Trainsforming America Coming to Jacksonville

[CityLife]

I'm convinced most people who love the idea of public transportation have never had to rely on it daily.

Funny, because all my friends from Jax/Florida in Chicago and New York love public transportation there and hate coming home and having to drive everywhere. My stepsister has lived in Paris for about 3 years and just spent a month back home and whined constantly about how terrible it was not being able to walk/bike/train everywhere.

[simms3]

I lived in NYC for years and had no car in the city. Thus I used the NYC subway system and the various regional rail systems. Metro rail (Metro North) out of Grand Central was a great way to travel regionally. It was great to relax and watch the miles zoom by. 

The NYC subway system was a terrible experience and a nice private car is a better way to travel in every respect except parking and getting home after hitting the bars.  I would never want to trade my car for subway travel again.

Just one little (of many) quality of life issues: illness. Do you know the effect of being packed onto a subway car several times a day with hundreds of strangers? You're sick a lot more. It seemed like I had a perpetual cold living in NYC.  In NYC I caught 8-10 colds during a winter season in JAX maybe one a year.

That doesn't of course include the stink, the homeless, the panhandlers, the public masterbators, the rats, the heat in the summer, the constant crush of people, the noise.

I'm convinced most people who love the idea of public transportation have never had to rely on it daily.

OMG I was going to have the same exact post last night and thought better, which is why I left it short and sweet.

NYC subways are the worst, as are the systems in big Euro cities like Madrid, London, Paris (never been to Asia), but SF's is pretty close during commute hours and Boston's and Philly's likewise.

I think SF has the busiest bus route in the nation (the 38), which I have to use pretty frequently, and busses can be even worse than trains.  I've had many a time where I'm at a stop and 3 busses on my route pass by without stopping because they are simply too full.

And not to mention the little things that provide coffee table talk in the AM at work:

Suicide jumpers on tracks shutting trains down (this actually happens more with our regional commuter trains than with BART or Muni).
Labor strikes (both SF and NYC are very familiar with these pleasant experiences)
Heat waves or cold snaps (fortunately SF has milder weather, but NYC subway?  OMFG in the summer in a suit or even business cas...MARTA was pretty F'ing bad too because more stinky people ride the trains and busses in Atlanta than anywhere I think I've been)
The occasional derailment or crash (never happened to me); I can only imagine the difference between a crash you may have some control over at limited speeds in the comfort of your safe automobile (which is still often deadly), but standing, or even sitting IF you're fortunate, in a packed train during a derailment or crash with no seatbelts and hard plastic/metal/glass material all around you has to be far deadlier and worse overall

Basically, when it comes down to it, for commuting purposes only, sitting in a heated/AC car with all those luxury features, a stereo, etc = far superior to sweating it out in work clothes smushed in amongst strangers, STANDING, for often a good long while.  Though I still much prefer a "car free" lifestyle, I would like to be able to afford to have a car option for weekend trips (trains don't get me to Marin, Tahoe, Napa, Carmel, or other places that people go around here on the weekends...and train travel is smooth and comfortable, but road tripping in your own car with friends and music is usually even better.  Usually "car free" lifestyle is the result of the density/cost of the city...so try $400-$600/mo to park a car, or $80K+ just to buy a parking spot...or street parking in outlying neighbs, but you have to be conscious of street sweeper schedules (they will tow and then in a big city it's easily close to a $1,000 to get your car) AND you have to find a spot, which can very easily take a long time and yield a half mile + walk back.

So all in all, not having to own a car and take care of a car and pay for a car is nice, but usually it's a big trade off!

And as I've mentioned before, for those used to car free lifestyles and within walking distance of grocery and with small fridge anyway that can really only fit 1 bag of groceries, it's one thing.  But for those used to the car, the big fridge, less frequent trips, grocery carts, attendants who help load bags, etc...it's a BIG change to walk to grocery, and walk back and then up flights of stairs with bags...not that you'd be able to drive because no parking or $10 just to park.  Outside of the residents within 1 block of Publix in Riverside, I wonder how many people in Jax actually walk to get groceries.  Nothing like hauling 10-20 lbs of groceries by hand in THAT heat!  LoL

People just have to think twice about what they want and what trade offs they're truly willing to afford, because having a totally urban city with excellent transit is one thing, but having a 99% car oriented city that's merely trying to transition to urban is another...and my experience from Atlanta is that it just doesn't work well.  You're either car oriented, or you're urban, or you're LA or Miami which is undoubtedly a nightmare overall (dense AND car oriented, whoa).

[CityLife]

Train travel in Europe is cheaper than cars. Ever seen how much gas is? $9 a gallon in Italy, $8.50 in France and Germany, $8.40 in the UK. That is due to a multitude of factors, but certainly makes train travel a cheaper alternative at times...and you can't really compare Amtrak to Europe's systems which can provide much more reasonable costs due to scale, efficiency, and subsidy.

Depends on where you go and what you're doing. When I went to Ireland renting a car for the week was a lot cheaper than getting a rail pass, and we could go where we wanted. We also looked at rail passes in England and Wales but they weren't any cheaper than renting a car and again, didn't go everywhere we wanted.

Ireland is the size of South Carolina. Of course covering a small amount of land over a week makes it cheaper to rent a car instead of get a rail pass.

[Tony B]

I remember the very second I decided to move out of NYC and it was on the NYC Subway.  I was headed uptown on the 4-5-6 line and the power on the tracks went dead. I sat there on the dark motionless train car with 100+ strangers - the floor covered in winter slush filth - someone a few feet away hacking away with a cold - a baby screaming -  I thought to myself "this is no way for a grown man with a job to travel - this is third world at best - I want to drive to work in my own clean car - on my own schedule and not have to come in physical contact with strangers."

A month later I was out of NYC and living in JAX.  It's fun to go back an visit and as a visitor enjoy the novelty of using the subway system.  On a day to day basis. I love a nice clean car that is under my control and on my schedule.  There is no better way to travel in my opinion.

I'm convinced most people who love the idea of public transportation have never had to rely on it daily.

Funny, because all my friends from Jax/Florida in Chicago and New York love public transportation there and hate coming home and having to drive everywhere. My stepsister has lived in Paris for about 3 years and just spent a month back home and whined constantly about how terrible it was not being able to walk/bike/train everywhere.

[CityLife]

^Couldn't help but read this post as if it was narrated by DeNiro in Taxi Driver....

I'll admit that New York's Subways aren't the cleanest or most relaxing places on earth, but a car stuck in rush hour traffic in Jax or LA isn't exactly zen like. Some people like human interaction and some don't. I once had a drunk homeless guy masturbate across the seat from me in Europe and had to knock him out as he tried to walk towards me. I got a standing ovation from the people in my car and everyone laughed about it. It was a fun life experience....I've met a cool person next to me, seen an interesting break dance performance, or seen something beautiful outside the window twenty times for every negative that has happened on a train.

But really we aren't talking about creating or replicating New York's subway system here. More about creating a strong network of train travel around the US.

[Tacachale]

Train travel in Europe is cheaper than cars. Ever seen how much gas is? $9 a gallon in Italy, $8.50 in France and Germany, $8.40 in the UK. That is due to a multitude of factors, but certainly makes train travel a cheaper alternative at times...and you can't really compare Amtrak to Europe's systems which can provide much more reasonable costs due to scale, efficiency, and subsidy.

Depends on where you go and what you're doing. When I went to Ireland renting a car for the week was a lot cheaper than getting a rail pass, and we could go where we wanted. We also looked at rail passes in England and Wales but they weren't any cheaper than renting a car and again, didn't go everywhere we wanted.

Ireland is the size of South Carolina. Of course covering a small amount of land over a week makes it cheaper to rent a car instead of get a rail pass.

Yeah, I think trains are the way to go getting between the big cities and tourist attractions, but as far as getting around the countryside goes, I've never found them worthwhile on any of my trips. For me, I don't care to spend thousands of dollars on plane tickets just to spend more time commuting once I'm there, whatever vehicle it is.

[sonoandrea]

^Couldn't help but read this post as if it was narrated by DeNiro in Taxi Driver....

I'll admit that New York's Subways aren't the cleanest or most relaxing places on earth, but a car stuck in rush hour traffic in Jax or LA isn't exactly zen like. Some people like human interaction and some don't. I once had a drunk homeless guy masturbate across the seat from me in Europe and had to knock him out as he tried to walk towards me. I got a standing ovation from the people in my car and everyone laughed about it. It was a fun life experience....I've met a cool person next to me, seen an interesting break dance performance, or seen something beautiful outside the window twenty times for every negative that has happened on a train.

But really we aren't talking about creating or replicating New York's subway system here. More about creating a strong network of train travel around the US.

Sitting in a car in the worst rush hour traffic Jacksonville has to offer (except possibly when there is a fluke like a cargo ship hitting the Mathews Bridge) is zen-like compared regular rush hour traffic in LA, Atlanta, NYC, Boston, or even Raleigh (all based on personal experience)

[I-10east]

I remember the very second I decided to move out of NYC and it was on the NYC Subway.  I was headed uptown on the 4-5-6 line and the power on the tracks went dead. I sat there on the dark motionless train car with 100+ strangers - the floor covered in winter slush filth - someone a few feet away hacking away with a cold - a baby screaming -  I thought to myself "this is no way for a grown man with a job to travel - this is third world at best - I want to drive to work in my own clean car - on my own schedule and not have to come in physical contact with strangers."

A month later I was out of NYC and living in JAX.  It's fun to go back an visit and as a visitor enjoy the novelty of using the subway system.  On a day to day basis. I love a nice clean car that is under my control and on my schedule.  There is no better way to travel in my opinion.

+1000

I agree with everything that you said. I'm another one that left NYC for Jax (86'). Like you said, NY is cool to visit (just beware of the shystyness; pickpocketing, auto theft etc) but there's no way in hell I'd live there again. I wouldn't take back my childhood in Brooklyn for nothing though, great nostalgic times.

[CityLife]

^Well of course...I was simply making the point that sitting in rush hour traffic isn't relaxing either wherever you are.

[I-10east]

^^^IMO the "Maniac traffic in a parking lot for four hours" scenario (In any large American city) is highly overrated. The only way that I would agree with that if traffic was detoured because of a bad accident, or untimely bottlenecking construction which will cause a very significant delay. Don't get me wrong, I'm not all high and mighty not to hop on a train or bus if I have to.

[tufsu1]

No matter your thoughts on whether rail transit can work here in Jacksonville or if its even a good thing for intercity travel in the U.S., I encourage you to come out to Sun Ray on Tuesday evening.  The film itself is only an hour long and then we'll have a short discussion, which may be led by JTA staff.   

Folks, the event costs $10 and that gets you some popcorn and other goodies.  Plus, you can drink beer while watching the film!

[thelakelander]

Of course "rail" can work in Jacksonville.  There are several variations out there that are more suitable to various urban environments.  There's a reason AAF is considering a connection to Jax as their potential second phase. There's also a reason Amtrak has been dying to operate on the FEC from Jax to Miami.  It's because there is a market worth serving.

Anyway, why do Jaxsons feel compelled to compare cars to mass transit anytime the subject of another form of mobility pops up?  Is this an example of the siloing effect that's dragged our community down for so long?

Why can't we have it all?  Major cities with vibrant economic growth typically have reliable multimodal transportation networks.  It should never be an either or situation.  It's all about choice. Urban communities offering their residents true diversity provide environments where people aren't forced into any particular mode. 

If some don't want to get out of their vehicle, fine, no one is forcing anyone too.  However, that doesn't mean bicyclist and pedestrians should take their life into their own hands by deciding to get around without a car.  It also doesn't mean someone relying on mass transit should have to wait at bus stops without shelters or two hour trips to move from one side of town to the other.

[simms3]

^^^Lake I agree with you.  But it is funny now being on "the other side" to hear pro-transit folks speak as if it is a perfect situation that everyone should have.  "No stress", "options", "reliability", etc are all extremely overrated words used to describe alternative forms of transportation.

First of all no matter how many transit options there are in a city, the larger (and especially denser/geographically constrained) a city, the more vehicular traffic there will be.  The worst traffic I have ever seen is not even LA - it's NYC (Manhattan to be precise).

Second of all...if you aren't an obnoxiously oblivious tourist who's horrible at urban bike riding and bound to get creamed or honked at or cussed at, then you are a very aggressive, physically fit rider with some courage to be riding around NYC, SF, Chicago, or any other big city with crowded roads and aggressive drivers.  Novices (i.e. 99% of people) don't ride their bikes in these cities freely.

Third of all...options.  Yes, when there is a suicide, an incident, a labor strike, etc on a rail system...there is always the bus.  But if you have 500,000-8 million people riding the rails daily, I promise you your bus system can't handle the spillover traffic.

Cars + transit?  The bigger, denser, and more expensive a city, the less likely it is you are to afford/have a car...so this only works in suburbs and smaller cities, or with rich people.

Fourth - "reliability".  Anyone who's a transit rider can attest that there is no such thing with transit.  Atlanta was HORRIBLE, and SF is also pretty bad.  All of this goes hand in hand - how can you have a reliable transit system when it's shut down for a few days each month now for labor strikes (SF), or when hundreds of thousands of people (or even millions) are using each day and causing their own inadvertent delays (loading an empty train with max amount of people near the start of the line will cause a chain delay reaction that messes everyone's schedule up...and this happens daily).

Don't get me wrong on transit, I am a huge proponent, but now that I've been truly carless for a year (and enjoying it), I can speak from some experience on the minuses of transit because nobody on the "car side but wanting transit" ever seems to factor in pros AND cons.

If I were in Jax, I'd definitely go see the movie, if not for drinks and sociability.

[Scrub Palmetto]

When you travel to Jacksonville from Tampa by rail your first leg to Orlando/Sandford will be by bus. I see the "AMTRACK" labeled busses quite often.

That's if you take the Silver Meteor. The Silver Star travels between Tampa and Jacksonville (and beyond, of course.)

[thelakelander]

^^^Lake I agree with you.  But it is funny now being on "the other side" to hear pro-transit folks speak as if it is a perfect situation that everyone should have.  "No stress", "options", "reliability", etc are all extremely overrated words used to describe alternative forms of transportation.

First of all no matter how many transit options there are in a city, the larger (and especially denser/geographically constrained) a city, the more vehicular traffic there will be.  The worst traffic I have ever seen is not even LA - it's NYC (Manhattan to be precise).

Yes, I'll throw Chicago in as well.  Every time I've been in a car in Chicago, it seems like we've come to a standstill at some point. I typically focus on quality-of-life, mobility choice and economic redevelopment when promoting the benefits of investing in mass transit.  Traffic is a no go for me.  Whatever capacity you free up on a road will be sucked away by additional drivers as cities continue to expand outward. 

Second of all...if you aren't an obnoxiously oblivious tourist who's horrible at urban bike riding and bound to get creamed or honked at or cussed at, then you are a very aggressive, physically fit rider with some courage to be riding around NYC, SF, Chicago, or any other big city with crowded roads and aggressive drivers.  Novices (i.e. 99% of people) don't ride their bikes in these cities freely.

I personally know several "novices" who commute with their bikes or feet in cities like DC and Chicago.  Most tend to select neighborhoods to reside in that are close enough to their places of work, so using alternative forms of mobility becomes reasonable and financially feasible options.  For example, one friend who works for Smart Growth America in DC is pushing her husband to get rid of their car.  Evidently, they only use it once a week and if they didn't have it, they could lease out their Adams Morgan rowhouse's off-street parking space to neighbors for a couple of hundred/month.  However, I've also noticed that their urban environments offer a number of gridded streets, allowing cyclist to navigate without being forced mingle with motorized traffic on arterial streets.

Third of all...options.  Yes, when there is a suicide, an incident, a labor strike, etc on a rail system...there is always the bus.  But if you have 500,000-8 million people riding the rails daily, I promise you your bus system can't handle the spillover traffic.

When I mentioned options, I wasn't focusing on the case of a natural disaster or labor strike.  I was coming from the angle of one having multiple realistic mobility options at their disposal for a variety of trip characteristics.  Maybe because of a more compact setting, it becomes possible to walk a neighborhood restaurant or the cleaners instead having to hop on the interstate or help clog a six-lane highway.  For a commute, because you have a reliable transit corridor through your neighborhood, some days you may decide to take the bus/train instead of driving. Yet, if you "need" to drive a particular day, you have the option at your disposal. Anyway, I was thinking along those lines.

Fourth - "reliability".  Anyone who's a transit rider can attest that there is no such thing with transit.  Atlanta was HORRIBLE, and SF is also pretty bad.  All of this goes hand in hand - how can you have a reliable transit system when it's shut down for a few days each month now for labor strikes (SF), or when hundreds of thousands of people (or even millions) are using each day and causing their own inadvertent delays (loading an empty train with max amount of people near the start of the line will cause a chain delay reaction that messes everyone's schedule up...and this happens daily).

I don't believe every region's transit system regularly shuts down on a monthly basis for labor strikes. On the flip end, I'll say, I don't consider I-95 between the Avenues and Downtown or JTB from Southpoint to Jax Beach as reliable.  After commuting daily on both of these highways since 2003, there have been countless times a 15-20 minute commute ends up being a 45-60 minute trip, due to a fender bender.  Unfortunately, since there's no logical grid network of streets, you end up being stuck because taking the network of alternative goat's paths ends up taking just as long as sitting in the delay.

For reliability, I'll bring up Cleveland's Health Line BRT. No matter how one may feel about BRT it does a few things from an operational standpoint just as good as one driving their own two wheels.  Buses run 24/7 with headways as low as five minutes. The route runs in a straight line, down the middle of a major context sensitive arterial, with limited stops so it's pretty easy to use.  The stops also have shelters with real-time information.  Sometimes they do back up where they run in mixed traffic but if you were driving your own car, you're dealing with the same thing.  If you live within a 1/4 mile walk of this system, you have pretty efficient access to several areas of Cleveland. You also have direct connectivity with heavy rail and LRT systems, extending the transit reach to additional areas of the region.  In that sense, it's reliable.  You know that when you walk up to a station, a bus is going to arrive a certain time.  Thus, you have the opportunity to move into areas where you can position yourself to take easy advantage of that community's transit network.  Unfortunately, we can't really do that in Jacksonville.

Don't get me wrong on transit, I am a huge proponent, but now that I've been truly carless for a year (and enjoying it), I can speak from some experience on the minuses of transit because nobody on the "car side but wanting transit" ever seems to factor in pros AND cons.

Yes, when pushed and isolated into a corner, everything has its pros and cons.  However, when you have a well integrated multimodal transportation network at your disposal, you get to enjoy the pros of every mode because you have choice.

If I were in Jax, I'd definitely go see the movie, if not for drinks and sociability.

I'm planning to be there!