2013 Metropolitan Area Census Estimates Released

[tufsu1]

Part of the reason is because nobody looks at CSAs.  When a retailer comes into DC, they aren't looking at DC + Baltimore for statistical information or shopping habits.  They are looking at DC MSA.

maybe if they are locating in DC or NoVa....but what if they are locating in Columbia...in that case they care about Baltimore and Washington

[jaxjags]

Lakelander - Miami got "bigger" this time, as at one time West Palm Beach was its own area. I noticed this also. They combined WPB and Miami, but having relatives and friends in the WPB/Lake Worth/ Bocca Raton area they do not consider themselves part of Miami. Atlanta, where I have lived, is actually more of a single Metro area. WPB is to Miami what Brunswick and Savannah are to JAX.

[Scrub Palmetto]

Part of the reason is because nobody looks at CSAs.  When a retailer comes into DC, they aren't looking at DC + Baltimore for statistical information or shopping habits.  They are looking at DC MSA.

Anyway, why are you so concerned I've questioned why some CSAs, which were previously MSAs, are now split up MSAs and considered CSAs when combined?  Lots of people share my thoughts and feelings, which is why definitions for these things change and are up for constant debate.

I question why you just take everything handed to you without questioning the data itself or the reasoning behind the data or definition.

CSAs are the loosest form of definition for metropolitan areas.  Many would say lots of CSAs make sense as CSAs, and others would question other CSAs and why they include what they include.  Boston's includes half of New Hampshire down to Providence over to Western Mass.  Yet, like San Francisco's, its MSA is quite small by geographical standards.  Many would argue that both Boston's and SF's CSAs are a little too large while their MSAs are simply too small, based on fairly concrete concepts and statistics.  Often times an MSA is overly large.  Atlanta's includes nearly 30 counties...all because the farthest outlying county has a certain percentage of residents commuting one county closer to Atlanta, even though the next county in is still 1-2-3 counties outside of the core Atlanta area.  The CSA is half of the state of GA.

Palm Coast goes to Orlando's CSA because of commuting patterns to Daytona Beach/Volusia County.  Would you say Palm Coast is far and away moreso a part of Orlando and Central FL than NE FL?  Philadelphia has this fight with NYC all the time about central NJ counties.

Long story short, I don't need to answer your question "clearly" because there is nothing clear and concrete about MSA and CSA statistics.

I apologize if my questions seemed emotionally charged. I asked them to clear up genuine confusion about your argument, not to express disagreement or some sort of counterargument. You've read stuff between the lines that isn't there.

You answered in your first 3 sentences above, with the "part of the reason is [...]," and I thank you for that. I do wonder what the other part is, but I won't push it.

I wish I could stop here, but I have to address the wild assumptions that followed that I don't think I deserve. At no point have I indicated that I "take everything handed to [me] without questioning the data itself or the reasoning behind the data or definition," and nothing could be further from the truth. Where did that come from? For a start, I am fully aware of the reasoning behind and controversy over Census Bureau classification. I've been analyzing Census data since the '90s, and it's quite a large part of my interests and field of study. If you have to make assumptions, perhaps it's wiser to assume there is more than one expert in the room than the alternative, yes?

Anyway, I'll answer your questions since you indulged mine, even though yours may be rhetorical.

1) I wouldn't call it concern, just confusion, as I said. 2) No, I don't consider Palm Coast part of Orlando or Central Florida. Odd groupings abound in MSA or CSA classification, in part from the large-scale, arbitrary geographies (counties.) Personally I'm an advocate of expanding the popularity and application of urbanized area classification or similar alternatives using smaller-scale geographies. But even setting aside the popularilty of MSAs and CSAs, they're still very useful for tracking changes over time, like in this article. They're less useful for determining where one city's suburbs end and another's begin, but that's the reality of our sprawled nation, and it wouldn't be solved by going back to the classification of previous decades. The criteria as-is is still a legacy from times when metro areas fit more neatly within the geographies used (counties) with more elbow room between. There is no perfect criteria for this sort of thing -- counties are used out of convenience, so that will have its downsides. I think the Census Bureau does about as good as we can expect, but I do not treat is as a bible.

[Scrub Palmetto]

Two smaller southern metros to keep an eye out on are Charleston and Fort Myers. Both continue to grow at pretty healthy rates.

Healthy rates, but in unhealthy ways!

[thelakelander]

Lakelander - Miami got "bigger" this time, as at one time West Palm Beach was its own area. I noticed this also. They combined WPB and Miami, but having relatives and friends in the WPB/Lake Worth/ Bocca Raton area they do not consider themselves part of Miami. Atlanta, where I have lived, is actually more of a single Metro area. WPB is to Miami what Brunswick and Savannah are to JAX.

WPB and Miami have been considered the same MSA for a while now. The tie between WPB and Miami is most likely Broward County. For example, my brother lives in DT Fort Lauderdale but works in Boca Raton (roughly 15 miles or so away) which is in Palm County.  His house is about 15 miles from Aventura, which is in Miami-Dade County. Furthermore, DT Fort Lauderdale is roughly the same distance from DT Miami as Sandy Springs is from Hartfield Airport.  When one thinks about commuting patterns in that metro, it's not such a stretch that they are considered to be a single MSA.

[thelakelander]

Personally I'm an advocate of expanding the popularity and application of urbanized area classification or similar alternatives using smaller-scale geographies. But even setting aside the popularilty of MSAs and CSAs, they're still very useful for tracking changes over time, like in this article. They're less useful for determining where one city's suburbs end and another's begin, but that's the reality of our sprawled nation, and it wouldn't be solved by going back to the classification of previous decades.

Compared to MSAs and CSAs, the urbanized area classification is about as apples to apples as it gets.

[JaxJersey-licious]

I just love looking at these demo figures because of Richard Florida's book The Rise Of The Creative Class basically saying the new economy would thrive in locales that were tech-savvy, gay-friendly, racially diverse, encourages the arts, well-educated, and "bohemian".  I was always curious to see if his theories on cities and states attracting those kinds of people would work out. Well some 12 years and one big recession later, I was now able too pull up numbers for the top 100 fastest growing counties from 2010-2013 to get an idea where people were flocking to and why.

Most of the growth areas can be divided into three primary categories: 1)  Suburban sprawl-opolises with affordable and plentiful land (with lower taxes and less regulation) serving major workplace centers - like St Johns County which, by the way, ranks 23rd in growth this decade in the nation 2) High-density urban cores and infill neighborhoods with numerous entertainment/lifestyle options that are also centers for tech, finance, communications, and government 3) Places that have tons of oil, natural gas, and mining resources and/or companies that service those sectors. Given that Mr. Florida's book did not foresee our current energy grab-fest and the fact that a lot of jobs and people have been going to states which are safe to say not so enlightened, many have said that his theories were a bust. But that oversimplifies things. Places like Nashville, Raleigh-Durham, Austin, and Charleston benefit from their state's low taxes, de-regulation mantra, weakened-unions, cheaper labor, and old-timey over-protective mindset. These same places also have incredible music/arts/nightlife scenes, diverse populations, a very educated and technical workforce with the institutions to prepare them, and a passion for improving and preserving their historic older neighborhoods.   

We can debate aspects of Mr. Florida's economic and social vision but ultimately we need to ask what direction Jacksonville will be taking now and in the future. We've been firmly entrenched in sprawl path #1 to growth but I'm sure most MJ fans have other ideas in mind and agree that even if it doesn't directly or indirectly lead to more prosperity, it would benefit Jacksonville as a whole. That said, we need to ask ourselves one of two questions: Are we doing enough as a city to invest in education, encourage innovation, foster and strengthen our communities, cultivate cultural heritage and modernity, embrace and partake in other cultures, guarantee and protect equal rights for all so that we will ultimately attract like-minded people to visit, live, and invest in Jacksonville?

Or is there a secret shit-load of oil shale and molybdenum floating around the city's aquifers waiting for Halliburton to get a crack at extracting 'em? The choice is yours, Jax!

[krazeeboi]

Regarding I-10 East's comment about Raleigh nipping at Jacksonville's heels, Raleigh should really be Raleigh + Durham, and has had a larger population than Jax for a couple decades now.  In some respects, Jax does feel larger, though, because as low density as Jax is, Raleigh is even lower.  Pine forests up until the edge of downtown...Greensboro/High Point should really be a part of Winston Salem.

I can agree with Raleigh and Durham being one MSA; I think an oddity of geography is somewhat to blame for that, namely the orientation of RTP (the singular point that binds both areas) to Durham County and Wake County and how that affects commuting patterns. But I think Greensboro/High Point and Winston-Salem being two MSAs and one CSA is somewhat justified. Each city is pretty independent but just happen to be located close to each other. They don't share one large central employment center a la RTP and commuting rates between the two are significant but not really that strong. Also, I think it's to Winston-Salem's benefit that it has its own MSA. It's actually the oldest and wealthiest city in the area, and also has the largest urbanized population. The current designation doesn't make it seem like it plays second-fiddle to Greensboro when in many cases, the opposite is true.