrate how a belief and an investment in that mode of transit can be effective as a way to move people.

But, if we're going to ignore or discount international BRT successes such as in Curitiba or Bogota as not-applicable to an American context (as is frequently done at MJ), then Vienna doesn't count, either, and thus far, the modern streetcar in an American context has functioned as a development tool and as streetmosphere versus actual transit.

If that's the case, and people just want to see a streetcar versus actually riding one, a savvy city would announce a streetcar project, get development in the corridor, and then cancel it, perhaps replacing the actual streetcar with sculptures or non-working historical recreations of streetcars for photo opportunities.

Btw, DT Tampa's Marion Street Transitway is also a loser when it comes to BRT.

The Marion Street Transitway being presented as an example of BRT is another example of distortion. Yes, we are talking about an exclusive bus-only transitway...

...that runs for less than a mile downtown.
...that has no special branding, transit vehicles, queue jumps or the rest.
...that pretty much functions as a traffic-free way in or out of the Marion Street Transit Center.

Wake me when HART's MetroRapid gets exclusive ROW and links to that transitway as a larger, non-diet variant of BRT.

Look no further than the traditional land use around Tri-Rail, Metrorail, and the South Miami-Dade Busway (a 13-mile dedicated BRT line that opened in 1997). With that said, when it comes to TOD, compare what's popped up around Metrorail's stations verses the South Miami-Dade Busway's stations. What's your thoughts on why the South Miami-Dade Busway has been as successful in stimulating TOD as Metrorail over the last 17 years?

The busway begins exactly where the last node of urbanity ends in Miami-Dade County, at 'Downtown Kendall,' (itself a "fake downtown" built out of parking lots in the 2000s.) It then stretches from suburb to exurb to the end of the metro area. To put this another way, the busway STARTS at 80th Street (or 80 streets south of downtown Miami,) and ENDS at 344th Street. I would be surprised if a Metrorail lie would have stimulated TOD in that context, let alone the busway.

To give you an idea of the context and distance we're talking about here, Miami-Dade's Transit touts that "Express buses that run on the exclusive lanes now swiftly shuttle passengers between Dadeland South Metrorail station and SW 344 St. in an hour or less."

Interesting to note that it took Miami's Metrorail 20 years to create TOD, and again, with mostly not used transit. That's a multi-billion bet for dense development without actual use of transit.

[thelakelander]

Anyone who's familiar with Ybor and the Channel District (before and after the opening of the TECO streetcar) knows it had a significant impact on infill development along its route.  It's a winner as a tourist train and stimulator of TOD.

We should really rethink the term "Transit Oriented Development" if nobody is using the transit. At best, it's an atmospheric streetscape addition that helps sell the Channelside development as "urban," even though pretty much everybody drives to and from there.

In that aspect, the TECO streetcar was used to promote a "lifestyle," much like the store Anthropologie uses Janis Joplin music to promote "hippie chic" or SoHo used to promote "bohemian living." All of which are very different from actually living urbanely with transit, as a hippie or as a bohemian, respectively.

I think the term is fine. The nature of the development and form of buildings adjacent to it's stations isn't changing. What tenants in these buildings use the line for will change depending on future operations and connectivity of the transit infrastructure.

Right now, we're judging the first phase of an incomplete part of Tampa's transit system.  Because it's not integrated with the rest of Tampa's neighborhoods and employment centers, the dominant use of transit is for travel to and from hotels, entertainment and dining available along the route that exists.  That's probably not going to change until HART treats the streetcar like a part of it's public transit system and better integrates it with everything else they're running.

Moreover, as DC's recent experience with the H Street Streetcar has shown, cities could get the same gentrification results just by announcing a streetcar project and then killing it.

http://www.citylab.com/commute/2014/05/the-streetcar-minus-streetcar-plan-worked-for-dc/371830/

If the D.C. government's plan all along had been to announce a light-rail project and then scrap it, it would be judged a success by the growth in the Atlas District. Perhaps cities can do exactly that—by widening neighborhood sidewalks, improving streetscapes, and boosting the public transit that already exists along underused commercial corridors. The next city that weighs building a streetcar should consider whether there's a way to be up front about building a streetcar minus the streetcar.

Or just design and implement a streetcar (if that's the desired mode) that alleviates transit demand and spurs economic development.  There's no harm in doing things the right way.

...and, for the record, I'm not against streetcars. I think in the right context, and especially with exclusive right of way, streetcars can be terrific modes of transit. Despite DC's bungling of their streetcar network launch (and absurdly not building it with right of way,) the density of DC warrants streetcars as more than a tourist train or a developmental tool. And there are some terrific international examples of streetcar networks, like the Vienna trams, that demonstrate how a belief and an investment in that mode of transit can be effective as a way to move people.

I agree.

But, if we're going to ignore or discount international BRT successes such as in Curitiba or Bogota as not-applicable to an American context (as is frequently done at MJ), then Vienna doesn't count, either, and thus far, the modern streetcar in an American context has functioned as a development tool and as streetmosphere versus actual transit.

They are applicable. But they will cost us just as much as streetcar or LRT, require more maintenance costs and have less capacity.  It's cheaper to lay track than to construct a road. At that point, you really have to start evaluating the ROI. In Houston's case, they decided they were better off scraping their dedicated busway plan and funding LRT instead.  In their evaluation, that was the cheaper option. I find it best to evaluate corridors and surrounding context on an individual basis.  For some, BRT will make more sense.  For others, another mode will. 

In the case of Cleveland, BRT was a better fit for Euclid considering there was a heavy rail line already present a few blocks south, the street needing a makeover, and already paid for ROW being available to shift to bus only lanes.  Locally, I think the Arlington Expressway's service drives provide a perfect opportunity for Jax to experiment with dedicated busways and supportive land use policies between DT and Regency Square Mall.


It would be pretty easy to dedicate on of the two travel lanes on the service drives to transit.

Btw, DT Tampa's Marion Street Transitway is also a loser when it comes to BRT.

The Marion Street Transitway being presented as an example of BRT is another example of distortion. Yes, we are talking about an exclusive bus-only transitway...

...that runs for less than a mile downtown.
...that has no special branding, transit vehicles, queue jumps or the rest.
...that pretty much functions as a traffic-free way in or out of the Marion Street Transit Center.

Wake me when HART's MetroRapid gets exclusive ROW and links to that transitway as a larger, non-diet variant of BRT.

I don't believe that's in their plans.  They have a few more BRT-lite corridors they plan to implement along with LRT.

Look no further than the traditional land use around Tri-Rail, Metrorail, and the South Miami-Dade Busway (a 13-mile dedicated BRT line that opened in 1997). With that said, when it comes to TOD, compare what's popped up around Metrorail's stations verses the South Miami-Dade Busway's stations. What's your thoughts on why the South Miami-Dade Busway has been as successful in stimulating TOD as Metrorail over the last 17 years?

The busway begins exactly where the last node of urbanity ends in Miami-Dade County, at 'Downtown Kendall,' (itself a "fake downtown" built out of parking lots in the 2000s.) It then stretches from suburb to exurb to the end of the metro area. To put this another way, the busway STARTS at 80th Street (or 80 streets south of downtown Miami,) and ENDS at 344th Street. I would be surprised if a Metrorail lie would have stimulated TOD in that context, let alone the busway.

To give you an idea of the context and distance we're talking about here, Miami-Dade's Transit touts that "Express buses that run on the exclusive lanes now swiftly shuttle passengers between Dadeland South Metrorail station and SW 344 St. in an hour or less."

Interesting to note that it took Miami's Metrorail 20 years to create TOD, and again, with mostly not used transit. That's a multi-billion bet for dense development without actual use of transit.

Downtown Kendall is suburban TOD. The density surrounding it and Metrorail stations south of Brickell is roughly the same all the way down to Goulds and Southland Mall (formerly Cutler Ridge). Yet, no TOD. That's pretty damning. Some great opportunities, like directly linking to the Falls was missed during implementation too. Nevertheless, if you want know what took South Florida 20 years to create TOD was them arriving late at the party of integrating supportive land use policy with transportation infrastructure investment. Much of the land use policy and transportation strategies have since been modified and TOD is sprouting as a result.  For smaller cities like Jax, these failures and successes of various systems should provide a better road map for us to avoid the major pitfalls.

[simms3]

Anyone who's familiar with Ybor and the Channel District (before and after the opening of the TECO streetcar) knows it had a significant impact on infill development along its route.  It's a winner as a tourist train and stimulator of TOD.

We should really rethink the term "Transit Oriented Development" if nobody is using the transit. At best, it's an atmospheric streetscape addition that helps sell the Channelside development as "urban," even though pretty much everybody drives to and from there.

In that aspect, the TECO streetcar was used to promote a "lifestyle," much like the store Anthropologie uses Janis Joplin music to promote "hippie chic" or SoHo used to promote "bohemian living." All of which are very different from actually living urbanely with transit, as a hippie or as a bohemian, respectively.

Moreover, as DC's recent experience with the H Street Streetcar has shown, cities could get the same gentrification results just by announcing a streetcar project and then killing it.

Totally agree with this, couldn't have said it better.  In cities like Tampa it's basically just a symbol, or a sign.

If any developer has built anything in Channelside since the implementation of TECO, they may say that the streetcar had an impact on their decisions to build something and how to build something, but most large-community apartment builders (for instance Crescent Heights, as in the owner of Slade, and Novare) have guys way smarter than that.  If there are tax credits, that has a far more significant impact than some worthless streetcar that not even tourists ride (I'd compare ridership to other tourist heavy streetcar routes, or even the Jax Skyway - TECO is not a success imo on any metric).

the main decision on whether to build or not is demand.  And yes, from the beginning, the streetcar helped build the desirability and demand for the area.

Tax credits, location location location, a solid master plan and city backing, and efficient and well run RFPs by the city to develop the land by reputable builders (in addition to growing sunbelt/FL market of nearly 3 million) would be enough to attract a slew of best in class apartment developers.  Of course a streetcar could show additional commitment by the city, but it wouldn't necessarily mean much if anything more than that.

Several condo developments were linked with the streetcar when originally proposed. I'll have to dig in the newspaper archives to makes some links and quotes from that era available. You can get tax credits in several urban neighborhoods in Tampa. The location was also industrial decay and blight for decades. All that changed in the 2000s and the infill has occurred along the entire line, not just the Channel District. I have an old disk around here somewhere of pictures I took a few years before the construction and opening of the streetcar (I believe the people mover was still up then).

The TECO streetcar (in it's current state) is a failure in terms of public transit ridership but it isn't operated for that market segment and we can't deny it hasn't had a major positive impact on infill development.  We can also look at the same city (in the heart of dowtown) and not see the same development pattern occurring around the Marion Street Transitway.

The point still stands.  PR for development is heavily crafted.  I sit in discussions all day all the time about where are we going to buy something, why are we going to buy that, should we move forward with phase II of this condo development or just sell to another guy horny for that type of deal or a certain $$ allocation?  Are we bullish on x market?  Why?

I guarandamntee you guys that there wasn't some meeting held by most or any of the best in class condo/apartment developers down there in FL who built stuff in Channelside who thought - golly gee, Streetcar!  That's why we should build here!  People in Tampa are going to love this thing - they're going to take it to Ybor all the time.  They're going to take it to the trolley connector into work downtown.  It's going to be so cute and useful!  This is why we need to build here.

No.

It's like LEED certification for apartments.  It does NOTHING for the bottom line, but boosts PR a bit, helps tell some "story", and thus affects marketing, to a limited degree (which is why it's pretty much buried in each community's "About" or "Location" description...it's simply mid-paragraph filler at this point).

What it also may have done is be a concrete financial commitment to the area by the city.  Blighted area, re-zoned, talked up by city officials.  Means nothing unless city officials put their money where their mouth is, and that's one thing the streetcar did.  Other than that, I stand by my absolute experience that while there are some idiot developers out there who will buy baloney, many/most see right through this stuff.  And nobody gives transit in the South/Sunbelt that much sway...

Jacksonville's Learn From Tampa lesson could be that it takes absolute signs of commitment from the city to spur development.  In other words, $$$ and action.  Not just words.  That brings me to the convention center...lol

[AaroniusLives]

In response to distortion, let's look at the page one examples promoted in the piece:

Atlanta Streetcar:
http://wabe.org/post/construction-issues-push-atlanta-streetcar-budget-nearly-100-million

http://www.bizjournals.com/atlanta/morning_call/2014/07/atlanta-streetcar-launch-delayed-again.html

http://www.atlantamagazine.com/news-culture-articles/no-you-cant-ride-the-atlanta-streetcar-but-you-can-look-at-these-sneak-peek-photos/

Now, Phase One of the Atlanta Streetcar should function exactly as it is intended to, linking tourist attractions and hotels, from the World of Coke to the Martin Luther King Center. It's interesting to note that one would expect TOD to be limited, as the area is already developed, but as an added perk to tourists and convention attendees, it certainly should deliver.

As for the cost, we're looking at $98,654,716. At 2.7 miles, that breaks down to $36.5 million per mile.

Where I think this project will get interesting is in Phase Two, where the streetcar will run around the Atlanta Beltline, and hopefully will get its own ROW on the route linking central neighborhoods together. Phase Two is in the planning phase and is not funded.





Charlotte CityLYNX Gold Line Corridor:
http://www.wsoctv.com/news/news/local/9-investigates-charlotte-streetcar-financial-boom-/nh7P5/

http://nextcity.org/daily/entry/bike-share-budapest-charlotte-streetcar-automated-trains-dc

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2014/09/14/5170841/despite-claims-streetcar-projected.html#.VHybn75UGS2

The initial segment of this line would, in theory, be a part of a larger, 10-mile line linking the east and west sides of the city. The 4-mile segment will cost $150 million, or $24 million more than the original estimates. That breaks down to $37.5 million per mile.

Having said that, what Charlotte has regarding its transit is vision, exemplified by Council member Al Austin. He compared the streetcar to a hockey player who doesn't play where the puck is but plays "where the puck is going to go."

Notably, it will cost more to transport a passenger on the streetcar than on a bus or the light rail system there. And I'm unsure as to why they don't just make this Gold Line a light rail with exclusive ROW.






Oklahoma City Streetcar
http://okgazette.com/2014/08/18/regional-rail-based-transit-system-plan-could-reach-voters-in-a-few-years/

http://okgazette.com/2014/07/08/streetcar-still-on-track/

http://www.railwayage.com/index.php/passenger/light-rail/oklahoma-city-seeking-streetcar-bids.html

This streetcar project is on-track to open in 2017. The first 4.5 mile segment will connect the Central Business District with the entertainment district, Bricktown, and with the Midtown District. It's estimated to cost $130 million, or $29 million per mile.

It's interesting that the streetcar is part of an overall regional transit plan, much like Charlotte's and that voters approved a sales tax to fund this project and others as a part of the overall plan.






Savannah Streetcar Project
http://savannahnow.com/exchange/2013-08-20/cat-ceo-propose-tad-help-fund-streetcar-project

http://www.wsav.com/story/24173940/savannah-city-council-to-hear-plans-for-streetcar-project

http://www.catconnects.com/home.html

This streetcar project is on hold for the time being, but it certainly looks interesting as both a circulatory tool and as an enhancement to the historic charms of Savannah. Being that this is Georgia, I'm unsure how to take this quote:

City Manager Stephanie Cutter said the city has so many projects on the horizon, like a new arena, that it's too soon to commit to another big undertaking so quickly. The city wants to make sure that when they do take action on having streetcars the project will stay on track and not just fall by the way side.

One could read that as code for political speak for "killing the project softly," or one could view that as smart, genuine city planning. I certainly hope it's the latter, but I've lived in Georgia!






Miami Streetcar
http://www.miamitodaynews.com/2014/10/29/planners-sidetrack-streetcar-plan/

http://therealdeal.com/miami/blog/2014/10/29/miamis-streetcar-plan-revival-hits-snag/

http://www.miamitodaynews.com/2014/11/05/transit-planners-right-track-halt-streetcar-express/

Here's a note on distortion:
Note the headline chosen: "Miami Speeding To Get Streetcars Rolling."
Note the date: Oct. 1st.
Note the pub: Miami Today.
Note my first link: same pub, later date, with the 'sidetracked' streetcar plan for those 'speeding streetcars in Miami.'

That's total distortion.

In Miami, it's not as if the powers that be aren't supportive of a streetcar, it's that they don't want the streetcar to derail other projects. Here's a quote:

"I am still very excited about this project as long as it doesn't compete with all of the other projects that's in the hopper," said board member Audrey Edmonson.

For one, Miami-Dade is working toward countywide bus rapid transit. The county and Miami Beach are collaborating on a downtown-Miami Beach transit link, referred to as Bay Link. And recently, a proposal called for study of a gondola connecting major destinations such as Marlins Stadium and Florida International University.

So, let's see: BRT countywide, a (finally) link to Miami Beach and gondolas are already in the hopper, so streetcars, at least for now, will have to wait. (Honestly, countywide true BRT could be the best thing to ever happen to my former home and my forever hometown.)

Also, it's fascinating that Miami (finally) seems to 'get' what transit planning is all about.

It was the right track [to put the streetcar on hold] precisely because, as the Metropolitan Planning Organization decided last month, we've already got too many pieces of a transit jigsaw puzzle that don't interlock into a unified whole.

Well, I've dilly-dallied waaaaaaay too much this morning at work. But note that I pretty much covered page one, didn't diss the mode, or offer a distorted view of the debate going on.





 

[thelakelander]

I guarandamntee you guys that there wasn't some meeting held by most or any of the best in class condo/apartment developers down there in FL who built stuff in Channelside who thought - golly gee, Streetcar!  That's why we should build here!  People in Tampa are going to love this thing - they're going to take it to Ybor all the time.  They're going to take it to the trolley connector into work downtown.  It's going to be so cute and useful!  This is why we need to build here.

Luckily, no one ever stated this.  I don't believe this type of meeting is a requirement for TOD. The streetcar and coordination of supportive public land uses helped create an environment that was worth investing in, as opposed to the crime ridden blighted industrial district that was in place for decades before the early 2000s. It's hard to deny this if you're really familiar with the area before and after 2000.

What it also may have done is be a concrete financial commitment to the area by the city.  Blighted area, re-zoned, talked up by city officials.  Means nothing unless city officials put their money where their mouth is, and that's one thing the streetcar did.

I agree.  $$$ talks. Something else walks.

Other than that, I stand by my absolute experience that while there are some idiot developers out there who will buy baloney, many/most see right through this stuff.

I don't think anyone here is arguing about what developers see through. Just that the TECO streetcar has stimulated TOD. Nothing more, nothing less.

Jacksonville's Learn From Tampa lesson could be that it takes absolute signs of commitment from the city to spur development.  In other words, $$$ and action.  Not just words.  That brings me to the convention center...lol

Again, I agree. Hot air won't get Jax anywhere.

[AaroniusLives]

Downtown Kendall is suburban TOD. The density surrounding it and Metrorail stations south of Brickell is roughly the same all the way down to Goulds and Southland Mall (formerly Cutler Ridge). Yet, no TOD. That's pretty damning. Some great opportunities, like directly linking to the Falls was missed during implementation too. Nevertheless, if you want know what took South Florida 20 years to create TOD was them arriving late at the party of integrating supportive land use policy with transportation infrastructure investment. Much of the land use policy and transportation strategies have since been modified and TOD is sprouting as a result.  For smaller cities like Jax, these failures and successes of various systems should provide a better road map for us to avoid the major pitfalls.

As someone who lived there from birth to 18, and frequently goes back to visit my peeps and relatives, that's not true. There's a similar density pattern from Viscaya to Dadeland South, and then it switches to less dense but still 'suburban dense' until the former Cutler Ridge, and then it turns into pretty much not dense. There's also, notably community resistance to said dense development. If I recall correctly, one of the reasons Pinecrest incorporated was the unwanted Dadeland density.

[thelakelander]

In Miami, it's not as if the powers that be aren't supportive of a streetcar, it's that they don't want the streetcar to derail other projects. Here's a quote:

"I am still very excited about this project as long as it doesn't compete with all of the other projects that's in the hopper," said board member Audrey Edmonson.

For one, Miami-Dade is working toward countywide bus rapid transit. The county and Miami Beach are collaborating on a downtown-Miami Beach transit link, referred to as Bay Link. And recently, a proposal called for study of a gondola connecting major destinations such as Marlins Stadium and Florida International University.

So, let's see: BRT countywide, a (finally) link to Miami Beach and gondolas are already in the hopper, so streetcars, at least for now, will have to wait. (Honestly, countywide true BRT could be the best thing to ever happen to my former home and my forever hometown.)

Also, it's fascinating that Miami (finally) seems to 'get' what transit planning is all about.

I'd be surprised if they are going to invest in countywide dedicated busways.  I'd bet the house, they are talking about BRT-lite, not that there's anything wrong with it. South Florida's mass transit network can use all the help it can get and there's not enough money to implement all of its needs at once.

[thelakelander]

Downtown Kendall is suburban TOD. The density surrounding it and Metrorail stations south of Brickell is roughly the same all the way down to Goulds and Southland Mall (formerly Cutler Ridge). Yet, no TOD. That's pretty damning. Some great opportunities, like directly linking to the Falls was missed during implementation too. Nevertheless, if you want know what took South Florida 20 years to create TOD was them arriving late at the party of integrating supportive land use policy with transportation infrastructure investment. Much of the land use policy and transportation strategies have since been modified and TOD is sprouting as a result.  For smaller cities like Jax, these failures and successes of various systems should provide a better road map for us to avoid the major pitfalls.

As someone who lived there from birth to 18, and frequently goes back to visit my peeps and relatives, that's not true.

Unless something has changed since 2010, check out the population density maps from the US Census Bureau:

http://projects.nytimes.com/census/2010/map

Everything appears to be pretty consistent (under 5k/mile with a few 5-9k pockets sprinkled in).

[simms3]

I guarandamntee you guys that there wasn't some meeting held by most or any of the best in class condo/apartment developers down there in FL who built stuff in Channelside who thought - golly gee, Streetcar!  That's why we should build here!  People in Tampa are going to love this thing - they're going to take it to Ybor all the time.  They're going to take it to the trolley connector into work downtown.  It's going to be so cute and useful!  This is why we need to build here.

Luckily, no one ever stated this.  I don't believe this type of meeting is a requirement for TOD. The streetcar and coordination of supportive public land uses helped create an environment that was worth investing in, as opposed to the crime ridden blighted industrial district that was in place for decades before the early 2000s. It's hard to deny this if you're really familiar with the area before and after 2000.

What it also may have done is be a concrete financial commitment to the area by the city.  Blighted area, re-zoned, talked up by city officials.  Means nothing unless city officials put their money where their mouth is, and that's one thing the streetcar did.

I agree.  $$$ talks. Something else walks.

Other than that, I stand by my absolute experience that while there are some idiot developers out there who will buy baloney, many/most see right through this stuff.

I don't think anyone here is arguing about what developers see through. Just that the TECO streetcar has stimulated TOD. Nothing more, nothing less.

Jacksonville's Learn From Tampa lesson could be that it takes absolute signs of commitment from the city to spur development.  In other words, $$$ and action.  Not just words.  That brings me to the convention center...lol

Again, I agree. Hot air won't get Jax anywhere.

Just so long as we're on the same page concerning Jacksonville - that the city should realize that most developers aren't going to build something based on the fact they think the #1 selling point will be the actual mobility aspect of whatever transit the city attempts to cook up.  But the city should realize that a meaningful transit project tied to appropriate/flexible up-zoning and land use, well-run RFPs seeking *credible* developers, etc etc will allow for profitable density, a sign of commitment from the city (and tax abatements never hurt!), and a boost to the marketability of a project (as Aaronius says - a "lifestyle" can be promoted.  You can call whatever you have "Slice of New York in Jacksonville" even though it couldn't be further from the truth - the consumer will buy that pitch).

And let's get another thing out on the table - developers (and Wall St) are sheep to each other.  A big name moving on something will attract more attention than ANYTHING.  Portland, OR is the latest market showing this in all of its glory (in terms of straight up office acquisitions - Metlife just bought something there, after we did, and literally every head on Wall St/RE world turned).

[AaroniusLives]

Unless something has changed since 2010, check out the population density maps from the US Census Bureau:

http://projects.nytimes.com/census/2010/map

Everything appears to be pretty consistent (under 5k/mile with a few 5-9k pockets sprinkled in).

Huh. color me wrong!

[thelakelander]

Just so long as we're on the same page concerning Jacksonville - that the city should realize that most developers aren't going to build something based on the fact they think the #1 selling point will be the actual mobility aspect of whatever transit the city attempts to cook up.  But the city should realize that a meaningful transit project tied to appropriate/flexible up-zoning and land use, well-run RFPs seeking *credible* developers, etc etc will allow for profitable density, a sign of commitment from the city (and tax abatements never hurt!), and a boost to the marketability of a project (as Aaronius says - a "lifestyle" can be promoted.  You can call whatever you have "Slice of New York in Jacksonville" even though it couldn't be further from the truth - the consumer will buy that pitch).

Here's where I'm at. If Jax wants to stimulate a vibrant walkable environment, it's going to have to invest in the things that breed it (transportation, land use policies, maintained parks, better schools, etc.).

When it comes to transportation infrastructure, this means permanent human scaled modes.  If the city wants to stimulate autocentric economic development, then invest in beltways and roadway widenings. In both cases, they require a public entity to put their money where their mouth is.

[simms3]

^^^True.

[AaroniusLives]

Another chunk:
Winston-Salem Streetcar
http://www.railwayage.com/index.php/passenger/light-rail/winston-salem-set-to-ok-streetcar-plan.html

http://www.bizjournals.com/triad/blog/morning-edition/2014/03/winston-salem-council-picks-streetcar-route.html

http://myfox8.com/2014/03/25/winston-salem-hops-on-board-streetcar-route/

Moving forward, a 4-mile, $179 million dollar route. Or $45 million per mile. It's interesting, if baffling that the motion to endorse the route also was a motion for the city to not spend any more money on the streetcar. Incidentally, they chose the streetcar because:

Besse made the argument that developers will build next to fixed rails because they know the streetcar isn't going away, but won't develop near a bus route that can disappear at any time.

Grand Rapids Streetcar
http://www.mlive.com/news/grand-rapids/index.ssf/2014/02/streetcar_plan_for_grand_rapid.html

http://www.mlive.com/news/grand-rapids/index.ssf/2014/02/3_streetcar_routes_in_grand_ra.html

http://www.grbj.com/articles/79323-streetcar-study-should-be-completed-this-year

http://nextcity.org/daily/entry/grand-rapids-good-transit-lessons

http://www.mlive.com/news/grand-rapids/index.ssf/2014/08/striking_gold_with_silver_line.html

In the study phase. A resurrected plan from 2008, which was killed because of the economic recession. The two miles would be estimated to cost between $50 and $60 million per mile. Also a part of a larger, more comprehensive master plan for transit in Grand Rapids, which also just launched a BRT line this year, which cost $40 million for the 9.6 mile line, or $4.2 million per mile. Notably, this is a 'sometimes and some places' exclusive right of way BRT, and is a part of a larger network (detailed in their plan,) including another BRT line, as well as the aforementioned streetcar.

Interestingly, much like Lake mentions a lot, Grand Rapids is looking at transit purpose for each of their lines, with the streetcar making many more stops than what they plan for their BRT lines (although, one supposes, that you could merely stop the bus vehicle more numerously, so one suspects that the development potential in their downtown is also driving this node.)

Perhaps most astonishingly, and as perhaps a sign of the future, check out this quote:

"If we want to chase federal funds, we could be chasing it for the better part of 10 years," said John Logie, a former Grand Rapids mayor who is chairing the committee. "It may not be as hard as we think to raise all of it here."

That's pretty awesome that Grand Rapids may well fund their streetcar without federal funds. Aside from it getting done more quickly, they'll have much more community support and engagement.




Saint Paul Streetcar
http://www.minnpost.com/two-cities/2013/08/seven-proposed-st-paul-streetcar-lines-which-one-goes-first

http://www.railwayage.com/index.php/passenger/light-rail/st-paul-city-council-advances-streetcar-plan.html

http://www.twincities.com/localnews/ci_26119835/st-paul-council-approves-streetcar-study

Study approved unanimously by the city council. The overall plan calls for seven lines, and they are studying a four-mile "starter" line. That would cost $250 million, or $62.5 million per mile. Aside from the usual "no transit" nonsense there, it's interesting that, much like Charlotte, Saint Paul is pursuing this transit option because of future citizens and paradigm shifts:

He said teenagers and 20-somethings are increasingly leading mostly car-free lifestyles, and other modes of transportation are also heavily subsidized by government, including cars.

Tucson Streetcar (Sun Link)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_Link

http://www.kvoa.com/news/tremendous-opening-day-for-sun-link-streetcar/

http://cleantechnica.com/2014/10/13/tucson-streetcar-ridership-surpasses-expectations/

Up and running, and exceeding initial expectations of ridership by a whole lot (from 3500 per day to 5000.) Notably, part of a master plan for the region. Open for about 5 months, and weirdly, did not include streetscape or road rebuilding as a part of the plan (which means that some of the route runs over potholed roads but with snazzy new transit, which seems like a Thunderdome mistake.)




Austin Rail
http://www.citylab.com/commute/2014/06/austin-wants-to-build-a-light-railstreetcar-hybrid/371986/

http://blog.mysanantonio.com/moveit/2014/11/austins-rail-proposal-fails-badly/#22524101=0

http://nextcity.org/daily/entry/light-rail-road-freeway-funding-austin

http://www.citylab.com/commute/2014/07/austins-rail-or-fail-vote-is-uniting-transit-supporters-and-foes/374770/

Failed at the ballot box. Some suspect that the bundling of the light rail system with a roads and highway improvement program peeved both sides of the debate. Some didn't like the route the hybrid light-rail and streetcar was to take.




Sarasota Streetcar
http://sarasotastreetcar.com/category/news

https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=z3eV8wVfzVzw.klV8mnELSQLQ&msa=0

http://letsgetmovingsarasota.com/docs/default-document-library/2012/11/19/2012-11-draft-circulator-report---for-web_ll.pdf

Errr...this seems more like a pipe dream than an actual, progressing project. The "studies" proposed are for a system in Nova Scotia, for Chrissakes, and the news page has two items: one from 2013 and one from 2009, with the latter concerning Cincinnati's streetcar system.

This is another example of distortion, where one suspects highly that there's no real initiative or push for a Sarasota streetcar. To put this another way, if one used this criterion, one could easily claim that Jacksonville is "actively developing a streetcar" based on the desire expressed at MetroJacksonville.com.

Notably, Sarasota is pursuing a downtown circulator bus, via the reorganization of existing bus routes...and it doesn't seem as if that's seen any action since 2012.
















 





 

[simms3]

Austin Rail
http://www.citylab.com/commute/2014/06/austin-wants-to-build-a-light-railstreetcar-hybrid/371986/

http://blog.mysanantonio.com/moveit/2014/11/austins-rail-proposal-fails-badly/#22524101=0

http://nextcity.org/daily/entry/light-rail-road-freeway-funding-austin

http://www.citylab.com/commute/2014/07/austins-rail-or-fail-vote-is-uniting-transit-supporters-and-foes/374770/

Failed at the ballot box. Some suspect that the bundling of the light rail system with a roads and highway improvement program peeved both sides of the debate. Some didn't like the route the hybrid light-rail and streetcar was to take.

This bundling helped kill a similar bill in Atlanta a few years ago.  So many people poured their hearts over it, but at the end of the day, neither the car folks nor the transit folks were happy, and people on all sides were displeased at the messaging, which was that "traffic would be relieved", when it was clear that it was more of a jobs/stimulus bill than a true traffic reliever.

[thelakelander]

^That's what a good chunk of transportation projects are these days. Jobs/stimulus projects. SR 9B and the First Coast Expressway aren't needed to "relieve" local streets. Both are examples of projects needed to trigger land development on on the properties surrounding them.