JTA Chairwoman Donna Harper called the system a "light rail on tires."

[Ocklawaha]

JTA Chairwoman Donna Harper called the system a "light rail on tires."  ...What a deluded soul she is. This is NOTHING LIKE LIGHT-RAIL!  It will not operate on exclusive right-of-way, it will not travel at 65 mph, it has little to no permanence to the investment, and as a result it will not produce the glowing results and millions of dollars of new TOD (Transit Oriented Development) that they are promising. Only rail or a BRT investment equal to or exceeding rail will produce this miracle. That failure is guaranteed, and when it occurs the public will realize that this is a $132,000,000 dollar catastrophe, and not for what it is as much as what they are telling us it is.  At some point the City of Jacksonville and JTA will discover that similar sized cities that actually invested in rail have realized a huge return on investment, but to use and promise Cleveland or Bogota type success without a corresponding investment is setting us up for another local transit joke. Today one can pay their fare and ride a bus to Gateway or Avenues Mall, $132,000,000 dollars from now you will be able to pay your fare and ride a bus to Gateway or Avenues Mall. The bus stigma doesn't go away with a painted flying fish. And light-rail systems everywhere carry 30% more passengers then buses on similar routes. Every 10 years we will resurface those roads, every 12 years (or less) we will buy a new fleet. The bus investment alone will exceed $12 million each time they are replaced (FTA figures) . The Flyer will use 19 drivers to carry 855 passengers on 19 buses. 5 streetcars would cost us $17 million, and have a capacity of 850 passengers, using 5 operators. Track has a life span of 45 years and the cars themselves 35.  Cities and research is just now discovering that over the life of the average BRT project, it actually will cost more then a rail based system. The First Coast Flyer is an improvement to be sure, but don't pee on my leg and tell me its raining. 

[thelakelander]

Don't hold it against her. She probably has no idea of the technical details and differences between these modes. She's only regurgitating what's been fed to her over the years. Just promote and treat the Flyer for what it is. Regular, dependable bus service that is expected in any major city of significance. Any comparisons with rail, only sets the public up for disappointment.

[Rob68]

Don't hold it against her. She probably has no idea of the technical details and differences between these modes. She's only regurgitating what's been fed to her over the years. Just promote and treat the Flyer for what it is. Regular, dependable bus service that is expected in any major city of significance. Any comparisons with rail, only sets the public up for disappointment.

thats where you get things wrong..this is not a city of significance..this city is and has been ran by redneck good ole boys and girls who are hell bent on keeping this city in 1956 and i dont see that changing any time soon..i actually see this city where Detroit is in the next 15 yrs if something seriously  isnt done to bring the city's mentality into the 20th. century.

[thelakelander]

Well, I never said this was a city of major significance. I only said that what we're calling BRT is basically regular bus service in any major city of significance. If you're in a place like Chicago, it's not uncommon to expect core bus routes to operate on headways of 15 minutes or less or understand where those routes go. Also, nobody is going around and claiming those routes are like the EL on rubber wheels.  In Charlotte, which already has a "BRT-lite" system similar to the Flyer, between the airport and Uptown (called the Sprinter), no one calls it LRT on rubber wheels. While it is an important piece of their transportation network that they hope to replace with a streetcar one day, nobody goes overboard on selling things to the community that such a product will not be able to deliver.

As for Jax, time moves on and good ole boys and girls eventually die out. It may not happen overnight but I expect Jax will eventually arrive in the 21st century, even if it has to be pulled kicking and screaming.

[jcjohnpaint]

Harper has not been keeping up on her MJ.  I knew this was going to blow Ocks top as soon as I read it.  Did make me cringe.  I don't think the good ol boys will die out, we will just have to balance them with an informed public.  It is happening.  Slowly, but it is happening. 

[Tacachale]

Oh, metrojacksonville. "JTA's doing something that's objectively an improvement, but they're not explaining it in the correct words. Bring out the pitchforks!"

[Ocklawaha]

delude
[dih-lood] 
verb (used with object), deluded, deluding.
1.
to mislead the mind or judgment of; deceive:
His conceit deluded him into believing he was important.

I don't hold this against her or anyone else parroting the 'official JTA line,' and believe me this is their line, 100%. I do question how we manage to appoint someone to chair JTA or serve on its board when they don't know a bus from a bullet train?

I've been pounding on this for 34 years, MJ for nearly 10 years, and we don't appear any closer to actually seeing change in the city's mind set then we did in 1980. WHY?

FDOT's 'official' transportation research center (CUTR - Center for Urban Transportation Research) at the University of South Florida in Tampa, is actually part of 'The National Bus Rapid Transit Institute.' NBRTI, is supported by every bus, asphalt, concrete, tire, oil and gas industry in the country and specializes in vague statements such as "Buses have a higher capacity then rail... buses running on 2 second headways can..." It's a slick presentation, stated rapidly and repeatedly and nobody stops to question how you board or alight from a bus when the next bus arrives in 2 seconds. This CUTR line is the official FDOT line. JTA is operated by the State of Florida, not the City of Jacksonville. Moreover the libertarian 'think tanks' which are supported by the same cadre of industries are loudly parroting the NBRTI spin, convincing many that it's 'expert' 'fellow' speaks only pure tax payer saving truths. The 'expert' is a former FORESTER and apparently didn't complete his university degree in that field either...  So in Florida, we are fighting an uphill battle on all fronts, city, county and state. Thank God that Fort Lauderdale has bucked the 'BRT' line and is investing in streetcar. Perhaps 15 years down the track, when FDOT realizes what they've got, we might see a crack in their door. Until then... Harrumph!

har·rumph verb \hə-ˈrəm(p)f\
: to say (something) in a disapproving or complaining way!

[mbwright]

By wasting money on the BRT, it will guarantee there won't be money in the future for rail.  It would also be more expensive for right of way, and other infrastructure and equipment/cars.

[mbwright]

brainwashing and lies.  I guess a hot wheel or matchbox car is just another vehicle but smaller, and would still serve the same purpose.

[exnewsman]

By wasting money on the BRT, it will guarantee there won't be money in the future for rail.  It would also be more expensive for right of way, and other infrastructure and equipment/cars.

Charlotte has BRT and Light Rail. Worked out for them. JTA's history leaves everyone leery, understandable. But there has been more positive movement from the JTA regarding transit in the past 2 years than the previous 10. They are working closely with AAF. Working with Amtrak to move them from their current location to Downtown at the Union Terminal. The first major bus system modification in 30 years.  Finally have funding for the (very much scaled down and compact) Regional Transit Center. I think Nat Ford gets it. As does Brad Thoburn.

[JeffreyS]

Oh, metrojacksonville. "JTA's doing something that's objectively an improvement, but they're not explaining it in the correct words. Bring out the pitchforks!"

The words matter. Good reliable bus service is a good improvement plan your day, your week or your month around it.  Fixed rail is a fundamental improvement plan your home purchase, your retirement or your business venture around it. The deference between a permanent route and a route that can be moved to a different street are monumental and just not at all interchangeable and people in the transit business should have a grasp of the the basic terminology.

[thelakelander]

JTAs proposed BRT routes aren't good LRT corridors anyway. So it's not a true BRT vs LRT debate. Oh, and yes, JTA has improved since the addition of Ford.

[exnewsman]

JTAs proposed BRT routes aren't good LRT corridors anyway. So it's not a true BRT vs LRT debate. Oh, and yes, JTA has improved since the addition of Ford.

Lake - I think you said in a previous post a few months back that Jacksonville needs it all - light rail/streetcars, BRT, fixed route bus, even the Skyway. I think that needs to be the goal for JTA. Things dropped a bit when James Boyle moved to Alaska. But Fred Jones took his place and understands the multi-modal needs. I think we'll see rail back downtown before 2020. Optimistic perhaps. But its more than possible. Amtrak, AAF. LRT is still out there but that's like 10 years out maybe.

[thelakelander]

My guess is AAF first and perhaps Amtrak or a commuter rail starter line, piggying backing the capacity improvements made to the FEC corridor a result.  I seriously doubt anything involving LRT happens in the next 20 years. We'll have to live with and strive to build around the skyway in the short term.

[spuwho]

I am not a fan of BRT, but I am a fan of the Flyer service. Having JTA start to brand their service types is a great way to start making it relevant to more people.

Is it the kind of investment that draws the masses and corporate HQ's. No.

Is it the kind of service that provides JTA with new levels of experience in running timely express type services....yes.

I have always said that transit has to be comprehensive and complimentary. That means service types that match in QOS, timeliness and supports connectivity.

Now that JTA put their collective stake in the ground its time for COJ to start gaining some experience in TOD. Using Flyer routes would be a great start.