JTA Transit Initiatives 2014

[JayBird]

So looking at JTA's website, I noticed they changed their Future Plans map to reflect some new options.  One obvious change was the deletion of Commuter Rail. After the first waves of shock and horror wore off though I realized it is titled "Transit Initiatives 2014". So I am not sure if this is what will be implemented next year, or if it just means what they plan to study or look at further.



Some good things though:

1. A new Urban Rail line from Jacksonville Terminal to Gateway Shopping Center

The S-Line has been a topic of great discussion on MJ, nice to see them finally take notice.

2. A Streetcar line serving Five Points and Jacksonville Landing/Bay Street.

It has been five years since they did the study on this. You can see the MJ forum discussion here http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2009-jan-streetcars-coming-to-downtown-jacksonville

3. New Express Bus Routes that serve Park-N-Ride lots in the outer region.

Looking eerily familiar to the Commuter Rail map, these lots will be built and provide a direct link downtown.

4. A continuing look at BRT service county wide

These routes have changed over time, but all fairly minor. It would seem JTA is pretty much set on the BRT plan.

5. New High Frequency Bus Service routes

Serving many neighborhoods, I am not sure if this is just like an Express Bus line?

6. Expansion of Skyway into Brooklyn

Old news now, but nice to see they are keeping it at the forefront for investment.

The most surprising to me was that lack of service provided to SJTC/UNF area. I would think that would be a larger attractor area than Avenues Mall.

The commuter rail still seems to be waiting on the back burner, now JTA has added wording on the page that says they'd like to develop it all the way to Bunnell.

Also the water ferry routes have been removed from the maps, but I am not sure anyone really took those seriously. The current private water taxi system downtown seems to do just fine.


This is the Commuter Rail plan map, notice the similarities between that and the Commuter Express buses. Even kept same red line designation.

JTA Park-N-Ride study http://www.jtafla.com/pdf/ridingJTA/Park%20and%20Ride%20Final%20Draft%20with%20Cover.pdf

[thelakelander]

Don't worry about the red highlight I added in this old map. However, this map can be used to compare with the updated maps you posted.




Other than a few minor changes (the largest change is the inclusion of express bus routes paralleling proposed commuter rail corridors), the new map looks a lot like the old one.

I'd assume this maps shows short term initiatives. Assuming it's even feasible, their first commuter rail line is still probably a decade away.  I believe either Amtrak or AAF will be running on the FEC between Jax and Miami before we have local commuter rail.

1. The S-Line has been a part of their initiatives map for a few years now. We started promoting it around 2006 and after a few years, they added it as a part of the North commuter rail corridor. This corridor is also a mobility fee priority project, so as long as COJ collects a fee, some money to build it will materialize without the need to raise taxes.


2. The streetcar route has been on the initiatives map for a while as well. Like the S-Line, the streetcar route between DT and Riverside is listed as a priority project in the COJ mobility plan. Collect a fee and money will eventually be there for it. Unfortunately, I'm of the opinion that some may fight it if it ever came online due to a misunderstanding of the benefits that come with it.

4. Yes, JTA is set on forcing that BRT plan down the community's throat. Luckily, because of Metro Jacksonville, we were able to get it down to this "enhanced service" plan as opposed to the billion dollar atrocity that was being promoted originally.

5. I'd assume high frequency bus corridors are regular bus routes with decent headways (under 15 minutes).

6. Nice to see that on there.  Also, I'm of the opinion that it's just as valid to get the Skyway over the FEC to Atlantic Boulevard in San Marco. A short 1/2 mile extension puts it, downtown residents and workers within walking distance of everything springing up along Hendricks and in San Marco Square.  In the past, Doug Skiles has mentioned creating a TIF District as a way to fund it.  I think that should be seriously be considered. It was in the mobility plan as a valid transportation solution but was removed strictly because of politics (fear of the skyway's inclusion killing the entire plan due to task force members not liking the skyway).

[thelakelander]

The most surprising to me was that lack of service provided to SJTC/UNF area. I would think that would be a larger attractor area than Avenues Mall.

Yeah. Unfortunately, we've totally missed the JTB corridor.  That's what happens when you have BRT routes based off decade old studies that were not coordinated with land use policy at the time. Most of that stuff on JTB wasn't there when the BJP was passed.  Southpoint, SJTC, UNF, Mayo Clinic, etc. all either missed or served inadequately. IMO, today, it would make more sense to run a real BRT or LRT line down JTB (think San Diego Trolley Green LRT Line or LA Silver BRT Line) than running BRT down Philips to Avenues Mall.

In fact, looking at the 2014 map, I think I'd run the Southeast BRT line down Philips and then to JTB and either up San Pablo or A1A to access Jax Beach.  For the rest of Beach Boulevard and Philips between JTB and Avenues, I'd make them high frequency bus corridors.

[JayBird]

In fact, looking at the 2014 map, I think I'd run the Southeast BRT line down Philips and then to JTB and either up San Pablo or A1A to access Jax Beach.  For the rest of Beach Boulevard and Philips between JTB and Avenues, I'd make them high frequency bus corridors.

Now that makes sense, would open a huge connection there. Which brings up another point, at times JTA and even myself when I look at the maps, like to see everything run through a DT hub when it would be more feasible to run from point A to point C without having to go through Point b

[ProjectMaximus]

If the BRT lines are meant as a stopgap precursor for future commuter rail, whenever that might be, then it makes sense. Those are high-traffic corridors and it's useful to serve them with transit. I think those park-and-ride stations were intended for commuter rail anyway. As for the Avenues, it benefits from lying basically on the Southeast route towards St Augustine. I believe that Avenues Walk was developed with an eye towards a future rail station, and maybe Latitude 30 has the same thought in mind.

As for the Skyway, it's not saying much since I basically agree with Lake on everything (non-sports) but the extension down to Atlantic blvd seems obvious! Getting over the FEC tracks, you could drop a station at the park next to the library and then a few more blocks down to Atlantic to serve the san marco square and easy connection with a future heavy rail line. I'm getting greedy but whats the status of the old Jackson Square development?

[JayBird]

As for the Skyway, it's not saying much since I basically agree with Lake on everything (non-sports) but the extension down to Atlantic blvd seems obvious! Getting over the FEC tracks, you could drop a station at the park next to the library and then a few more blocks down to Atlantic to serve the san marco square and easy connection with a future heavy rail line. I'm getting greedy but whats the status of the old Jackson Square development?

I too wonder about Jackson square because that will really jump that entire area. Ever since the seedy motels were closed it has become desolate over there. Also, didn't they plan to give land to or build a branch terminal for the Skyway?

These Skyway extensions, especially in San Marco seem to bring issues of rights of way, crossing FEC, bridge clearances ... Would a streetcar be a more feasible or cheaper solution?

One thing I will say, to the people who are paid to plan this stuff it must be difficult when you have to guess what the situation will be 10 years later when that idea is actually coming to fruition.

[thelakelander]

If the BRT lines are meant as a stopgap precursor for future commuter rail, whenever that might be, then it makes sense.

Hopefully, BRT isn't meant to be a stopgap precursor for commuter rail because they are two different animals altogether.  It's not even a precursor to LRT. Actually, we're not even getting true BRT.  What we're getting is what should be expected in any city of decent size. Bus routes that run on decent headways and that are easy to understand and rely upon for end users. We will definitely benefit from better bus service, but we're setting ourselves up for a major disappointment if we expect it to deliver anything more than that.

As for the Avenues, it benefits from lying basically on the Southeast route towards St Augustine. I believe that Avenues Walk was developed with an eye towards a future rail station, and maybe Latitude 30 has the same thought in mind.

Funny enough, before I made the full switch from architecture to planning, I worked with the group that developed Latitude 30.  The presence of transit was the last thing on anyone's mind. Before they selected the old Toys R Us, I developed a few conceptual layouts for the same thing at the I-295 East Beltway/Baymeadows Road interchange. I left the firm that was an early partner before they purchased Toys R Us, but I suspect that site was selected because the proforma numbers made sense.

The commuter rail station site at Avenues Walk was an afterthought initially. As the news got out that JTA was considering commuter rail down that corridor, site plans began to morph to attempt to take advantage of the opportunity.  I'd have to dig in our archives, but we ran an article on the changing conceptual site plans of Avenues Walk years ago.

As for the Skyway, it's not saying much since I basically agree with Lake on everything (non-sports) but the extension down to Atlantic blvd seems obvious! Getting over the FEC tracks, you could drop a station at the park next to the library and then a few more blocks down to Atlantic to serve the san marco square and easy connection with a future heavy rail line. I'm getting greedy but whats the status of the old Jackson Square development?

Jackson Square isn't happening anytime soon but I've heard the developer is content on sitting on that property.  Once the Overland Bridge project is complete, it will be a high profile piece of dirt. Also, coordinating land use policy with a Skyway extension to San Marco would not only transform Hendricks, it would also positively impact Kings between the Kings Avenue Station and Atlantic Boulevard.

[thelakelander]

These Skyway extensions, especially in San Marco seem to bring issues of rights of way, crossing FEC, bridge clearances ... Would a streetcar be a more feasible or cheaper solution?

Believe me, the Skyway is your cheapest bet. Streetcar is illogical because you can't get cross the FEC tracks at grade. Once you get it over the tracks, you can drop it to down to grade because there are no streets crossing the FEC between Hendricks Avenue and Atlantic Boulevard. Either way, you'd have to build a grade separated crossing.  With the Skyway, you benefit from the existing infrastructure, like the river crossing and O&M center, already being in place.

One thing I will say, to the people who are paid to plan this stuff it must be difficult when you have to guess what the situation will be 10 years later when that idea is actually coming to fruition.

I had the opportunity to participate in the planning of the mobility plan.  To be honest, while time consuming, it was quite easy once all the data was available.  However, we had the opportunity to coordinate supporting land use policy and create a funding mechanism (mobility fee) to incentivize desired development .  Now that we're finally collecting that fee, we need to make sure the collected funds go to the legacy projects they were intended to pay for.

[thelakelander]

Regarding Avenues Walk, here's a link showing six different conceptual site plans they came up with between 2004 and 2008:

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2008-sep-the-evolution-of-avenues-walk

Start:




End:


Just about all the of tenants for the second phase have been since poached by nearby shopping centers. Forever 21 ended up at the Avenues Mall. Bed Bath & Beyond and Buy Buy Baby ended up at the Southside/I-95 flyover and the bowling alley concept was beaten to the punch by Latitude 30. Furthermore, Bass Pro is going to St. Johns County because they're willing to give them incentives.In all of the plans, a commuter rail station was never shown but a station could have easily been added.

[ProjectMaximus]

^^Yeah I remember those drawings.

I too wonder about Jackson square because that will really jump that entire area. Ever since the seedy motels were closed it has become desolate over there. Also, didn't they plan to give land to or build a branch terminal for the Skyway?

These Skyway extensions, especially in San Marco seem to bring issues of rights of way, crossing FEC, bridge clearances ... Would a streetcar be a more feasible or cheaper solution?

Yeah, Jackson Square was being designed with a skyway station in mind. Perhaps even contingent upon its execution. And as previously discussed on this site, the Skyway is best designed for getting past I95 and over the FEC tracks.

One thing I will say, to the people who are paid to plan this stuff it must be difficult when you have to guess what the situation will be 10 years later when that idea is actually coming to fruition.

Im certainly not an expert but I would think if you've been planning well in the past, then it's much easier to plan for the future. So ideally, you're ahead of the development and growth curve, not attempting to catch up and guessing what's gonna happen next.

With the Skyway, you benefit from the existing infrastructure, like the river crossing and O&M center, already being in place.

Yeah, as much as the Skyway has been a thorn in the side of pro-transit Jax, to an amateur observer like me it seems one of its strongest assets is often overlooked: the automated aspect. It strikes me as actually quite a great advantage, no?

[thelakelander]

I also see it as one of downtown's strongest assets.  We have no one to blame but ourselves for not coordinating downtown development and the overall mass transit network with it over the last two decades.  It may only be 2.5 miles but if I had any control over it, I'd attempt to fill up all of the empty JTA owned land adjacent to its stations with TOD and add short extensions to slightly penetrate adjacent neighborhoods.  The bus system would then be modified to feed it with riders and serve areas outside of the core area.  While we wouldn't immediately have a fixed transit system that stretches across the county, we'd still end up with a decent sized urban zone where that short line would directly connect its riders with most daily needs.