Chinese fighter intercepts Navy Poseidon

[spuwho]

And that is where we will disagree.

Spratlys are not the Netherlands. Not even a close compare.

Sure, you don't think so. I know that.

But if one (say a Chinese citizen, for example) were to consider the Spratlys to lie within Chinese territorial waters, then the analogy is sound. You think there is no comparison because you reject Chinese claims to those waters out of hand. But, in the eyes of a Chinese person, the activities of the Chinese state are completely normal and legal. To them, it's no different than if the US were to start reclaiming land around the Hawaiian islands.

You seem to enjoy assigning behaviors and thoughts to me.

If the PRC wants to make a claim, they should do so in a peaceful manner in cooperation with the surrounding nations.

Why did it take over 60 years for the PRC to suddenly discover their lost need to reclaim sovereignty over an area that has only the influence of some fishermen?

The PLAN could have tried any action they wanted shortly after they detonated their first nuke in 1956. But they didnt, so even if in their eyes they think they own it, they havent supported it with their acts until now.

So that clearly has undermined their position regardless of how they feel about it historically.

[BridgeTroll]

If only we were Chinese the proper perspective would become perfectly clear.  Damn... If only.  Hey Adam... are you Chinese?

[Adam White]

If only we were Chinese the proper perspective would become perfectly clear.  Damn... If only.  Hey Adam... are you Chinese?

No, I'm American. And if you want to get picky, I'm an Irish national. I've never been to China, don't have a drop of Chinese (or any kind of Asian) blood in me. I've never dated a Chinese girl. I don't even really care for Chinese food all that much (aside from a few dishes).

And once again, you're being obtuse on purpose. I didn't say the Chinese perspective was proper. I'm trying to point out that there are many ways to look at this. But you Team America guys just assume the China = Bad posture. But I really shouldn't be surprised by that.

[BridgeTroll]

If only we were Chinese the proper perspective would become perfectly clear.  Damn... If only.  Hey Adam... are you Chinese?

No, I'm American. And if you want to get picky, I'm an Irish national. I've never been to China, don't have a drop of Chinese (or any kind of Asian) blood in me. I've never dated a Chinese girl. I don't even really care for Chinese food all that much (aside from a few dishes).

And once again, you're being obtuse on purpose. I didn't say the Chinese perspective was proper. I'm trying to point out that there are many ways to look at this. But you Team America guys just assume the China = Bad posture. But I really shouldn't be surprised by that.

lol... obtuse on purpose??  Some might consider making brilliantly obvious statements like "there are many ways to look at this" is purposely obtuse also.  Some might even consider your assumption that "Team America" people reflexively are anti China or are unable to read articles from the "many points of view" and form their own non automatic opinion...  But I would never consider you to be purposely obtuse Adam.  I apologize for assuming you were possibly chinese...

[Adam White]

If only we were Chinese the proper perspective would become perfectly clear.  Damn... If only.  Hey Adam... are you Chinese?

No, I'm American. And if you want to get picky, I'm an Irish national. I've never been to China, don't have a drop of Chinese (or any kind of Asian) blood in me. I've never dated a Chinese girl. I don't even really care for Chinese food all that much (aside from a few dishes).

And once again, you're being obtuse on purpose. I didn't say the Chinese perspective was proper. I'm trying to point out that there are many ways to look at this. But you Team America guys just assume the China = Bad posture. But I really shouldn't be surprised by that.

lol... obtuse on purpose??  Some might consider making brilliantly obvious statements like "there are many ways to look at this" is purposely obtuse also.  Some might even consider your assumption that "Team America" people reflexively are anti China or are unable to read articles from the "many points of view" and form their own non automatic opinion...  But I would never consider you to be purposely obtuse Adam.  I apologize for assuming you were possibly chinese...

Apology accepted, though I don't view being considered possibly Chinese as an insult

[finehoe]

[BridgeTroll]

The two china's seem a bit greedy dont you think?

[spuwho]

Gets even more interesting every day:

Taiwan Asserts Island Claim in Philippines's South China Sea Hague Case

A private group in Taiwan has filed to intervene in a case at the Permanent Court of Arbitration at The Hague, asserting that at least one territory in the South China Sea belongs to neither the Philippines nor China, but to the "Republic of China," Taiwan.

The Chinese (Taiwan) Society of International Law has filed an intervening submission, asserting they have a solid argument that Itu Aba, part of the Spratly Islands, does not belong to any of the parties to the case at the Hague, but it is rightfully an island of Taiwan.

The court has accepted the submission and is reviewing the claim, which asserts not only that the territory belongs to Taiwan, but that Itu Aba is legally an island with the right to an exclusive economic zone (EEZ) within it maritime borders. The Philippines is arguing that Itu Aba is a "rock" and therefore not entitled to such privileges in the South China Sea. Vietnam also claims Itu Aba as its own.

The Chinese government claims most of the South China Sea, including the Spratly and Paracel Islands. The territory China has unilaterally taken over includes areas within the borders of the Philippines, Vietnam, Taiwan, Brunei, and Malaysia, and borders Natuna Island, an Indonesian territory. Among the contested areas of the Spratlys are Fiery Cross Reef and Johnson South Reef, home to a number of new Chinese constructions its neighbors say are illegal.

China does not consider Taiwan a sovereign nation and considers all territory belonging to Taiwan to be under the control of Beijing. Some fear that the Hague court asserting Itu Aba is an island will be used by China to claim its rights over the region. "If even one of the Spratlys is found to be an island entitled to a 200 mile EEZ, China will be able to plausibly claim that it owns that feature and the 200 mile entitlement that comes with it, a claim that, while not as large as the nine-dash line, would still be quite substantial," the magazine The Diplomat asserts.

To do so, however, China would have to acknowledge the Hague case at all, which it has refused to do. The Chinese Foreign Ministry has asserted that it will ignore any verdict out of the Permanent Court of Arbitration, even a favorable one. Its continued construction of artificial islands on reefs in the region — and military complexes on the artificial islands — stands as a testament to their refusal to acknowledge the case.

The Chinese Foreign Ministry did give Reuters a statement on Taiwan's submission to the court, however, offering some veiled support for the move. "Chinese people on both sides of the Taiwan Strait all have a responsibility to jointly protect the ancestral property of the Chinese people," the statement read, once again acknowledging Taiwan only as a province of China.

It has made similar supportive moves towards Taiwan on this issue, while ignoring that Taiwan is seeking to control its part of the Spratly Islands for Taipei and not Beijing. In January, President Ma Ying-jeou visited Itu Aba to bring attention to its status as a rightful island internationally, not a rock or other formation not eligible for an EEZ. "Many of his policies don't live up to the expectations of the Chinese mainland, but his unwavering stance on the South China Sea regardless of Washington's pressurizing is worth praise," Chinese state-run Global Times said of the excursion. The government of the United States called the visit "very unhelpful."

Taiwanese President-elect Tsai Ing-wen turned down a chance to visit with Ma, a sign that she is not interested in behavior that may be used by Beijing to bolster its claims in the region. The Global Times column made note of "Tsai's different stance on the issue," as well. Tsai will assume the office of the presidency on May 20.

In March, the Taiwanese government made a final international appeal to assert its claims by bringing a group of reporters to Itu Aba, showing them the facilities on the island as proof that it is a habitable territory. Taipei asserted that the presence of a local population, agriculture, and constructions should solidify its international legal status and allow it to be part of the debate over which nations control which territories in the region.

[spuwho]

And here is how Taiwan got involved, basically they took an island as a part of evicting the Japanese from Taiwan in WWII as they were using it as a sub base.  Can this get any more complicated? The sovereignty argument was actually worked out by the Nationalists, not the PLA.  But seeing that the PRC considers themselves the "sole" China, by extension they now believe they can execute on it.

Per Wikipedia:

China first asserted sovereignty in the modern sense to the South China Sea's island when it formally objected to France's efforts to incorporate Itu Aba and other islands and rocks into French Indochina during the 1884 – 1885 Sino-French war. The 1887 boundary convention signed between France and China places the Spratly and Paracel islands under Chinese rule.[citation needed] Chinese maps since then have consistently shown China's claims, first as a solid and then as a dotted line.

At first, France recognized Chinese sovereignty of Spratly and Paracel islands, in exchange for Chinese recognition of Vietnam as a French territory.[citation needed] In 1932, a year after the Japanese formally invaded northeast China (Manchuria), France formally claimed both the Paracel and Spratly Islands. China and Japan both protested. In 1933, France seized the Paracels and Spratlys, announced their annexation, formally included them in French Indochina, and built a couple of weather stations on them, but did not disturb the numerous Chinese fishermen it found there. In 1938 Japan took the islands from France, garrisoned them, and built a submarine base at Itu Aba (now Taiping / 太平) Island. In 1941, the Japanese Empire made the Paracel and Spratly islands part of Taiwan, then under its rule.

In 1945, in accordance with the Cairo and Potsdam Declarations and with American help, the armed forces of the Republic of China government at Nanjing accepted the surrender of the Japanese garrisons in Taiwan, including the Paracel and Spratly Islands. Nanjing then declared both archipelagoes to be part of Guangdong Province. The island was claimed by the French as part of French Indochina in 1887. They occupied it in 1932 to assert control, and in reaction to a 1932 protest by the Chinese of their sovereignty of the Paracels.[13] During World War II, it was invaded by Japan and converted to a submarine base.[14] It was administratively attached to the municipality of Takao (Kaohsiung) in the Japanese colony of Taiwan.

On 6 November 1946, the ROC government sent four warships to the South China Sea to secure islands within the region, commanded by Lin Zun and Yao Ruyu (姚汝鈺): ROCS Chung-Yeh (中業號), ROCS Yung-hsing (永興號), ROCS Tai-ping (太平號) and ROCS Chung-chien (中建號). The warships departed from Guangzhou and headed towards the Spratly and Paracel island groups. On 12 December the two ships led by Lin Zun, ROCS Tai-ping and ROCS Chung-Yeh, arrived at Taiping Island. In commemoration of the island being secured, the island was chosen to be named after the ROCS Tai-ping warship, and thus a stone stele reading "Taiping island" was erected on a breakwater tip southwest of the island.[6] The other three ships likewise had their names used: Woody Island (in the Paracels) was named Yongxing (Yung-hsing) Island (presently PRC-occupied), Triton Island (Paracels) was named Zhongjian (Chung-chien) Island (presently PRC-occupied), and Thitu Island (Spratlys) was named Zhongye (Chung-Yeh) Island (presently Philippines-occupied).

[finehoe]

Chinese jets intercept U.S. recon plane, almost colliding over South China Sea

Two Chinese tactical fighters intercepted a U.S. Navy reconnaissance aircraft over the South China Sea earlier this week, a Pentagon spokeswoman announced Wednesday.

The U.S.EP-3E Aries, a propeller driven aircraft capable of intercepting radio communications, was flying in international airspace Tuesday when it was approached by two Chinese J-11 jets. The Chinese aircraft came within roughly 50 feet of the U.S. plane and were so close that the U.S. EP-3E was forced to descend to avoid collision, according to a report from the Associated Press.

The Pentagon described the incident as "unsafe." In 2001, a U.S. EP-3 collided with a Chinese J-8, killing the pilot and forcing the American plane to make an emergency landing in China.

"Over the past year, [the Pentagon] has seen improvements in [Chinese] actions, flying in a safe and professional manner," Baldanza said in a written statement.

Earlier this month, Chinese jets and warships scrambled to intercept a U.S. destroyer that sailed within 12 miles of a disputed island in the South China Sea. The island, known as Fiery Cross Reef and situated in the Spratly Island Chain, was once a cluster of rocks before being turned into a fully functional military base complete with a port and runway by the Chinese.

The small island has been claimed by China, Taiwan, Vietnam and the Philippines and is emblematic of the current struggle between countries attempting to secure portions of the resource-rich waters of the South China Sea.

While the United States has maintained its distance in the territorial disputes, the Pentagon has consistently said it will not be deterred by China's militarization of the region.

"The United States will fly, sail, and operate wherever international law allows," Cmdr. Bill Urban, a Pentagon spokesman, said earlier this month. "That is [as] true in the South China Sea as in other places around the globe."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/checkpoint/wp/2016/05/18/chinese-jets-intercept-u-s-recon-plane-almost-colliding-over-south-china-sea

[BridgeTroll]

The ONLY reason for this plane...


To fly within 50 feet of this plane...

Is to intimidate and imply aggression...

[finehoe]

Gets even more interesting every day

The New 'X Factor' in South China Sea Crisis: Rodrigo Duterte

Rodrigo Duterte's victory in the Philippines' Presidential elections has introduced new uncertainty into Asia's security outlook.

The populist strongman from Davao, which is the largest city in Mindanao, is nicknamed 'The Punisher' and 'Duterte Harry' for his alleged involvement in extrajudicial killings of around 1,000 criminals in that city during the late 1990s. Duterte secured 38.49% of the presidential vote, ahead of 23.46% and 21.66% for his rivals Manuel Roxas and Grace Poe, respectively.

Duterte's foreign policy rhetoric suggests that under his Presidency, the Philippines could suddenly shift its position on the South China Sea crisis in a manner that would generate uncertainty, and  weaken ASEAN's ability to develop a common position against an assertive China. The Philippines will be the chair of ASEAN in 2017, and so Duterte's position on the growing crisis in the South China Sea really matters. The problem is that his rhetoric is confused—on one hand he suggests a willingness to engage China bilaterally over the crisis in exchange for Chinese economic investment, on the other he proposes a multilateral roundtable discussion that China would oppose. And then there is loose talk of confronting China at Scarborough Shoal on a jet ski—the maritime equivalent of a shirtfront!

The shifting policy position of the President-elect is likely to reinforce the risk of miscalculation on both sides of the dispute and generate further provocations. The Permanent Court of Arbitration (PCA) in The Hague is currently assessing a crucial legal case presented by the Philippines against China on the issue of disputed territories in the South China Sea. Its finding is likely to be handed down in June, and could favor the Philippines. China is vowing that it will ignore the PCA's finding, and in doing so, weaken legal norms such as UNCLOS. Duterte has indicated he's not a strong supporter of international legal solutions to disputes stating: 'I have a similar position as China's. I don't believe in solving the conflict through an international tribunal'. His stance could embolden China to be more assertive. Under Duterte, the dynamics of this crisis look set to change in China's favor.

http://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/the-new-x-factor-south-china-sea-crisis-rodrigo-duterte-16166

[spuwho]

Gets even more interesting every day

The New 'X Factor' in South China Sea Crisis: Rodrigo Duterte

Rodrigo Duterte's victory in the Philippines' Presidential elections has introduced new uncertainty into Asia's security outlook.

The populist strongman from Davao, which is the largest city in Mindanao, is nicknamed 'The Punisher' and 'Duterte Harry' for his alleged involvement in extrajudicial killings of around 1,000 criminals in that city during the late 1990s. Duterte secured 38.49% of the presidential vote, ahead of 23.46% and 21.66% for his rivals Manuel Roxas and Grace Poe, respectively.

Duterte's foreign policy rhetoric suggests that under his Presidency, the Philippines could suddenly shift its position on the South China Sea crisis in a manner that would generate uncertainty, and  weaken ASEAN's ability to develop a common position against an assertive China. The Philippines will be the chair of ASEAN in 2017, and so Duterte's position on the growing crisis in the South China Sea really matters. The problem is that his rhetoric is confused—on one hand he suggests a willingness to engage China bilaterally over the crisis in exchange for Chinese economic investment, on the other he proposes a multilateral roundtable discussion that China would oppose. And then there is loose talk of confronting China at Scarborough Shoal on a jet ski—the maritime equivalent of a shirtfront!

The shifting policy position of the President-elect is likely to reinforce the risk of miscalculation on both sides of the dispute and generate further provocations. The Permanent Court of Arbitration (PCA) in The Hague is currently assessing a crucial legal case presented by the Philippines against China on the issue of disputed territories in the South China Sea. Its finding is likely to be handed down in June, and could favor the Philippines. China is vowing that it will ignore the PCA's finding, and in doing so, weaken legal norms such as UNCLOS. Duterte has indicated he's not a strong supporter of international legal solutions to disputes stating: 'I have a similar position as China's. I don't believe in solving the conflict through an international tribunal'. His stance could embolden China to be more assertive. Under Duterte, the dynamics of this crisis look set to change in China's favor.

http://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/the-new-x-factor-south-china-sea-crisis-rodrigo-duterte-16166

The Filipino Donald Trump?

[finehoe]

The Filipino Donald Trump?

That's what they call him...

https://www.google.com/search?q=Filipino+Donald+Trump&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8

[finehoe]

U.S. 'hypocrisy' and Chinese cash strengthen Beijing's hand in South China Sea

The latest was Kenya. Before that: Lesotho, Vanuatu and Afghanistan.

The list of countries backing Beijing's stance in the South China Sea just keeps growing — China's Foreign Ministry boasted last week that nearly 60 had swung behind the country's rejection of international arbitration in a case brought by the Philippines.

The numbers are questionable, and the idea of gaining the support of distant, landlocked Niger in a dispute about the South China Sea could seem faintly ludicrous.

Yet China's frantic efforts to rally support ahead of a ruling from an international tribunal in The Hague may not be as meaningless as they might seem. Cold, hard Chinese cash and what many see as American double standards are undermining efforts to build a unified global response to Beijing's land reclamation activities in the disputed waters and employ international law to help resolve the issue.

The lure of Chinese money is having an impact in the Philippines, where President-elect Rodrigo Duterte has made wildly contradictory comments on the issue but has suggested some openness to bilateral negotiations — if China builds railways there.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/us-hypocrisy-and-chinese-cash-strengthen-beijings-hand-in-south-china-sea/2016/06/18/6907943a-330a-11e6-ab9d-1da2b0f24f93_story.html