10 Companies Paying Americans the Least

Started by thelakelander, November 17, 2013, 02:18:57 PM

BridgeTroll

Quote from: ChriswUfGator on November 20, 2013, 09:40:29 AM
The high tech skill they often lack is the ability to feed a family on chump change. It's not that workers are unavailable in the US who can write software code, far from it. Just none willing to do a given job for what the company would like to pay for it. Basic supply and demand, although they misconstrue this as no workers being available. Unfortunately now there is the third option of outsourcing or importing workers from some other economically disadvantaged country, which has the result you'd expect, declining average wages in the US. For any given job, offer a high enough salary and I guarantee you'll fill it domestically. That isn't what's happening, it's a constant move to 'how cheap can I get away with.'

Not sure this even makes sense Chris.  So you are telling me that since the american high tech engineer will not work for "chump change" at some company... they are opting for Walmart and Starbucks?
In a boat at sea one of the men began to bore a hole in the bottom of the boat. On being remonstrating with, he answered, "I am only boring under my own seat." "Yes," said his companions, "but when the sea rushes in we shall all be drowned with you."

ChriswUfGator

Quote from: BridgeTroll on November 20, 2013, 09:46:38 AM
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on November 20, 2013, 09:40:29 AM
The high tech skill they often lack is the ability to feed a family on chump change. It's not that workers are unavailable in the US who can write software code, far from it. Just none willing to do a given job for what the company would like to pay for it. Basic supply and demand, although they misconstrue this as no workers being available. Unfortunately now there is the third option of outsourcing or importing workers from some other economically disadvantaged country, which has the result you'd expect, declining average wages in the US. For any given job, offer a high enough salary and I guarantee you'll fill it domestically. That isn't what's happening, it's a constant move to 'how cheap can I get away with.'

Not sure this even makes sense Chris.  So you are telling me that since the american high tech engineer will not work for "chump change" at some company... they are opting for Walmart and Starbucks?

More like they go do something else for somebody else somewhere else instead of work for less than what their student loans or supporting their family costs them.


BridgeTroll

Quote from: ChriswUfGator on November 20, 2013, 09:52:43 AM
Quote from: BridgeTroll on November 20, 2013, 09:46:38 AM
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on November 20, 2013, 09:40:29 AM
The high tech skill they often lack is the ability to feed a family on chump change. It's not that workers are unavailable in the US who can write software code, far from it. Just none willing to do a given job for what the company would like to pay for it. Basic supply and demand, although they misconstrue this as no workers being available. Unfortunately now there is the third option of outsourcing or importing workers from some other economically disadvantaged country, which has the result you'd expect, declining average wages in the US. For any given job, offer a high enough salary and I guarantee you'll fill it domestically. That isn't what's happening, it's a constant move to 'how cheap can I get away with.'

Not sure this even makes sense Chris.  So you are telling me that since the American high tech engineer will not work for "chump change" at some company... they are opting for Walmart and Starbucks?

More like they go do something else for somebody else somewhere else instead of work for less than what their student loans or supporting their family costs them.

So... your suggesting American high tech skilled workers are opting for higher paying jobs overseas while US firms are hiring foreign high tech skilled workers and paying them less?  I cannot remember seeing anything describing this exodus of US talent.  There is plenty of evidence for American firms hiring foreign talent due to a lack of qualified American...
In a boat at sea one of the men began to bore a hole in the bottom of the boat. On being remonstrating with, he answered, "I am only boring under my own seat." "Yes," said his companions, "but when the sea rushes in we shall all be drowned with you."

BridgeTroll

http://immigrationimpact.com/2012/05/24/administration-takes-step-to-keep-talented-foreign-students-in-the-u-s/

QuoteAdministration Takes Step to Keep Talented Foreign Students in the U.S.

Current U.S. immigration law provides few options for foreign graduates of U.S. universities with degrees in science, technology, engineering, and math ("STEM" degrees) who want to stay here to contribute their skills and knowledge. Not enough American students are interested in these fields, even as employers regularly cannot find enough people with the high-tech and scientific knowledge and skills they need to fill available positions. Luckily for the United States, international students seek out these majors and excel in them. But increasingly, we lose these talented graduates to other competitor countries where immigration laws are friendlier. This is, of course, an enormous loss to the U.S. economy, as international students with STEM degrees often create successful businesses and jobs in the United States. Last week, DHS took a strong step forward by expanding the list of STEM fields for foreign graduates applying to training programs after graduation.
- See more at: http://immigrationimpact.com/2012/05/24/administration-takes-step-to-keep-talented-foreign-students-in-the-u-s/#sthash.IWkBZ8KE.dpuf
In a boat at sea one of the men began to bore a hole in the bottom of the boat. On being remonstrating with, he answered, "I am only boring under my own seat." "Yes," said his companions, "but when the sea rushes in we shall all be drowned with you."

ChriswUfGator

#64
Quote from: Apache on November 20, 2013, 09:49:07 AM
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on November 20, 2013, 09:40:29 AM
The high tech skill they often lack is the ability to feed a family on chump change. It's not that workers are unavailable in the US who can write software code, far from it. Just none willing to do a given job for what the company would like to pay for it. Basic supply and demand, although they misconstrue this as no workers being available. Unfortunately now there is the third option of outsourcing or importing workers from some other economically disadvantaged country, which has the result you'd expect, declining average wages in the US. For any given job, offer a high enough salary and I guarantee you'll fill it domestically. That isn't what's happening, it's a constant move to 'how cheap can I get away with.'

Don't you cut costs as much as possible at your office to increase your profits? Doesn't anyone who runs a business?
Is the outrage people have because of the scale these companies?

Any business person that doesn't negotiate with their suppliers and contractors, hire cheap or free interns, switches suppliers for a better price, etc is considered a bad business person. And after we whittle down our costs we all try to figure out a way to charge more for our product or service.

We all do the same thing as Wal Mart. Just on a smaller scale.

On some things yes, on other things no. I don't skimp on staff, my lowest paid employee still makes double minimum wage, and both my paralegals have law degrees. It's worth it to me not having to retrain somebody every 5 minutes because of high turnover, or having to fire people who don't know what they're doing or can't learn, these types are really only competing for the job on price alone anyway. That's not worth it in the long run. Being able to come back to my office and find the MSJ I asked for sitting on my desk finished with the research and all, that is worth something. I view staff like pretty much anything else, you have to pay more for more brain cells. I'll admit that if I was in some industry where all we did was make widgets that were all exactly alike, then a lot of what holds true for me wouldn't apply.

If you look at what the fortune 500s do they spend billions on process engineering to compartmentalize tasks and break them down to an allegedly idiot proof level, then try and have whatever can't be done by machine done by minimum wage labor. It's almost obsessive compulsive, if you back out the cost of training and turnover, lower productivity caused by lower satisfaction, and whatever percentage of your own cake you're eating because these people can't afford to shop at your store or buy your product themselves (probably doesn't apply in Walmart's or McDonald's case, but would for places like Starbucks) then it's got to be a wash or even a loss over just hiring fewer people to do more work at a livable wage.

The real difference is nobody I employ is on welfare, food stamps, or medicaid. If my employees can't subsist without government assistance, or if I can't fill a job at a wage that allows an employee to take it and have it make financial sense for them, then there's a problem with the way I do business, not with the employee or with the job market. As taxpayers, I'm surprised you'd agree to subsidize that, you're paying for it, as am I, and everyone else.


ChriswUfGator

Quote from: BridgeTroll on November 20, 2013, 10:00:24 AM
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on November 20, 2013, 09:52:43 AM
Quote from: BridgeTroll on November 20, 2013, 09:46:38 AM
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on November 20, 2013, 09:40:29 AM
The high tech skill they often lack is the ability to feed a family on chump change. It's not that workers are unavailable in the US who can write software code, far from it. Just none willing to do a given job for what the company would like to pay for it. Basic supply and demand, although they misconstrue this as no workers being available. Unfortunately now there is the third option of outsourcing or importing workers from some other economically disadvantaged country, which has the result you'd expect, declining average wages in the US. For any given job, offer a high enough salary and I guarantee you'll fill it domestically. That isn't what's happening, it's a constant move to 'how cheap can I get away with.'

Not sure this even makes sense Chris.  So you are telling me that since the American high tech engineer will not work for "chump change" at some company... they are opting for Walmart and Starbucks?

More like they go do something else for somebody else somewhere else instead of work for less than what their student loans or supporting their family costs them.

So... your suggesting American high tech skilled workers are opting for higher paying jobs overseas while US firms are hiring foreign high tech skilled workers and paying them less?  I cannot remember seeing anything describing this exodus of US talent.  There is plenty of evidence for American firms hiring foreign talent due to a lack of qualified American...

That happens a lot for the record, but what I meant was more in the vein of taking up something that may not be what they wanted to do but pays better. Which is a mistake in terms of efficiency from a market perspective, human capital is best applied doing what they like doing, they're more productive and better at it.


fsquid

we try to cut costs on travel and non-labor materials, but on staff we also do not skim and try to be in the top 75% of pay when compared to our rivals.

BridgeTroll

Quote from: ChriswUfGator on November 20, 2013, 10:16:47 AM
Quote from: BridgeTroll on November 20, 2013, 10:00:24 AM
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on November 20, 2013, 09:52:43 AM
Quote from: BridgeTroll on November 20, 2013, 09:46:38 AM
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on November 20, 2013, 09:40:29 AM
The high tech skill they often lack is the ability to feed a family on chump change. It's not that workers are unavailable in the US who can write software code, far from it. Just none willing to do a given job for what the company would like to pay for it. Basic supply and demand, although they misconstrue this as no workers being available. Unfortunately now there is the third option of outsourcing or importing workers from some other economically disadvantaged country, which has the result you'd expect, declining average wages in the US. For any given job, offer a high enough salary and I guarantee you'll fill it domestically. That isn't what's happening, it's a constant move to 'how cheap can I get away with.'

Not sure this even makes sense Chris.  So you are telling me that since the American high tech engineer will not work for "chump change" at some company... they are opting for Walmart and Starbucks?

More like they go do something else for somebody else somewhere else instead of work for less than what their student loans or supporting their family costs them.

So... your suggesting American high tech skilled workers are opting for higher paying jobs overseas while US firms are hiring foreign high tech skilled workers and paying them less?  I cannot remember seeing anything describing this exodus of US talent.  There is plenty of evidence for American firms hiring foreign talent due to a lack of qualified American...

That happens a lot for the record, but what I meant was more in the vein of taking up something that may not be what they wanted to do but pays better. Which is a mistake in terms of efficiency from a market perspective, human capital is best applied doing what they like doing, they're more productive and better at it.

Hmmm... so... American companies DO pay well... they just don't pay well for jobs Americans LIKE to do?  Seems kind of backward to me.  So we import workers to do High paying jobs because Americans don't like those jobs and prefer to get paid more for jobs that don't pay well? 

We also apparently want to import millions of unskilled laborers to do other jobs Americans do not want to do or pay well enough.

Well... OK... I think we have just identified a big part of the problem...
In a boat at sea one of the men began to bore a hole in the bottom of the boat. On being remonstrating with, he answered, "I am only boring under my own seat." "Yes," said his companions, "but when the sea rushes in we shall all be drowned with you."

ChriswUfGator

Quote from: BridgeTroll on November 20, 2013, 10:51:49 AM
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on November 20, 2013, 10:16:47 AM
Quote from: BridgeTroll on November 20, 2013, 10:00:24 AM
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on November 20, 2013, 09:52:43 AM
Quote from: BridgeTroll on November 20, 2013, 09:46:38 AM
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on November 20, 2013, 09:40:29 AM
The high tech skill they often lack is the ability to feed a family on chump change. It's not that workers are unavailable in the US who can write software code, far from it. Just none willing to do a given job for what the company would like to pay for it. Basic supply and demand, although they misconstrue this as no workers being available. Unfortunately now there is the third option of outsourcing or importing workers from some other economically disadvantaged country, which has the result you'd expect, declining average wages in the US. For any given job, offer a high enough salary and I guarantee you'll fill it domestically. That isn't what's happening, it's a constant move to 'how cheap can I get away with.'

Not sure this even makes sense Chris.  So you are telling me that since the American high tech engineer will not work for "chump change" at some company... they are opting for Walmart and Starbucks?

More like they go do something else for somebody else somewhere else instead of work for less than what their student loans or supporting their family costs them.

So... your suggesting American high tech skilled workers are opting for higher paying jobs overseas while US firms are hiring foreign high tech skilled workers and paying them less?  I cannot remember seeing anything describing this exodus of US talent.  There is plenty of evidence for American firms hiring foreign talent due to a lack of qualified American...

That happens a lot for the record, but what I meant was more in the vein of taking up something that may not be what they wanted to do but pays better. Which is a mistake in terms of efficiency from a market perspective, human capital is best applied doing what they like doing, they're more productive and better at it.

Hmmm... so... American companies DO pay well... they just don't pay well for jobs Americans LIKE to do?  Seems kind of backward to me.  So we import workers to do High paying jobs because Americans don't like those jobs and prefer to get paid more for jobs that don't pay well? 

We also apparently want to import millions of unskilled laborers to do other jobs Americans do not want to do or pay well enough.

Well... OK... I think we have just identified a big part of the problem...

Well, then it's really a question of 'high paying' to who, isn't it? An $18k/yr job probably looks pretty damn good in India or Mexico, but wouldn't allow you live beyond the subsistence level in most places here in the U.S. That's why outsourcing and importing people from other places are both increasingly popular. Many of these firms are intentionally offering a wage that makes it unaffordable for people to take the job here, and then sending the job off somewhere else where the economic conditions are comparatively depressed, or they bring people over through recruiting programs who are willing eat ramen and share a 2 bedroom apartment with 7 people to stockpile $800/mo because that's big money back wherever they're from and they're planning on going back there anyway. This is an economic drain, and has had a pretty devastating effect on our domestic economy as a whole.

Walmart does the same thing, but a little differently. Instead of using exchange rates and global wealth disparities to what one could argue is an unethical, at the very least selfish and unpatriotic, advantage, they simply use the government to subsidize wages so low that nobody could afford to accept them otherwise. If government social programs weren't subsidizing their wages, half their employees would probably not be able to take the jobs.

Besides for the harm this causes to our national economy, I personally believe there are also solid business reasons why it doesn't make nearly much sense as they think it does. Even Walmart has got to have losses from turnover and training, lower productivity due to dissatisfaction, customer losses caused by bad front-line experiences, etc. There's also an entire segment of the population who just won't shop there because because they don't feel like waiting 45 minutes in a checkout line, or having nobody around to help them if they can't find something, and mainly because they don't have to. There is a real cost to all of that, though the exact dollar amount is probably hard to quantify.


finehoe

Quote from: JayBird on November 19, 2013, 08:25:32 PM
So yes, I tend to believe what I can see is true at my job and what others tell me than what some statistician shows on a chart

Yes, anecdotes are always more valid than statistical evidence.

BridgeTroll

Quote from: ChriswUfGator on November 20, 2013, 12:02:11 PM
Quote from: BridgeTroll on November 20, 2013, 10:51:49 AM
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on November 20, 2013, 10:16:47 AM
Quote from: BridgeTroll on November 20, 2013, 10:00:24 AM
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on November 20, 2013, 09:52:43 AM
Quote from: BridgeTroll on November 20, 2013, 09:46:38 AM
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on November 20, 2013, 09:40:29 AM
The high tech skill they often lack is the ability to feed a family on chump change. It's not that workers are unavailable in the US who can write software code, far from it. Just none willing to do a given job for what the company would like to pay for it. Basic supply and demand, although they misconstrue this as no workers being available. Unfortunately now there is the third option of outsourcing or importing workers from some other economically disadvantaged country, which has the result you'd expect, declining average wages in the US. For any given job, offer a high enough salary and I guarantee you'll fill it domestically. That isn't what's happening, it's a constant move to 'how cheap can I get away with.'

Not sure this even makes sense Chris.  So you are telling me that since the American high tech engineer will not work for "chump change" at some company... they are opting for Walmart and Starbucks?

More like they go do something else for somebody else somewhere else instead of work for less than what their student loans or supporting their family costs them.

So... your suggesting American high tech skilled workers are opting for higher paying jobs overseas while US firms are hiring foreign high tech skilled workers and paying them less?  I cannot remember seeing anything describing this exodus of US talent.  There is plenty of evidence for American firms hiring foreign talent due to a lack of qualified American...

That happens a lot for the record, but what I meant was more in the vein of taking up something that may not be what they wanted to do but pays better. Which is a mistake in terms of efficiency from a market perspective, human capital is best applied doing what they like doing, they're more productive and better at it.

Hmmm... so... American companies DO pay well... they just don't pay well for jobs Americans LIKE to do?  Seems kind of backward to me.  So we import workers to do High paying jobs because Americans don't like those jobs and prefer to get paid more for jobs that don't pay well? 

We also apparently want to import millions of unskilled laborers to do other jobs Americans do not want to do or pay well enough.

Well... OK... I think we have just identified a big part of the problem...

Well, then it's really a question of 'high paying' to who, isn't it? An $18k/yr job probably looks pretty damn good in India or Mexico, but wouldn't allow you live beyond the subsistence level in most places here in the U.S. That's why outsourcing and importing people from other places are both increasingly popular. Many of these firms are intentionally offering a wage that makes it unaffordable for people to take the job here, and then sending the job off somewhere else where the economic conditions are comparatively depressed, or they bring people over through recruiting programs who are willing eat ramen and share a 2 bedroom apartment with 7 people to stockpile $800/mo because that's big money back wherever they're from and they're planning on going back there anyway. This is an economic drain, and has had a pretty devastating effect on our domestic economy as a whole.

Walmart does the same thing, but a little differently. Instead of using exchange rates and global wealth disparities to what one could argue is an unethical, at the very least selfish and unpatriotic, advantage, they simply use the government to subsidize wages so low that nobody could afford to accept them otherwise. If government social programs weren't subsidizing their wages, half their employees would probably not be able to take the jobs.

Besides for the harm this causes to our national economy, I personally believe there are also solid business reasons why it doesn't make nearly much sense as they think it does. Even Walmart has got to have losses from turnover and training, lower productivity due to dissatisfaction, customer losses caused by bad front-line experiences, etc. There's also an entire segment of the population who just won't shop there because because they don't feel like waiting 45 minutes in a checkout line, or having nobody around to help them if they can't find something, and mainly because they don't have to. There is a real cost to all of that, though the exact dollar amount is probably hard to quantify.

Shockingly... If what you are implying is true... the US government and specifically the current administration is very complicit in lowering wages for US high skilled graduates by increasing the numbers of work visa's for skilled workers and the numbers of foreign students to stay and work.  Of course the reasoning given for this is a LACK OF US HIGHLY TRAINED WORKERS in these fields.  In this particular case I tend to believe the government because it coinsides with what these companies are saying... coupled witheducation stats.

I would contend that the top ten listed here beginning with Walmart and ending with Starbucks pay what they do is because there is a HUGE surplus of undertrained, unskilled workers both within the citizenry and being imported or allowed across the border.  As long as that huge surplus exists... so will the wages.
In a boat at sea one of the men began to bore a hole in the bottom of the boat. On being remonstrating with, he answered, "I am only boring under my own seat." "Yes," said his companions, "but when the sea rushes in we shall all be drowned with you."

ChriswUfGator

Quote from: BridgeTroll on November 20, 2013, 12:32:39 PM
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on November 20, 2013, 12:02:11 PM
Quote from: BridgeTroll on November 20, 2013, 10:51:49 AM
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on November 20, 2013, 10:16:47 AM
Quote from: BridgeTroll on November 20, 2013, 10:00:24 AM
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on November 20, 2013, 09:52:43 AM
Quote from: BridgeTroll on November 20, 2013, 09:46:38 AM
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on November 20, 2013, 09:40:29 AM
The high tech skill they often lack is the ability to feed a family on chump change. It's not that workers are unavailable in the US who can write software code, far from it. Just none willing to do a given job for what the company would like to pay for it. Basic supply and demand, although they misconstrue this as no workers being available. Unfortunately now there is the third option of outsourcing or importing workers from some other economically disadvantaged country, which has the result you'd expect, declining average wages in the US. For any given job, offer a high enough salary and I guarantee you'll fill it domestically. That isn't what's happening, it's a constant move to 'how cheap can I get away with.'

Not sure this even makes sense Chris.  So you are telling me that since the American high tech engineer will not work for "chump change" at some company... they are opting for Walmart and Starbucks?

More like they go do something else for somebody else somewhere else instead of work for less than what their student loans or supporting their family costs them.

So... your suggesting American high tech skilled workers are opting for higher paying jobs overseas while US firms are hiring foreign high tech skilled workers and paying them less?  I cannot remember seeing anything describing this exodus of US talent.  There is plenty of evidence for American firms hiring foreign talent due to a lack of qualified American...

That happens a lot for the record, but what I meant was more in the vein of taking up something that may not be what they wanted to do but pays better. Which is a mistake in terms of efficiency from a market perspective, human capital is best applied doing what they like doing, they're more productive and better at it.

Hmmm... so... American companies DO pay well... they just don't pay well for jobs Americans LIKE to do?  Seems kind of backward to me.  So we import workers to do High paying jobs because Americans don't like those jobs and prefer to get paid more for jobs that don't pay well? 

We also apparently want to import millions of unskilled laborers to do other jobs Americans do not want to do or pay well enough.

Well... OK... I think we have just identified a big part of the problem...

Well, then it's really a question of 'high paying' to who, isn't it? An $18k/yr job probably looks pretty damn good in India or Mexico, but wouldn't allow you live beyond the subsistence level in most places here in the U.S. That's why outsourcing and importing people from other places are both increasingly popular. Many of these firms are intentionally offering a wage that makes it unaffordable for people to take the job here, and then sending the job off somewhere else where the economic conditions are comparatively depressed, or they bring people over through recruiting programs who are willing eat ramen and share a 2 bedroom apartment with 7 people to stockpile $800/mo because that's big money back wherever they're from and they're planning on going back there anyway. This is an economic drain, and has had a pretty devastating effect on our domestic economy as a whole.

Walmart does the same thing, but a little differently. Instead of using exchange rates and global wealth disparities to what one could argue is an unethical, at the very least selfish and unpatriotic, advantage, they simply use the government to subsidize wages so low that nobody could afford to accept them otherwise. If government social programs weren't subsidizing their wages, half their employees would probably not be able to take the jobs.

Besides for the harm this causes to our national economy, I personally believe there are also solid business reasons why it doesn't make nearly much sense as they think it does. Even Walmart has got to have losses from turnover and training, lower productivity due to dissatisfaction, customer losses caused by bad front-line experiences, etc. There's also an entire segment of the population who just won't shop there because because they don't feel like waiting 45 minutes in a checkout line, or having nobody around to help them if they can't find something, and mainly because they don't have to. There is a real cost to all of that, though the exact dollar amount is probably hard to quantify.

Shockingly... If what you are implying is true... the US government and specifically the current administration is very complicit in lowering wages for US high skilled graduates by increasing the numbers of work visa's for skilled workers and the numbers of foreign students to stay and work.  Of course the reasoning given for this is a LACK OF US HIGHLY TRAINED WORKERS in these fields.  In this particular case I tend to believe the government because it coinsides with what these companies are saying... coupled witheducation stats.

I would contend that the top ten listed here beginning with Walmart and ending with Starbucks pay what they do is because there is a HUGE surplus of undertrained, unskilled workers both within the citizenry and being imported or allowed across the border.  As long as that huge surplus exists... so will the wages.

You hit the nail on the head, every administration since Reagan, and really heating up under Clinton with NAFTA, has been infatuated with globalization and listens to these whining Fortune 500 companies who bitch and moan as though they're about to go out of business despite record profits (and more importantly who make campaign contributions). These guys have managed to create a grossly underpaid shadow workforce on our own soil, and have then sent much of the rest overseas through outsourcing. The current administration is no different, absolute denialism on what 'globalization' as it's currently interpreted actually causes.


BridgeTroll

Quote from: ChriswUfGator on November 20, 2013, 12:45:56 PM
Quote from: BridgeTroll on November 20, 2013, 12:32:39 PM
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on November 20, 2013, 12:02:11 PM
Quote from: BridgeTroll on November 20, 2013, 10:51:49 AM
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on November 20, 2013, 10:16:47 AM
Quote from: BridgeTroll on November 20, 2013, 10:00:24 AM
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on November 20, 2013, 09:52:43 AM
Quote from: BridgeTroll on November 20, 2013, 09:46:38 AM
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on November 20, 2013, 09:40:29 AM
The high tech skill they often lack is the ability to feed a family on chump change. It's not that workers are unavailable in the US who can write software code, far from it. Just none willing to do a given job for what the company would like to pay for it. Basic supply and demand, although they misconstrue this as no workers being available. Unfortunately now there is the third option of outsourcing or importing workers from some other economically disadvantaged country, which has the result you'd expect, declining average wages in the US. For any given job, offer a high enough salary and I guarantee you'll fill it domestically. That isn't what's happening, it's a constant move to 'how cheap can I get away with.'

Not sure this even makes sense Chris.  So you are telling me that since the American high tech engineer will not work for "chump change" at some company... they are opting for Walmart and Starbucks?

More like they go do something else for somebody else somewhere else instead of work for less than what their student loans or supporting their family costs them.

So... your suggesting American high tech skilled workers are opting for higher paying jobs overseas while US firms are hiring foreign high tech skilled workers and paying them less?  I cannot remember seeing anything describing this exodus of US talent.  There is plenty of evidence for American firms hiring foreign talent due to a lack of qualified American...

That happens a lot for the record, but what I meant was more in the vein of taking up something that may not be what they wanted to do but pays better. Which is a mistake in terms of efficiency from a market perspective, human capital is best applied doing what they like doing, they're more productive and better at it.

Hmmm... so... American companies DO pay well... they just don't pay well for jobs Americans LIKE to do?  Seems kind of backward to me.  So we import workers to do High paying jobs because Americans don't like those jobs and prefer to get paid more for jobs that don't pay well? 

We also apparently want to import millions of unskilled laborers to do other jobs Americans do not want to do or pay well enough.

Well... OK... I think we have just identified a big part of the problem...

Well, then it's really a question of 'high paying' to who, isn't it? An $18k/yr job probably looks pretty damn good in India or Mexico, but wouldn't allow you live beyond the subsistence level in most places here in the U.S. That's why outsourcing and importing people from other places are both increasingly popular. Many of these firms are intentionally offering a wage that makes it unaffordable for people to take the job here, and then sending the job off somewhere else where the economic conditions are comparatively depressed, or they bring people over through recruiting programs who are willing eat ramen and share a 2 bedroom apartment with 7 people to stockpile $800/mo because that's big money back wherever they're from and they're planning on going back there anyway. This is an economic drain, and has had a pretty devastating effect on our domestic economy as a whole.

Walmart does the same thing, but a little differently. Instead of using exchange rates and global wealth disparities to what one could argue is an unethical, at the very least selfish and unpatriotic, advantage, they simply use the government to subsidize wages so low that nobody could afford to accept them otherwise. If government social programs weren't subsidizing their wages, half their employees would probably not be able to take the jobs.

Besides for the harm this causes to our national economy, I personally believe there are also solid business reasons why it doesn't make nearly much sense as they think it does. Even Walmart has got to have losses from turnover and training, lower productivity due to dissatisfaction, customer losses caused by bad front-line experiences, etc. There's also an entire segment of the population who just won't shop there because because they don't feel like waiting 45 minutes in a checkout line, or having nobody around to help them if they can't find something, and mainly because they don't have to. There is a real cost to all of that, though the exact dollar amount is probably hard to quantify.

Shockingly... If what you are implying is true... the US government and specifically the current administration is very complicit in lowering wages for US high skilled graduates by increasing the numbers of work visa's for skilled workers and the numbers of foreign students to stay and work.  Of course the reasoning given for this is a LACK OF US HIGHLY TRAINED WORKERS in these fields.  In this particular case I tend to believe the government because it coinsides with what these companies are saying... coupled witheducation stats.

I would contend that the top ten listed here beginning with Walmart and ending with Starbucks pay what they do is because there is a HUGE surplus of undertrained, unskilled workers both within the citizenry and being imported or allowed across the border.  As long as that huge surplus exists... so will the wages.

You hit the nail on the head, every administration since Reagan, and really heating up under Clinton with NAFTA, has been infatuated with globalization and listens to these whining Fortune 500 companies who bitch and moan as though they're about to go out of business despite record profits (and more importantly who make campaign contributions). These guys have managed to create a grossly underpaid shadow workforce on our own soil, and have then sent much of the rest overseas through outsourcing. The current administration is no different, absolute denialism on what 'globalization' as it's currently interpreted actually causes.

It certainly may be part of the problem... but Americans themselves need to take a good look at what they are doing and not doing.  It begins with our HS graduation rate which hovers at 70% and is as low as 50% for certain groups.  This ensures that 30 -50% of our workforce is destined for minimum wage jobs.  This is a surplus our top ten is more than happy to help employ.

To excaberate the surplus of minimum wagers... we are allowing millions of new (illegal) immigrants who are willing to work for less than the minimum.  There appear to be plenty of employers willing to hire them.

Next our best students who do go to university and graduate... are getting degrees in fields they "like" rather than the fields "available".  This of course requires companies to hire people from other countries to fill the void with the aid of the US government.
In a boat at sea one of the men began to bore a hole in the bottom of the boat. On being remonstrating with, he answered, "I am only boring under my own seat." "Yes," said his companions, "but when the sea rushes in we shall all be drowned with you."

TheCat

11 Reasons to Love Costco -

1. The company pays a living wage. Costco's CEO and president, Craig Jelinek, has publicly endorsed raising the federal minimum wage to $10.10 an hour, and he takes that to heart. The company's starting pay is $11.50 per hour, and the average employee wage is $21 per hour, not including overtime. Most other big box retailers start their employees at minimum wage.

2. Workers get benefits. About 88 percent of Costco employees have company-sponsored health insurance, according to David Sherwood, Costco's Director of Financial Planning and Investor Relations. "I just think people need to make a living wage with health benefits," Jelinek told Bloomberg. "It also puts more money back into the economy and creates a healthier country. It's really that simple."

3. The CEO makes a reasonable salary. Costco's CEO makes far less than most executives, with a total compensation package of about $4.83 million in 2012. In contrast, Walmart CEO Mike Duke made roughly $19.3 million during the same year. Walmart's CEO earns as much as 796 average employees, according to CNN Money, compared to Costco's CEO making 48 times more than the company's median wage.


4. Costco helped its employees weather the recession. When the economic crisis hit and other retailers laid off workers, Costco's CEO approved a $1.50-an-hour wage increase for many hourly employees, spread out over three years.

5. Costco doesn't kill Thanksgiving. While many of its competitors are forcing employees to work on Thanksgiving Day, Costco will buck the trend and stay closed.

6. It also doesn't waste money on expensive advertising. The company doesn't advertise nor does it hire a public relations staff. Meanwhile, Walmart dropped $1.89 billion on ads in 2011.

7. Its prices aren't horrendously high. Costco never marks up products by more than 15 percent, while most retailers commonly mark products up by more than 25 percent.

8. It embraces equality. Costco scored extremely well (90/100) on the Human Rights Campaign's Corporate Equality Index, an assessment of LGBT policies in the workplace.

9. It hires from the inside. More than 70 percent of its warehouse managers began their careers working the register or the floor.

10. Costco's employees are loyal. For employees that have worked at the company for more than one year, the annual turnover rate is below six percent, according to Sherwood. For executives, the turnover rate is less than one percent.

11. Free samples. Need we say more?


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/11/19/reasons-love-costco_n_4275774.html?ncid=edlinkusaolp00000009

finehoe

Research shows the US is a low wage country

Recent research from John Schmitt of the Center for Economic Policy Research shows that the US leads developed countries in the share of workers earning low wages. The research also shows that increased wage polarization over the last several decades is one of the reasons for the large share of low wage-work in the US.



http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505144_162-57415828/research-shows-the-us-is-a-low-wage-country/