Food Trucks To Be Legislated Out of Existence?

[ronchamblin]

Thanks for feedback Lake and BT.  There are times, as one seeks solutions, to think through possible and probable dynamics ... without having a history of evidence to support decisions.  Similar to the scientific method?  Nobody had complete evidence that the atomic bomb would actually work on the first try.

I'm simply saying that we should consider the consequences of what we are actually doing,  when we promote food trucks into the city core.  I suggest that we hold them off for now, and make decisions that not only avoid weakening what we have, but will move the core to further real strength. 

We should avoid the candy in the core for now, which food trucks represent, and seek good nourishment via creative innovations which actually result in fundamental infrastructural improvements.  We must prepare the city core for brick and mortar entries ... we must encourage and facilitate brick and mortar start-ups, and not encourage a false sense of real progress via temporary food trucks, which will only create an environment hostile to existing restaurants, and to potential start-ups.  Yes.... invite the food trucks when the time is right ....  after genuine vibrancy is achieved.  To invite them into the core now, is similar to the shallow thinking of a child who doesn't have the patience or experience to see the full consequences of otherwise desirable behavior, such as eating candy and chocolate all day long.   

[BoldBoyOfTheSouth]

I'm think of attending this meeting at City Hall @ 10:30

Anybody else able to attend?

[ronchamblin]

I'm think of attending this meeting at City Hall @ 10:30

Anybody else able to attend?

Good.  I presume I've an ally .... that you've been convinced by valid argument.

[Intuition Ale Works]

I'm think of attending this meeting at City Hall @ 10:30

Anybody else able to attend?

Meeting is at 3pm.

[strider]

The other side of Ron's argument is simply that as it is Downtown offers little to those who are indeed still working and living downtown to keep them from getting in a car at lunch and dinner time and driving out of Downtown. It seems to me that to make Downtown more attractive for new B&M places, we need to show foot traffic.  Food trucks can do that.  So, while I can understand the idea that food trucks could negatively impact a possible B&M restaurant, it seems much more likely to promote B&M businesses of other types that the increased foot traffic could use.  The special events bring into Downtown many who other wise would not go and then the existing B&M restaurants can not meet demand so then without food trucks, people will be less likely to come back.  If anything, people like Ron should be welcoming the food trucks and the special events for the increased foot traffic they bring. Every new customer of a food truck at lunch or at a special event is a potential future new customer of a B&M business.

Downtown is not the same nor has the same marketing needs as other areas.  If it did, if the same that worked on King Street would work Downtown, then we would not be having this discussion, Downtown would be more like King Street already.  If the status quo was going to work for Downtown, it would have already. Food trucks Downtown is a relatively new thing and it appears to be working on some level or no one would be trying to stop them.

Perhaps rather than fight this current ordinance, we should be writing our own amendment that takes some funding and creates permanent, nicely groomed places for the food trucks and then rents them out.  Maybe the parks downtown should have public facilities along side those permanent spots.  Federal dollars might be found for the creation of those facilities (based on the idea that they could be used by the homeless) with the rents from the food trucks maintaining them.  Perhaps also we could afford to put those tables and chairs back into Hemming Park.  (Maybe even with Federal funds as they could be used by the Homeless. ) Hey, if Paul Harden can write new ordinances, we should be able to as well.

[ronchamblin]

The other side of Ron's argument is simply that as it is Downtown offers little to those who are indeed still working and living downtown to keep them from getting in a car at lunch and dinner time and driving out of Downtown. It seems to me that to make Downtown more attractive for new B&M places, we need to show foot traffic.  Food trucks can do that.  So, while I can understand the idea that food trucks could negatively impact a possible B&M restaurant, it seems much more likely to promote B&M businesses of other types that the increased foot traffic could use.  The special events bring into Downtown many who other wise would not go and then the existing B&M restaurants can not meet demand so then without food trucks, people will be less likely to come back.  If anything, people like Ron should be welcoming the food trucks and the special events for the increased foot traffic they bring. Every new customer of a food truck at lunch or at a special event is a potential future new customer of a B&M business.

Downtown is not the same nor has the same marketing needs as other areas.  If it did, if the same that worked on King Street would work Downtown, then we would not be having this discussion, Downtown would be more like King Street already.  If the status quo was going to work for Downtown, it would have already. Food trucks Downtown is a relatively new thing and it appears to be working on some level or no one would be trying to stop them.

Perhaps rather than fight this current ordinance, we should be writing our own amendment that takes some funding and creates permanent, nicely groomed places for the food trucks and then rents them out.  Maybe the parks downtown should have public facilities along side those permanent spots.  Federal dollars might be found for the creation of those facilities (based on the idea that they could be used by the homeless) with the rents from the food trucks maintaining them.  Perhaps also we could afford to put those tables and chairs back into Hemming Park.  (Maybe even with Federal funds as they could be used by the Homeless. ) Hey, if Paul Harden can write new ordinances, we should be able to as well.

Interesting points.  I would like to stress your idea, which I agree with, that it is productive to have the food trucks during most special events, simply because the current number of brick and mortars might have trouble keeping up with demand.  Not meeting demand will, as you suggest, be a put off for visitors at the special events.  However, I continue to believe that everyday presence of food trucks in the core, would be ultimately counter productive to the effort to achieve progress toward full vibrancy and infill -- the dynamics of the opinion being in my earlier posts. 

[DeadGirlsDontDance]

quote]Like, which city 'stagnated' because of food trucks?

Bingo. Good luck coming up with one city that has economically stagnated because of food trucks? 

What businesses and parks (seriously, why can't a truck be anywhere near a park?) locally are suffering specifically because of food trucks? 

This whole thing is really silly but a great example of  why Jacksonville continues to struggle with downtown and urban core revitalization.
[/quote]

I looked. No cities seem to be collapsing in flames because people can buy and eat an organic Korean bbq taco right outside their office and still have time to do some shopping or run an errand or two before they have to be back at their desk.

Food trucks are a relatively new thing, so there's not a lot of economic impact studies available yet. This study in San Francisco suggests that the food trucks are luring away fast food customers at lunch time, not people who have time to go to a real  sit-down restaurant.

http://network.intuit.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/Intuit-Food-Trucks-Report.pdf

My take on the whole thing? This is crazy. I can't understand why anybody would want this legislation unless they own a restaurant with slow service, ridiculous prices or boring food. Why spend the time and money to properly train the staff or upgrade the menu when you can run the competition out of business for free?

[jaxjaguar]

I like Strider's idea of having a permanent spot for the food trucks... similar to what was done last year for One Spark (I think they called it food truck city?). Most of the bill seems too extreme though. Yes the food trucks need to be regulated and yes they can negatively impact b&m, but lets be practical.

1. Must have proper insurance.
2. Must be with-in designated areas (we have plenty of empty lots downtown)
3. Maybe this would be a good opportunity for a new (low) tax on the trucks to help fix up the facades on b&m's downtown? It would make the b&m businesses feel better about the trucks not paying rent, utilities, inspections, etc.
4. Must be "x" amount of yards from b&m (unless designated lot is closer or large event is happening)
5. Homeless program could be set up for cleaning up the designated lots in exchange for a meal
6. All fixtures must be properly fixed to the truck for safety reasons

[ronchamblin]

You make claims... and then provide no proof... examples include...

decisions like allowing food trucks into the core affect negatively our objectives to revitalize.

and

If food trucks continue to supply food for the permanent core workers, residents, and visitors .. on a permanent basis, there will be less demand for, and therefore incentive for, the opening of new restaurants in the core.

and

Food trucks not only have little positive impact on the city core in its struggle toward sustained vibrancy, they also give false indicators of real progress toward vibrancy.  They sap business from restaurants enduring the current poor economy and the low foot traffic in the core.

well yes.  other than cold making up fantastical conclusions that don't really correlate with a provable reality, the reasonins is rock solid.

quote]Like, which city 'stagnated' because of food trucks?

Bingo. Good luck coming up with one city that has economically stagnated because of food trucks? 

What businesses and parks (seriously, why can't a truck be anywhere near a park?) locally are suffering specifically because of food trucks? 

This whole thing is really silly but a great example of  why Jacksonville continues to struggle with downtown and urban core revitalization.

I looked. No cities seem to be collapsing in flames because people can buy and eat an organic Korean bbq taco right outside their office and still have time to do some shopping or run an errand or two before they have to be back at their desk.

Food trucks are a relatively new thing, so there's not a lot of economic impact studies available yet. This study in San Francisco suggests that the food trucks are luring away fast food customers at lunch time, not people who have time to go to a real  sit-down restaurant.

http://network.intuit.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/Intuit-Food-Trucks-Report.pdf

My take on the whole thing? This is crazy. I can't understand why anybody would want this legislation unless they own a restaurant with slow service, ridiculous prices or boring food. Why spend the time and money to properly train the staff or upgrade the menu when you can run the competition out of business for free?
[/quote]

I'm simply suggesting that certain proper and effective decisions require sometimes subtle analysis ..... thinking that is.... about ... and forgive me.... somewhat complex components affecting realities not apparent to the causal observer who perhaps is not used to problems having more than two components within it.  I suggest that allowing a high population of food trucks into the core on a daily basis at this time of core weakness and stagnation, will perpetuate that weakness and stagnation.  The dynamics in our core are unique.   To ask me to provide evidence of a core being stagnated by the presence of food trucks is oversimplification, and only shows one's failure to perceive the critical components of the problem.  Ultimately, progress toward infill and vibrancy in the core is the issue.  Food trucks, everyday in the core, while giving the illusion of activity and vibrancy, per the dynamics explained in my earlier posts, will impede progress toward the goal of vibrancy and infill.

[IrvAdams]

Similar to a mall, where similar stores gather to attract a group of people who choose where to spend their dollars, the concept of bringing in food trucks on top of existing b&m restaurants actually increases the overall traffic for everyone. In fact, several food trucks have opened their own brick and mortar locations. Ask those people if they think other food trucks are a restrictive competition, and I'll bet their opinions will be in favor of the competition and variety.

[jenio]

Your snarkiness Stephen is very unbecoming.

[fieldafm]

Food trucks not only have little positive impact on the city core in its struggle toward sustained vibrancy, they also give false indicators of real progress toward vibrancy.  They sap business from restaurants enduring the current poor economy and the low foot traffic in the core.

Sorry Ron, but it's really sad to hear that from someone who has actually experienced first hand the increased foot traffic and the resulting sales from people coming into your store that came downtown to eat at a food truck... people who had no other reason to come downtown other than visiting that food truck or attend a food truck rally.

That is very, very, very disheartening to hear.

We should probably suspend all special events in the core because they only hinder 'sustained vibrancy'.

Hopefully, next year OneSpark and Jazz Fest will be held at the Jacksonville Equestrian Center so that all those businesses downtown aren't bothered with temporarily having to suspend their quest for sustained vibrancy by actually having customers in their store.

[ben says]

Your snarkiness Stephen is very unbecoming.

[ronchamblin]

The points I attempt to convey are missed by some, and are opposed by some perhaps because of set habits of opposing most of what I say.

I see some value in having food trucks everyday in the core.  However, I also see the negative affects of the trucks which, if allowed in high number into the core on a daily basis, will be eventually shown to overcome the positives gained from having them.

This issue is an invitation for another poor decision, supported by those with limited vision ... by those failing to see the underlying negative consequences of having food trucks in the core on a daily basis.  Food trucks will provide a dynamic which will surely stabilize the downtown core in its current condition of empty buildings with no permanent population of workers and residents. 

The food trucks will however, provide fleeting visits from outsiders, much as occurs with Art Walk and One Spark. The difference is that the food trucks, by being present everyday, will ensure that survival is difficult for existing restaurants, and encourage potential entrepreneurs to open elsewhere.     

[thelakelander]

the dynamics in the core are not unique.  they are predictable and easily fixed, and the policies which hold it back have nothing to do with food trucks, which bring diversity and energy back into the downtown.

Frankly, it is this approach to downtown on the part of several of the merchants which has helped make it such a poisonous atmosphere in which to do business.

They say, there's nothing new under the sun. This applies to downtown Jacksonville as well. Historically, we've made things worse by doing all we can to block a historical urban environment from organically growing naturally.

It's sad that in the 21st century, we still fear more than two black guys getting together in a town square to play a game of chess or cards, a food truck parked in a surface parking lot attracting people to an area they'd otherwise avoid, and have the urge to demolish buildings simply for the crime of being vacant (when we're responsible for killing the market).

Jax has so much potential and is home to thousands of smart passionate people who would love enhanced opportunities to make their city a better place. All we really need to do is stop tripping over our own two feet by realizing that it's not 1960 anymore.