The Jacksonville Landing: What Should It Be?

[fieldafm]

He could care less what downtown becomes - he doesn't live there, his office is in Southpoint, so he doesn't go there unless he has to.

Actually, you can find Tony at the Landing almost every day of the week...and most weekends.

I'll second that... and add that he also owns a very large condo at Berkman Plaza.

The Landing needs to have a conversation absent of one's pre-conceived notions about Toney Sleiman.

I can say for certain, that things like the trollies, pub crawls, fireworks shows, food truck events and even the Jaxsons Night Market that people have all enjoyed... wouldn't have happened without the financial support of Toney Sleiman.

[simms3]

I can say for certain, that things like the trollies, pub crawls, fireworks shows, food truck events and even the Jaxsons Night Market that people have all enjoyed... wouldn't have happened without the financial support of Toney Sleiman.

That's all good to hear.  I agree there is an undeserved antipathy towards Sleiman, the person, not necessarily Sleiman the Landing redeveloper.  I still contend that Sleiman, while giving it an honest shot, seems a little too politically charged to be the best guy to deal with the City (we need a negotiator, not a martyr/activist/someone who will back a social conservative based on those issues before a pragmatist who will work in the city's overall best interest rather than focusing on social stuff), and I contend that while he can develop a mean retail strip center (including in-house contract work and leasing), he's perhaps a little in over his skis on this deal and should find qualified help/partner up.

[Redbaron616]

Norfolk's Waterside, which was built along the same idea, is also struggling. The real problem is that all of these projects was developed with taxpayer dollars, one way or the other. There was either free land, parking, reduced taxes, etc. None of these projects was developed totally on a developer's dime. That should say enough right there. If a developer is not willing to risk all of his money into a project, that probably means it is not a long-term profitable solution. Beware of developers bearing gifts to city hall. They are after your wallet.

[thelakelander]

Norfolk pretty much killed Waterside when they turned around and invested $100 million in public funds for MacArthur Center in the late 1990s. Can't expect a festival marketplace like Waterside/Jax Landing to compete with MacArthur Center/Avenues Mall when the bigger mall is literally two blocks away. What Norfolk did is essentially what many people want to see happen with the Shipyards/JEA sites, at the expense of the Landing.

[downtownbrown]

Norfolk's Waterside, which was built along the same idea, is also struggling. The real problem is that all of these projects was developed with taxpayer dollars, one way or the other. There was either free land, parking, reduced taxes, etc. None of these projects was developed totally on a developer's dime. That should say enough right there. If a developer is not willing to risk all of his money into a project, that probably means it is not a long-term profitable solution. Beware of developers bearing gifts to city hall. They are after your wallet.

This is a very strong argument.  For developers to argue that they can't afford it without tax money means that their expected margins are very slim.  The slimmer the margin the riskier the investment.  Commerce works because there is a great product with ample demand.  Government can't create either of those.

[thelakelander]

^You'd be amazed that the amount of projects nationwide people assume are "market rate" that have included some form of subsidies to become reality. Heck, most of the stuff off JTB has been subsidized with public dollars at the expense of downtown and other areas of town. 

[Wacca Pilatka]

Norfolk pretty much killed Waterside when they turned around and invested $100 million in public funds for MacArthur Center in the late 1990s. Can't expect a festival marketplace like Waterside/Jax Landing to compete with MacArthur Center/Avenues Mall when the bigger mall is literally two blocks away. What Norfolk did is essentially what many people want to see happen with the Shipyards/JEA sites, at the expense of the Landing.

Waterside coexisted happily with MacArthur for a while, as it shifted its focus to being an entertainment venue (and really had not been that successful as a shopping venue pre-MacArthur anyway).  Almost all the retail died and so did the food court, but it had destination and other popular restaurants and bars into the mid-to-late 2000s: Have A Nice Day Café, Jillian's (equivalent to Dave and Buster's, more or less), Joe's Crab Shack, Outback, Hooters, a dueling piano bar, and the deliberately themeless Bar. 

Ultimately, it was a string of high-profile crime incidents (both by patrons within venues and among venue owners) that sucked the life out of Waterside.

[Ocklawaha]

The Landing needs to have a conversation absent of one's pre-conceived notions about Toney Sleiman.

I can say for certain, that things like the trollies, pub crawls, fireworks shows, food truck events and even the Jaxsons Night Market that people have all enjoyed... wouldn't have happened without the financial support of Toney Sleiman.

Agreed, however I've seen the pub crawls, firework shows, food truck events and the Jaxsons Night Market, but I've not seen the 'trollies' yet!  If I had, we'd be talking about how to slow down the expansion of the north bank.

[Noone]

The floating docks run parallel to the riverwalk in the rendering.  In the rendering, the docks are white and riverwalk is gray.

And have the conversation about 2014-305 New docking Rules and Penalties.

[Ocklawaha]

One thing should be a certainty. Install elevators that operate with a pass key for residents and/or second floor (assuming there is one) shop keepers, deliveries etc. This way in future the whole place doesn't smell like piss from drunks and daring fools pissing in the elevators. They should be replaced by the long ramp type escalators which are usable by everyone. These are common in world cities and things like loaded shopping carts lock in place when they are pushed onto the moving surface. Wheel chairs simply lock when entering the ramp. A rather long entry and exit area can be built to accommodate such.



Make the riverfront an amphitheater type space, don't get rid of the concerts, parties, festivals and shows which remain one of the strongest draws The Landing has.

Definitely do NOT get rid of the second floor balconies, for the reason above, in fact expand on that idea with restaurants having flat floors and doorways, and viewing spaces in between having some stadium type bench seating between the restaurant food court door-flat floor spaces. This also provides more shade space for those 100 degree days. The fountain should remain a kid space and perhaps be backed up on the riverfront with a holographic fountain such as the ones in Medellin, made by Georgia Fountains.

An attached Aqua Jax/Marineland aquarium would be a huge draw on the east end.

http://www.youtube.com/v/PrX5huMOUAY?version=3&hl=en_US
Here is an example of a Toronto 'Landing'.
An attached trolley barn/museum space on the west end would likewise be a huge draw. Tony, streetcars are SILENT and could be slipped in with a two car track from Hogan Street. This would tie The Landing to a Water Street or even a Waterfront line with a small green space near the river. Track could be buried in the lawn which is virtually invisible. Poles are 1920's decorative with banners and/or flowers. The single trolley wire is likewise nearly invisible. A 1980 study (which I still haven't found) suggested that properly advertised could attract upwards of 500,000 annual visitors and according to Kenosha Streetcar in WI those visitors are coming from all over the world just to experience a period American streetcar ride. Virtually the entire ridership of Tampa streetcar has been tourist based.

Now add the streetcar to the Aquarium with a Landing/Apartment complex in-between and you'd have a killer successful retail restaurant space with apartments. If your interested I can get you some renderings of this concept made, FREE.

[tpot]

Plans for Miami's version of The Landing begin next year.......details below...


The renovation and expansion of Bayside Marketplace on Miami's waterfront will be much more than a new coat of paint and new restrooms.

Pam Weller, senior general manager at Bayside, said the changes will be very exciting, and the first phase is set to begin next year.

"We've started the design work... a lot of the renovations will be in phases, the first being our food court," said Ms. Weller.

Construction will most likely commence in early 2015, she said, with an eight-month schedule for completion of that phase.

"We've already started getting permits from the city for a portion of that work. We're doing that now until January – pulling permits so we're ready to go," said Ms Weller.

It will mean a rebuild of the food court. The area will be "taken down to the interior walls and completely rebuilt," she said.

"It will have a whole new atmosphere, new wall finishes and decorative lights and flooring," she said. The new perks will also include "soft seating," with stylish couches and benches with cushions built into the design of the revamped food court.

New bathrooms are also on tap as part of Bayside's expansion, she said.

The 27-year-old retail, restaurant and entertainment complex is north of Bayfront Park, on about 17 acres of city-owned waterfront leased to Bayside Marketplace LLC.

Earlier this year new agreements were approved by city commissioners, and OK'd by voters in August, that extend the leases to 99 years and require the company to make at least $27 million to $35 million in renovations to the dual-level open-air market. The deal includes adding about 17,000 square feet of retail, expansion of the parking garages, and allows for construction of SkyRise Miami, a 1,000-foot observation tower.

Work on the tower, on less than 2 acres just north of the Hard Rock Café, continues in earnest as Bayside prepares for its reconstruction.

Hard Rock is a tenant of Bayside and considered a partner in the long success of the commercial venue, according to Ms. Weller.

Hard Rock has welcomed "all the hustle and bustle of building out the tower," she said, noting that much of the work is accomplished in the evening so as to limit disruption to Bayside's customers and tenants.

"We are working hard to make sure tenants are not disrupted," Ms. Weller said. This principle will also apply when reconstruction begins on Bayside itself, she said.

Since the August referendum, Bayside representatives have been meeting weekly with SkyRise Miami workers to coordinate activity at the site, she said.

The addition of SkyRise to the marketplace is "very, very exciting," she said.

Ms. Weller said Bayside is looking forward to the other phases of its renovation, particularly adding 17,000 square feet of retail facing west onto Biscayne Boulevard. Much of the current boomerang-shaped marketplace is oriented toward the water.

"We are looking for the perfect tenants to take that 17,000 square feet," she said. The new floor space is also in the design phase. The goal is to create a complete sidewalk-pedestrian atmosphere, affording more connectivity between Biscayne Boulevard and the waterfront.

Improvements to parking may be included in this phase.

"The parking garage element includes enlarging the height of the garage and adding on new spaces," she said. There is no timetable for that work yet.

Ms. Weller said Bayside attracts 22 million visitors a year.

"We are the number-one tourist destination in the city of Miami," she said, and as such Bayside is very sensitive to limiting the impact of the renovation work on the foot traffic.

"We don't want any of our work to inconvenience anyone," she said. Most of the renovation will be done in the evening and early morning.

"We're very aware of maintaining foot traffic and increasing it... it's near and dear to our hearts," she said.

Bayside Marketplace consists of 189 businesses, which include 140 inline spaces and several kiosks, flower carts, fishing charters, tour boats, etc.

New tenants include the flagship store of Fit2Run, in the south building facing Biscayne Bay.

Burger chain Five Guys is opening this week, in the north building across from Hooters.

Under construction is Bavarian Haus, a sit down restaurant-bar, on the second floor of the north building next to Chili's.

When 2015 rolls around, Bayside will be fully leased, said Ms. Weller.

Other general work is to include new flooring, painting, seating, "all the cosmetic things that will bring us into the 21st Century," she said.

Ms. Weller said the changes at Bayside won't happen overnight but she's eager to make the improvements.

"It's an exciting time, not just with the tower coming but with the shopping center doing as well as it's doing," Ms. Weller said. "We're really excited

[downtownbrown]

Make sense to me that nothing much will be done to the Landing until Healthy Town, or whatever it's going to be called, starts creating a real buzz with real construction and pre-sales.  That will surely motivate restauranteurs and retail to re-look at the North Bank.  In the end, the Core will be revitalized when private capital chooses to do it, not when politicians will it.

[thelakelander]

Assuming it even gets off the ground, don't count on Healthy Town having a significant impact on the Landing. That proposal calls for it having more retail/dining than Sleiman's proposed redevelopment.

[I-10east]

The Landing is an entirely different animal during big events like FL/GA weekend.

http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/blog/2014/11/sights-and-sounds-from-the-2014georgia-florida.html

[thelakelander]

Jacksonville should think real hard about what it wants the Landing to be.  I'm not sure that type of scene is compatible with the last proposed design showed.