China unveils yet another stealth fighter

[spuwho]

Per Aviation Week:

Avic Shenyang unveiled their new FC-31 Stealth fighter jet at the Airshow China in Zhuhai.

The plane is designed for export and is not related to the Chengdu J-20 Stealth Interceptor current undergoing testing.







However those smoky engines don't look too stealthy at the moment. While they are catching up slowly, this is where Chinese military research is slightly behind the world, in jet engine technology. The Chinese can build them cheaper, faster, but they can't loiter and reach engagement speed as fast as most current NATO models.

It is believed that a naval model will be developed from this to serve on the new PLAN aircraft carriers currently under construction.

[acme54321]

That's a blatant ripoff of the F-35 airframe.  I seriously doubt its true stealth characteristics.

On a side note, we had a F-35 do a approach and go at NAS JAX yesterday, first one I have personally seen here.

[ronchamblin]

What might appear to be a copy of one of the U. S. or Russian designs is perhaps only a consequence of all fighter jet designers having reached the same conclusion ... which is a near "perfect" configuration.  Observe the large wing, which allows very tight turns and more fuel for greater range.  Observe the large empennage surfaces ... also allowing tight turns and precise control ... necessary for violent combat engagement.  Look at the twin engines for reliability, spaced apart for large fuel tanks between, necessary for long range.

Many of the current automobile designs have a wedge shape for efficiency through the air .. giving slight cause for assignment of a copying effort.  Look at the animal, designed by nature ...  having two eyes.  And the human, having the complex hands and feet, and the enlarged brain.  These excellent attributes were not copied.  They evolved according to the mechanisms of Mr. Darwin's well explained process.  Aircraft designs have evolved to very close similarities not necessarily as a consequence of copying, but due to the necessity of achieving the same optimum performance characteristics.

Recall the Lockheed designed F-104 jet fighter of the 1950's.  A beautiful aircraft, but almost useless ,... as many fine looking or beautiful humans are almost useless.  The F-104 had a very short range.  The maneuverability was terrible.  Even though it might have been designed for bomber interception, with the use of air-to-air missiles, it was a failure ... an interim design, on the way to the current designs such as our best, and the best of the Russians and the Chinese.  We sold many of the F-104's to the Germans.  There were cases wherein the pilots ran the aircraft into eternity simply because the too-small wing would not allow a pull up (turn basically) from a dive.

Nature designs.  Engineers design.  Both design to achieve excellence .. the former to increase the probability of the survival of the individual and the species -- the latter to increase the probability of survival in combat.

Off to work. 

[spuwho]

Agreed on the F-104. Known by some as simply a flying engine. It was designed to be a "pilots plane" it instead had so many demands of its pilots that it had alot of operational issues that carried throughout its life. (Which didnt end until 2004 in Italy BTW)

It was an F-104 that was made famous in the movie the "Right Stuff" when Chuck Yeager reached a record altitude and prompty stalled it and went into a spin. He barely survived the ejection.

As far as this new Chinese plane being a blatant ripoff of the F-35, other than having 2 engines, it does carry many of the same design characteristics. The noted exception is the use of 2 engines instead of one.

Its a know fact that spy photos of the new MIG-25 freaked out US defense planners to such a degree, the result was the F-15 Eagle. Many design characteristics of the F-15 are similar to the MIG-25. The MIG-25 was designed to help intercept one plane. The CIA A-12/USAF SR-71.

So the art of copying in weapons is as old as the Assyrians copying the Egyptians.

[ronchamblin]

Good points.  Of course, copying has always existed, as it saves the "copier" time, money, and effort to achieve the best design.  I suppose I could illustrate my point better by simply saying that even without any copying of aircraft designs between nations, the designs of each nation would evolve eventually toward the same ultimately "best" configuration -- as exemplified by the three top fighter aircraft in the current Russian, U. S. and Chinese forces.  The narrowing down to one ultimate design, via the three nations, would occur as long at the flying environment and the aircraft's purpose remains identical.   

The same process of evolving to the best design for survival might be illustrated by the human species.  For those who suggest that the human represents the ultimate in design for the animal kingdom, at least for intelligence and the ability to build things, one can imagine a test for the idea.  For example, if there is another planet in existence almost identical to the earth, and of similar distance from its sun -- how likely is it that on this planet would evolve a creature very similar to the human -- that is, once an "origin of life" process had been started by one of the gods imagined by aliens, as has been the case with the human imagination?   

[ronchamblin]

To think a little further on this evolution thing .... Certainly their can be no advantage for humans to have more than two arms, nor to having more than two legs.  But it is very advantageous for the human to have two legs and two arms.  Thus, the human has two arms and two legs as a consequence of the mechanisms of evolution.  Certainly there can be no advantage for the human male to have more than one penis.  Well ... on second thought .... let me think further on this.  In any case ...  if two of these things had evolved at some point, to the obvious satisfaction of many humans, where would the mechanism of evolution have placed sword number two?

[spuwho]

Here is a video of the new FC-31 Stealth Fighter demo

https://www.youtube.com/v/NLQEtRxflEU

Here is a dramatization of Chuck Yeager and the F-104 Starfighter.

https://www.youtube.com/v/1Cq7hf4ylvY

[Ocklawaha]

The MIG-25 was a primitive freaking plane. It was a good looking (from a distance) riveted steel airframe wrapped around a actual rocket engine. The rivets were not even sanded smooth against the skin of the plane. It had a tendency of accelerating completely out of control and reaching astounding rocket speeds. This is why NATO was so worried over it... "some sort of new Soviet interceptor able to outrun anything in the sky..." When it accelerated out of control it either killed the pilot or he bailed, either way the plane was toast. It had vacuum tubes in its 'electronics.' It is the second fastest and second highest-flying military aircraft ever fielded after the SR-71 reconnaissance aircraft. For pure speed, with no payload, test pilot Mikhail M. Komarov averaged 2,981.5 km/h over a 500 km closed circuit on 5 October 1967. A. Fedotov reached 35,230m with 1,000 kg payload, and 36,240 m with no load (an absolute world record). It could easily attain the fasted speed, fasted rate of climb and highest altitude of any contemporary aircraft...then it would flame out and 'coast' on inertia. Pushing it's limits, the MIG 25 FOXBAT had a 30-60 max flight time as it sucked enormous amounts of fuel. A Russian defector flew out of his patrol formation and dropped to near sea level and rocketed across the Sea of Japan, as he approached what he took for a military runway (it was a commercial international airport) a very sexy voice surprised him saying "Hello comrade, you now have fuel for 20 seconds of flight!" He later said in his book, 'MIG Pilot,' that the weapons system was radar guided but not so hot. Once in a 'political talk' another comrade had a slide show of the new American Jets, explaining their capabilities... He said he broke in and "SHIT! One American jet could take down our whole squadron before we even know they are in the air!" The political officer answered; "True comrade, therefor we must be better pilots then the Americans." FUNNY! On watching a US Carrier send up and receive aircraft (as a vip guest of the US Navy) he turned to the Admiral and said; "Hell if we tried that in Russia, we'd destroy our entire air force!"

[ronchamblin]

It seems that most Russian stuff is crudely built, large, and without sophisticated fire control as compared to the U. S.  I looked at a couple of derelict fighters on an airfield south of St. Petersburg when I visited Russia to buy a wife.  Having built an all metal aircraft myself, I wasn't too impressed with the finish work.  All of my skin rivets were countersunk, making a smooth surface.  The Russian aircraft had the round rivet heads protruding into the air. Of course, with all the power available on the huge engines pushing the Russian craft, I suspect that the protruding rivet heads had very little negative impact.  It seems to me however, that I've seen both countersunk and round head rivets on the skin of American aircraft. 

The Mig-25 of course, has two turbojets instead of rockets. 

But .... regarding the tendency for the M-25 to lose control ... look for a possible cause in the relatively small empennage, especially the very small horizontal stabilizers.  Notice how the modern jets have increased the area of the horizontals, "and" they've placed them further to the rear for greater control impact.  But ... there are many factors in aircraft design ... only very few of which I might claim a little familiarity.   

[I-10east]

It's all about UAVs (unmanned aerial vehicles, AKA drones) now. Fighter jets for combat is passe. 

[Ocklawaha]

Ron, I used the term 'rocket engine' (actually 2 of them) as this is what LT. Viktor Belenko, called them. Lieutenant Belenko was a pilot with the 513th Fighter Regiment, 11th Air Army, Soviet Air Defence Forces based in Chuguyevka, Primorsky Krai.

The R-15-300 was designed at OKB-300 design bureau led by Sergei Tumansky in the late 1950s. The engine was originally designed to be used in the Tupolev Tu-121 high-altitude high-speed cruise missile. Due to lacking Soviet resources and funding the engine casing was mainly steel, and in areas exposed to high levels of heat, 30 micrometre silver-plated steel.

[ronchamblin]

I thought that might have been the case regarding the term rocket Ock.  I'm amazed occasionally as to what the Russians can do with sheer size.  Look at their huge transport aircraft .... dwarfing everyone else's.  They "must" have the biggest in most things they attempt, even if they can't always have the best.  Look at their rocket engines used on space projects ... and their jet engines of the fifties and sixties always dwarfed ours.  Thank goodness we've partnered with the Russians on various space projects.  Doing so, keeps the door open for further communication and cooperation. 

I hope we don't draw them into another arms race ... ultimately fruitless, and destructive to the wellbeing of the long-time suffering average Russian.  For every billion rubles spent for military machines, the average Russian must wait a year to two before engaging a better standard of living.

The Russians often amaze me.  They suffered as peasants during and prior to the Russian Revolution.  They suffered during the seventy years of the dictatorial so-called communist era ... not to mention the suffering in the great patriotic war against the Germans.  And now, after the Soviet fall ... and after living with a short span of hope for a western style freedom ... they suffer the oligarchic rule as currently led by Mr. Putin ... set with its semi-chaos, little real opportunity, and huge inequalities of income and wealth distribution. 

I am so thankful that I was able to take a Russian woman out of Russia, and get her started on a life of relative freedom and prosperity, as compared to what she had in Russia.  She was living with her folks in Ekaterinburg (Sverdlovsk ... the oblast or county where Tsar Nicholas II and his family were shot in the early twenties), with her kid, in a very small apartment.  She is happy now, and still working at the Roosevelt bookstore ... although married to a former U. S. Navy pilot who is now in Saudi Arabia instructing pilot ground school.  Even though I sold her  , and lost a little on the investment, money isn't everything.  She is currently visiting her new American husband in Saudi for a couple of months.  And I am so happy for her.

But what does all this have to do with the new Chinese aircraft?    

The consequences of insomnia.  I must get something for sleep.

I am currently trying to determine the country from which my next wife will be purchased.  Actually ... I think I will simply find a local woman ... a much cheaper route ... who might not know that I am mentally ill.       

[civil42806]

Damn thing smokes more than an F-4.