AAF NIMBY Group: Florida NOT All Aboard

[BridgeTroll]

Took Amtrak to WinterPark yesterday for the art festival... Drops you off right in the middle of the festival.  Looks like SunRail is nearly ready to go with shiny new and modern stations... right next to decrepit nasty Amshacks.  The train was 40 minutes late for return trip...sigh...

[southsider1015]

I just made a post in their discussion. Amtrak on the FEC probably isn't going to happen without AAF paying for much of the track infrastructure first. There's economic incentive even for Martin County because the project that will give them a rail station is piggybacking off of this one.  I think some of this is locals not being able to see the benefit of thinking and planning regionally.

Education would certainly go a long way in helping to prevent the NIMBY attitudes.  If boating interruptions is the biggest problem, I don't see this stopping AAF.  Frankly, they sound a bit ridiculous complaining about when they can take their yachts out, or that it'll kill the marina businesses.  Really, Martin County, really?

[tufsu1]

Martin County is pretty highly educated

[southsider1015]

Martin County is pretty highly educated

Right. Educated on NIMBY attittudes.  I worked on a construction project down there the past few years and heard some of the complaints.  Some people really had nothing better to do than rant and complain about it.  Yet in the end, everyone praised the project after it was built.  It just seemed liked their first instinct was "NO."  The second thought was "BUT...MY YACHT!".  The third thought was "OK BUT IM GOING TO MAKE THIS DIFFICULT".  And finally, "GEEZ, ITS ABOUT TIME YOU'RE DONE.  Oh, thanks for making my city better."

Someone else mentioned it.  Its the overall paranoia of turning into Miami or Ft Lauderdale.

[spuwho]

Probably the best option is for the FEC to post a tender and have the bridge cycle faster.

When FEC traffic was high back in the 50 and 60's, hardly anyone could afford boats large enough to be bothered.

FEC traffic declined over the years and people got used to it and marinas got built inside the tracks.

Now the traffic is coming back and the marinas are going to be subject to it and that makes people unhappy. They think of waterways like a personal road to drive on.

I think FEC and AAF want to be good citizens, but they were there first.  If the citizens want better ocean access they should consider paying for a new rail bridge to facilitate that or organize their exits more regularly. There are lots of stories across the country of people getting used to underused railroads and then getting riled when it is sold and put back into higher use.

[jupiter]

The reason people in Martin County and Northern Palm Beach County are so "uneducated" regarding All Aboard Florida, is because all efforts have been made to keep us from learning about this boondoggle until it is too late to stop it.  If you were educated about the situation you would know that we are upset about much more than just boat traffic. 

In Jupiter-Tequesta we have 7 railroad crossings and an ancient unmanned bridge trestle all within about 6 miles.  The plan is for the train to pass through at speeds of up to 110 mph.  There are roadways on both sides of the tracks along most of this length so at each cross street there is a traffic light.  These intersections are perfect locations for vehicles to get trapped on the tracks.  To help prevent vehicles being trapped the light cycles at each of these intersections have to have special cycles each time a train passes through.  Then because of the many turn lanes, it takes a couple of special cycles to get the traffic pattern flowing "normally" again.  32 additional crossings a day mostly during daylight hours is going to cause constant gridlock in our communities.   The local municipalities will also have to spend millions of their taxpayer money to upgrade and maintain all  of these crossings.

The noise from the trains (or the cost of setting up quiet zones) is also an issue as is the increased air pollution due to the constant gridlock.  The degradation in the quality of living in these towns will also decrease property values  (Hmmm where will that taxpayer money come from??)  All of this for what???  There is NO benefit for those living these towns or any towns north of West Palm Beach.   Hundreds of thousands of people will be inconvenienced, additionally taxed, and subject to additional noise and air pollution so that a few hundred (even if it is thousands) people a day can travel between Orlando and Miami.
 

[southsider1015]

The reason people in Martin County and Northern Palm Beach County are so "uneducated" regarding All Aboard Florida, is because all efforts have been made to keep us from learning about this boondoggle until it is too late to stop it.  If you were educated about the situation you would know that we are upset about much more than just boat traffic. 

In Jupiter-Tequesta we have 7 railroad crossings and an ancient unmanned bridge trestle all within about 6 miles.  The plan is for the train to pass through at speeds of up to 110 mph.  There are roadways on both sides of the tracks along most of this length so at each cross street there is a traffic light.  These intersections are perfect locations for vehicles to get trapped on the tracks.  To help prevent vehicles being trapped the light cycles at each of these intersections have to have special cycles each time a train passes through.  Then because of the many turn lanes, it takes a couple of special cycles to get the traffic pattern flowing "normally" again.  32 additional crossings a day mostly during daylight hours is going to cause constant gridlock in our communities.   The local municipalities will also have to spend millions of their taxpayer money to upgrade and maintain all  of these crossings.

The noise from the trains (or the cost of setting up quiet zones) is also an issue as is the increased air pollution due to the constant gridlock.  The degradation in the quality of living in these towns will also decrease property values  (Hmmm where will that taxpayer money come from??)  All of this for what???  There is NO benefit for those living these towns or any towns north of West Palm Beach.   Hundreds of thousands of people will be inconvenienced, additionally taxed, and subject to additional noise and air pollution so that a few hundred (even if it is thousands) people a day can travel between Orlando and Miami.

OK, so there are legit concerns.  Why doesn't this group acknowledge these concerns, instead of boat traffic issues? 

[thelakelander]

The reason people in Martin County and Northern Palm Beach County are so "uneducated" regarding All Aboard Florida, is because all efforts have been made to keep us from learning about this boondoggle until it is too late to stop it.  If you were educated about the situation you would know that we are upset about much more than just boat traffic.

What information was withheld in Martin and Northern Palm Beach Counties that was shared in the rest of the state and not available through a simple google search?

In Jupiter-Tequesta we have 7 railroad crossings and an ancient unmanned bridge trestle all within about 6 miles.  The plan is for the train to pass through at speeds of up to 110 mph.  There are roadways on both sides of the tracks along most of this length so at each cross street there is a traffic light.  These intersections are perfect locations for vehicles to get trapped on the tracks.  To help prevent vehicles being trapped the light cycles at each of these intersections have to have special cycles each time a train passes through.  Then because of the many turn lanes, it takes a couple of special cycles to get the traffic pattern flowing "normally" again.  32 additional crossings a day mostly during daylight hours is going to cause constant gridlock in our communities.   The local municipalities will also have to spend millions of their taxpayer money to upgrade and maintain all  of these crossings.

What type of gridlock are we talking about? Any technical analysis confirming this situation at this point? Unfortunately, one issue is that the FEC can literally put as many trains on their ROW as they wish and not upgrade crossings other governmental agencies have built across their tracks. If you don't already have a few, perhaps a public investment in a grade separated crossing or two is in order?

The noise from the trains (or the cost of setting up quiet zones) is also an issue as is the increased air pollution due to the constant gridlock.  The degradation in the quality of living in these towns will also decrease property values  (Hmmm where will that taxpayer money come from??)  All of this for what???  There is NO benefit for those living these towns or any towns north of West Palm Beach.   Hundreds of thousands of people will be inconvenienced, additionally taxed, and subject to additional noise and air pollution so that a few hundred (even if it is thousands) people a day can travel between Orlando and Miami.

Again, I'm not sure all the Treasure Coast opposition in the world will stop additional rail traffic on FEC's ROW if FEC wants it.  One benefit would come in the form of FEC/AAF paying to upgrade track infrastructure improvements also needed for Amtrak, which would have a Stuart stop. Palm Beach County will have an AAF stop and associated TOD investments in downtown West Palm Beach.

My advice would be to see what type of concessions you can get FEC/AAF to cover. However, what really needs to be addressed is local land use and transportation planning moving forward. This area would benefit from a grade separated crossing or two.  Unfortunately, it appears there's a lot of new development where the infrastructure costs have been passed on to the taxpayer, as opposed to the developer properly funding their negative impact to public infrastructure.  It's kind of hard to win an argument claiming that FEC/AAF should bail out bad local planning and development patterns. Looking at Google Earth, it appears golf has been historically more important than providing the necessary infrastructure to get people across the tracks that divide this area in half. Seriously, what happens in the event of an emergency if tracks are blocked?
 

[jupiter]

Yes the info is available if you are looking for it.  Most people don't sit around doing random searches regarding FEC plans. Also many people are still confusing the FEC tracks with the CSX tracks

Some of the roadways that surround the tracks have been in the same locations almost as long as the tracks.  There are also other other restrictions through these areas because of the waterways .  There simply is not enough room in most cases for grade separated crossings.  Not to mention the cost.

Boating issues bring out the emotions down here.  Much of our economy including tourism is based on the marine industry.  People are just starting to realize the rest of the impacts.   This movement will continue to grow.

And seriously what do we do in emergencies if the tracks are blocked?  This is no joke in many areas.  We have at least 3 out the 4 crossings in Jupiter blocked about twice a year since I've lived here.  With the river to our north it leaves two options,  head south until you find an open road (along with everyone else) or find something else to occupy yourself for a couple of hours. 

[mbwright]

Unfortunately, it appears there's a lot of new development where the infrastructure costs have been passed on to the taxpayer, as opposed to the developer properly funding their negative impact to public infrastructure.

This never happens....

I'm sure FEC could run as many freight trains, at a significant length, as it wanted to, if it had the need to.  Passenger train are rarely 80-100 cars long.  While I agree that more trains would mean more crossings, the speed and length should not make much of an impact.

[Traveller]

How long are these AAF trains expected to be?  Four to five cars maybe?  When Amtrak trains come through Ortega, it's barely 30 seconds from arms-down to arms-up.  These won't be like freight trains that can tie up a crossing for 10 minutes at a time.

Also, with that S-curve from Tequesta Drive to Center Street near the lighthouse, I can't imagine these trains will be plowing through Jupiter at 100 mph.

[ChriswUfGator]

So the concern is that it will disrupt traffic flow. A reasonable concern.

Problem is, the proposed solution isn't reasonable. The FEC owns the tracks, and because of the age of that railroad, most likely owns the land underneath them. Your roadways that came along 100 years later only have an easement to cross their tracks, not vice versa. The bottom line is the FEC can do what it wishes with its tracks, and if it causes a traffic problem in your community then the onus is on your local government to fix the crossings to resolve the concerns, which the community and not the FEC built in the first place. That isn't the FEC's obligation.

[thelakelander]

^ Pretty much. The FEC has been there since 1893. In fact, Henry Flagler platted West Palm Beach when he extended his railroad into the area.  Legally, FEC can add or subtract as many trains as they wish. They own the tracks and the ROW.  The concern is a valid one but it's one that needs to be addressed and funded with local dollars or state money (assuming major crossings are FDOT facilities).

[Lunican]

Actually, even if the tracks had only been there ten years the local government still can not regulate rail traffic.

[jupiter]

We can place blame on what the community planners did or did not do but that does not change the current situation.  Many of these roads have been here almost as long as the rails (maybe some longer - I'm trying to find that out).  Yes the FEC has no obligation to fix the crossings, but they do have an obligation for the safety of their commuters and those whose live and work in the proximity of their tracks.

The crossing arms only being down 30 seconds looks good on paper, but with the roads paralleling tracks throughout Palm Beach County it is still going to cause major traffic problems by time the traffic lights change cycles for the train and then reset and clear out all the turn lanes.

My main point is this is not a NIMBY problem.  This is a problem that will affect the daily lives and livelihoods of hundreds of thousands of people in South Florida.