Why We Can't Have Nice Things

[JayBird]

Wait a second, so not only was the claim that our park system is #1 in the country completely wrong, we're actually ranked #44 out of 50? Lol...why do people have this knee-jerk defensive Napoleon complex about how everything around here is the best, greatest, etc.? People need to travel more. Thanks for posting the correct number, lake.

Well no Chris, actually they have some credibility. This map is a ranking based on functionality, enjoyment to people, access to facilities and such. However, our own city claims they are the "Largest Urban Park System in the US".

So maybe instead of lashing out at those whom are only stating facts they were told by several sources, why not write one of those strongly worded letters to the city and state agencies that make this claim?

Personally, I think Jacksonville is cheating by just calling open space park space. But then again, every one that comes here for the first time always comments on how green the city is and how that was unexpected. So maybe I now wear the Jacksonville inferiority complex goggles now too.

Here from Visit Jacksonville
[/url
Here from Visit Jacksonville
[url]http://www.visitjacksonville.com/things-to-do/outdoors/]http://www.visitjacksonville.com/things-to-do/outdoors/][/url
Here from Visit Jacksonville
[url]http://www.visitjacksonville.com/things-to-do/outdoors/

Here from from COJ Parks & Recreation:
http://www.coj.net/departments/office-of-economic-development/business-development/life-in-jacksonville/parks---recreation.aspx

Here from COJ:
http://www.coj.net/about-jacksonville.aspx

Here from About.com:
http://jacksonville.about.com/od/historystatsfunfacts/a/Jacksonville-Fun-Facts-And-Trivia.htm

Here from Naval Air Systems Command:
http://www.navair.navy.mil/jobs/fl1.html

Here from the VisitFlorida:
http://www.visitflorida.com/en-us/trails/articles/2011/november/urban-sanctuaries-in-giant-jacksonville-the-nation039s-largest-city-park-system.html

And of course, right here on MJ:
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/mobile/2011-mar-americas-best-city-parks

[ChriswUfGator]

Wait a second, so not only was the claim that our park system is #1 in the country completely wrong, we're actually ranked #44 out of 50? Lol...why do people have this knee-jerk defensive Napoleon complex about how everything around here is the best, greatest, etc.? People need to travel more. Thanks for posting the correct number, lake.

Well no Chris, actually they have some credibility. This map is a ranking based on functionality, enjoyment to people, access to facilities and such. However, our own city claims they are the "Largest Urban Park System in the US".

So maybe instead of lashing out at those whom are only stating facts they were told by several sources, why not write one of those strongly worded letters to the city and state agencies that make this claim?

Personally, I think Jacksonville is cheating by just calling open space park space. But then again, every one that comes here for the first time always comments on how green the city is and how that was unexpected. So maybe I now wear the Jacksonville inferiority complex goggles now too.

Here from Visit Jacksonville
http://www.visitjacksonville.com/things-to-do/outdoors/

Here from from COJ Parks & Recreation:
http://www.coj.net/departments/office-of-economic-development/business-development/life-in-jacksonville/parks---recreation.aspx

Here from COJ:
http://www.coj.net/about-jacksonville.aspx

Here from About.com:
http://jacksonville.about.com/od/historystatsfunfacts/a/Jacksonville-Fun-Facts-And-Trivia.htm

Here from Naval Air Systems Command:
http://www.navair.navy.mil/jobs/fl1.html

Here from the VisitFlorida:
http://www.visitflorida.com/en-us/trails/articles/2011/november/urban-sanctuaries-in-giant-jacksonville-the-nation039s-largest-city-park-system.html

And of course, right here on MJ:
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/mobile/2011-mar-americas-best-city-parks

Well, Jay, the thing is, I just read your links, and none say that. While I know it must be difficult finding the time in between your duties as internet-millionaire / corrections officer / real estate investor / youth counselor / world traveler / all the other crap you claim to be an expert in, I'd still expect you to actually read the links you post to determine whether or not they support your point. Next time you might even try doing it before you post them. But I digress...

Anyway, please point me to where any of these confirm we have "the largest park system in the country"...not simply "one of the" or "a large..." and better yet would be one that acknowledges the point we already argued two pages ago, at which time Lake posted the map showing 90% or thereabouts of what Jacksonville counts as 'parks' are really just pine forests in conservation areas with no trails, benches, or other amenities (e.g., wouldn't be considered a 'park' anywhere but here). In addition to not reading the links, I'd have to question whether you actually read the conversation before posting, this was already covered.

Anyway, so which of your links says we have "the largest park system in the country"?

[thelakelander]

I've never seen a list by acreage or square miles but the claim of the largest urban park system is possibly true because Jax is consolidated with Duval County. Everything in the county outside of Baldwin and the beaches is going to be included in that acreage count. It's like saying Jax is Florida's largest city. Technically, by land area and population within the municipal limits this is correct.  However, only a fool would make the argument that the Miami area is smaller in reality.

Jacksonville proudly boats the largest urban park system in the country with more than 80,000 acres including 10 state parks, five national facilities and dozens of gardens and arboretums.

http://onlyinjax.com/adventure/

[IrvAdams]

Jax also has three of the top-100 largest parks in the US:

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0933260.html

[IrvAdams]

Correction...make that four!

[ChriswUfGator]

I've never seen a list by acreage or square miles but the claim of the largest urban park system is possibly true because Jax is consolidated with Duval County. Everything in the county outside of Baldwin and the beaches is going to be included in that acreage count. It's like saying Jax is Florida's largest city. Technically, by land area and population within the municipal limits this is correct.  However, only a fool would make the argument that the Miami area is smaller in reality.

Jacksonville proudly boats the largest urban park system in the country with more than 80,000 acres including 10 state parks, five national facilities and dozens of gardens and arboretums.

http://onlyinjax.com/adventure/

I agree with the 'only a fool would argue' logic, but unfortunately that seems to be exactly what's happening. Forgetting that most of that acreage isn't anything you could actually call a 'park', even this link (which at least actually makes that claim) is by its own admission counting State parks in its figure. How is a State park (or forests, nature preserves, etc.) supposed to be considered a) part of the municipal park system, or b) urban? Maybe there isn't one, but I'd like to see a list of actual urban parks by acreage (not state-owned forests  and conservation tracts), I bet we're woefully behind our peers.

[ChriswUfGator]

Jax also has three of the top-100 largest parks in the US:

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0933260.html

Since when do you count State-owned nature preserves with few or no public amenities as a city park? If we wanted to count up who's got the largest amount of pine forest let's call it what it is. If it has benches, fountains, sidewalks, a playground, etc., then call it a park. These aren't parks, they're forests etc., with nothing in them other than land. It's also self-contradictory, including mostly State parks in a list that claims to be city parks.

[JayBird]

From the first link

A testament to the untouched beauty of the region and a reflection of the unique authenticity of the Northeast Florida experience, the abundant expanse of park land and ecological preserves in Jacksonville provide an unforgettable opportunity to escape the confines of city life and relax in nature's playground. With over 80,000 designated acres, including the 46,000-acre Timucuan Ecological and Historic Preserve, Jacksonville proudly boasts the largest urban park system in the country.

Second link:

Parks Overview: The City of Jacksonville operates the largest urban park system in the United States, providing services at more than 337 locations on more than 80,000 acres.

Third link:
Omitted because they worded it with "one of"

Fourth link:

The city of Jacksonville operates the largest urban park system in the US with over 80,000 acres devoted to parks and community areas.

Fifth link:

Living & Working in Jacksonville
According to the United States Census Bureau, Jacksonville has an area of 874.3 square miles. Of this, 757.7 square miles is land and 116.7 square miles is water. Jacksonville operates the largest urban park system in the United States, providing facilities and services at more than 337 locations on more than 80,000 acres throughout the city. Jacksonville gathers significant natural beauty from the St. Johns River and Atlantic Ocean and many parks provide access for people to boat, swim, fish, sail, jet ski, surf and water ski. Jacksonville also boasts some of the most prominent golf courses in the country including TPC at Sawgrass, site of the PGA Tour's Players Championship. Jacksonville has been chosen by a number of film and television studios for on-location shooting.

Sixth link:

But seeking sanctuary in a city the locals call "Jax" doesn't have to be daunting. With such size comes the nation's largest urban park system, including more than 337 locales on more than 80,000 acres.

And this wasn't personal, but I assume you don't like people opposing your view. As for the rest:
internet-millionaire: never said I was, and I am far from it. Actually nothing I do deals with the internet.
corrections officer: not even close, though I do work for a non profit agency that assists men being released from state prison. I also am on a state committee for the welfare of persons incarcerated. 
real estate investor: I own my house and rent out another, I guess that could justify an investor 
youth counselor: no, the only youth I work with are those whom are in need of homeless assistance through Catholic Charities and then I am more of a case manager than a counselor or mentor. 
world traveler: outside of trips to the bahamas, going to the jags game in london was my first time out of country in my life .... would you like to check my passport
all the other crap you claim to be an expert in: and here is the heart of your anger. I know I can be seen as condescending at times but usually its just my sarcasm. I grew up in Jersey and it must be in the water because that's just how we are. I am not, nor have I claimed to be an expert in anything. The reason I take part in mj is to learn. There are people who love to recycle the nonsense falsehoods and urban myths and if I know them to be wrong, I state what I know or believe to be true. If I'm wrong, someone corrects me. This is how we learn.

As for this whole foolish back and forth, I wasn't attacking your opinion personally. I was trying to make the point that it is unfair to criticize the posters who stated the largest park system because they do have a valid point. I even said that I didn't agree with that claim, but that doesn't mean I disagree with them.

I am not sure what your issue is with me, I know many lawyers but don't believe we've crossed paths before in real life. But whatever it is, get over it. Life is too short for such personal attacks. Especially when they lack truth. I respect your opinions, but let's just agree to disagree. Okay?

[icarus]

I was reading through this thread and a couple of points popped up ....

1. Jacksonville has a ton of conservation land that was acquired under previous administrations (Brown doesn't photograph well in front of trees) and it may well be that we have the most 'land' set aside for conservation or park use.

2. We don't maintain the parks we have created very well and some of the most utilized parks, i.e. Memorial Park, don't even have amenities like restrooms.

3. We can add conservation and park lands to the very long list of resources with the potential to make our City significant that our leaders squander by not utilizing.

I know Delaney and even Peyton pushed for some resources to open up conservation land for public use .... where Is Brown??

[ChriswUfGator]

From the first link

A testament to the untouched beauty of the region and a reflection of the unique authenticity of the Northeast Florida experience, the abundant expanse of park land and ecological preserves in Jacksonville provide an unforgettable opportunity to escape the confines of city life and relax in nature's playground. With over 80,000 designated acres, including the 46,000-acre Timucuan Ecological and Historic Preserve, Jacksonville proudly boasts the largest urban park system in the country.

Second link:

Parks Overview: The City of Jacksonville operates the largest urban park system in the United States, providing services at more than 337 locations on more than 80,000 acres.

Third link:
Omitted because they worded it with "one of"

Fourth link:

The city of Jacksonville operates the largest urban park system in the US with over 80,000 acres devoted to parks and community areas.

Fifth link:

Living & Working in Jacksonville
According to the United States Census Bureau, Jacksonville has an area of 874.3 square miles. Of this, 757.7 square miles is land and 116.7 square miles is water. Jacksonville operates the largest urban park system in the United States, providing facilities and services at more than 337 locations on more than 80,000 acres throughout the city. Jacksonville gathers significant natural beauty from the St. Johns River and Atlantic Ocean and many parks provide access for people to boat, swim, fish, sail, jet ski, surf and water ski. Jacksonville also boasts some of the most prominent golf courses in the country including TPC at Sawgrass, site of the PGA Tour's Players Championship. Jacksonville has been chosen by a number of film and television studios for on-location shooting.

Sixth link:

But seeking sanctuary in a city the locals call "Jax" doesn't have to be daunting. With such size comes the nation's largest urban park system, including more than 337 locales on more than 80,000 acres.

And this wasn't personal, but I assume you don't like people opposing your view. As for the rest:
internet-millionaire: never said I was, and I am far from it. Actually nothing I do deals with the internet.
corrections officer: not even close, though I do work for a non profit agency that assists men being released from state prison. I also am on a state committee for the welfare of persons incarcerated. 
real estate investor: I own my house and rent out another, I guess that could justify an investor 
youth counselor: no, the only youth I work with are those whom are in need of homeless assistance through Catholic Charities and then I am more of a case manager than a counselor or mentor. 
world traveler: outside of trips to the bahamas, going to the jags game in london was my first time out of country in my life .... would you like to check my passport
all the other crap you claim to be an expert in: and here is the heart of your anger. I know I can be seen as condescending at times but usually its just my sarcasm. I grew up in Jersey and it must be in the water because that's just how we are. I am not, nor have I claimed to be an expert in anything. The reason I take part in mj is to learn. There are people who love to recycle the nonsense falsehoods and urban myths and if I know them to be wrong, I state what I know or believe to be true. If I'm wrong, someone corrects me. This is how we learn.

As for this whole foolish back and forth, I wasn't attacking your opinion personally. I was trying to make the point that it is unfair to criticize the posters who stated the largest park system because they do have a valid point. I even said that I didn't agree with that claim, but that doesn't mean I disagree with them.

I am not sure what your issue is with me, I know many lawyers but don't believe we've crossed paths before in real life. But whatever it is, get over it. Life is too short for such personal attacks. Especially when they lack truth. I respect your opinions, but let's just agree to disagree. Okay?

It's not personal, I'm not angry, I've not met you. For all I know, you're a nice guy. But like most people I do consider the source, and you have a knack for taking the position of authority in whatever topic is being debated. It doesn't rise beyond the level of a minor annoyance though, certainly not actual anger. Human nature being what it is, everybody wants to be right, I'm no different, that doesn't mean it automatically becomes personal when someone disagrees with me. I'm not a park expert, nor did I sleep at a holiday inn express last night. I do watch human nature, and every time I see one of these "Jacksonville has the latest, greatest, biggest, most amazing...(insert item)" claims, I automatically start looking for the misleading statistic, this place has a napoleon complex, we have to be the best in everything...on paper.

Here, when we're discussing urban parks, and for whatever reason all of our local statistics are throwing 80000 acres of pine forest into the mix, how is that an urban park? It's neither a park, nor urban. Just another example of misleading local statistics that make things sound better than they are. We don't have the largest park system in the country, we probably have one of the worst, and simply throw in 80k acres worth of pine forests to bolster the figure.

[JayBird]

But back to the issue, when we're discussing urban parks, and for whatever reason all of our local statistics are throwing 80000 acres of pine forest into the mix, how is that an urban park? It's neither a park, nor urban. Just another example of misleading local statistics that make things sound better than they are. We don't have the largest park system in the country, we probably have one of the worst, and simply throw in 80k acres worth of pine forests to bolster the figure.

Yes this I agree with. As I stated earlier its foolish to consider it all parks. However, I think every city does that to a point. New York City has a wonderful parks system, but they also have "parks" that make the Bay and Broad Pocket Park look top of the line. In Dallas there is a city "park" that is actually a parking lot between office towers.

And actually maybe this brings up a good point, the reason we can't have nice things is because as a community we spend too much time criticizing the past actions or current actions instead of focusing on a future vision and then working everything to get to that point.

[IrvAdams]

You should really see the Timucuan Trail in Ft. Caroline. It may not have full park amenities like a metro park, but it has restrooms, the miles of trails are maintained well and there is signage, observation decks, and lots of observable history of this gentle Indian people from 1000 years ago. It's big enough to get lost in.

Hiking trail parks are parks too. Give it some love.

[simms3]

Chris, I'm pretty sure you also speak with authority on every topic you participate in, as well.  I do, too.  We can't possibly take offense at others who do.  I'm certainly used to people attacking me, personally, for a variety of reasons, knowing that they all stem from my so-called arrogance and my "speaking with a tone of authority", however, you are just as big a culprit.  I think people know you personally or have at least met you, and you can get away with it, it appears, however, you can't take offense when others take the very same tone you do, and moreso, you can't attack them personally for it.

[I-10east]

why do people have this knee-jerk defensive Napoleon complex about how everything around here is the best, greatest, etc.?

Funny that you say that. IMO it's exactly vice-versa with many having a 'knee jerk' doomsday complex, and everything here is a failure, the worst etc. It seems like the 'defensive people' can atleast meet halfway, whereas the doomsdayers will not budge at all with any kind of middle ground. The doomsday repetitiveness is amazing, which is why I don't post on these type of threads much anymore.

[edjax]

^^ have to agree with you on that one.  I wonder why some people still live here the way they talk about everything in a negative tone. They will say they are just wanting to make it a better place but when 90% of what you say is negative not really sure how you are going to make a positive impact on a consistent basis.