Mathews Bridge Breaking News

[tufsu1]

Would FDOT propose a replacement project be a toll bridge?

in theory yes....the FDOT Secreatary (who btw will be in Jax. tomorrow) has said that all new bridges and expressways will be tolled....but his first 2 attempts to implement that have failed....the new Pensacola Bay Bridge and US 331 bridge over Choctawhatchee Bay are rebuilds/widenings and both will remain free.

[Ocklawaha]

The Savannah River looks alot more narrow than the St John's at those respective bridge points. IMO it's no big deal with Dames Point Bridges Towers being out in the water. With most considerable bodies of water, towers are gonna be in the water esp non-suspension bridges. I wouldn't call Dames Points channel 'obstructed' by no means as it's nothing unique from many bridges. That's really some pathetic navigation skills if you miss that channel.

Is that based on your many years of experience in Logistics I-10?

And by "no big deal", what on earth do you mean?  To you?  To shippers?  To maritime planners?

Or are you just weighing in with an opinion from the diner?

This is really pretty funny isn't it. All I did was to post the facts about the Dames Point Bridge history, and the maritime firestorm it created, and suddenly (As usual) I'm somehow anti Jacksonville and posting opinion propaganda... Stephen you of all people had to know I'd respond to this with a few numbers LOL!

Let's look at the Savannah River? The channel is a uniform 500' feet wide virtually it's entire length.

East of the Dames Point, the Dames Point-Fulton Cutoff is 475' feet wide. The Blount Island Channel's are 300' wide.
The Dames Point Turn ranges from 875'-1,175' feet wide WEST of the bridge. The Dames Point-Fulton Cutoff ranges to 875' in width where the Blount Island Channels meet the main river channel. This entire turn pivots on the north tower with is IN THE WATER.

Funny thing about this is you are pretty much going to negotiate a 120 degree turn while swinging under that bridge. The bridge is only 169' above mean high water, but is actually 174' for a distance of 200' measured from the bridges centerline.

If your on that little Carnival 'boat', your dealing with a 855' foot long SHIP, with a 104' Beam (width) one with an air draft that barely clears the bridge in the exact center.

A Panamax Container Ship is 965' long, longer then the 875' turn and just shy of the 1,175' turn.

A Post Panamax Ship is 1,200' feet long, and 165' feet on the beam. "No big deal?" Why don't you ask the pilots association?

The even larger Triple E class will have similar lengths and widths BUT they will have 'U' shaped hull's rather then the current 'V' shape. The newer Malaccamax Ships WILL NOT EVER BE ABLE TO CALL IN JACKSONVILLE. This means the Post Panamax and Triple E Classes will be the 'local' collector-distributor ships of the near future. I want to stress again, this isn't a race with a completion date, the change will take place over the next 25 years. We still have time to act.

The Matthews?

I've always liked the idea of a tunnel, Florida has a nice one in Fort Lauderdale and of course Mobile has two great tunnels under the ship channel. Miami is getting a new one which is being completed, so perhaps Florida's unfamiliarity with these exotic devices will melt away and we could get some thought on the issue. Like the Chunnel it could be a simple cut, stabilize and fill type operation, with a modular tunnel lowered in pre finished sections. This is what would keep the cost down, but would it beat a bridge? We'd have to study it. And for GODS SAKE, if we do it, get it deep enough so that some future port work needing a 60 foot channel doesn't get tripped up on a damn tunnel 40 feet below.

If we ever got the density build out like South Florida, from our coast to our west side, I could see an eventual 2 lane tunnel at Mayport too. Makes one wonder what 20Th Street or 103rd would have looked like with this idea.

[I-10east]

^^^Has there ever been any maritime accident dealing with a large ship, and the DPB? All of sudden all of the bridges in Jax are on the verge of falling in the water, or doesn't meet DOT standards.

[Jason]

According to that wiki link Jason sent:

The project was temporarily cancelled in late 2008 due to the financial crisis but was resumed in 2009, with construction commencing in May 2010, and the tunnel is expected to open in May 2014.

So we're looking at about 5 years for a tunnel (if we started today). To do that they'd obviously still have to fix the bridge.

5 years is a long time for the Mathews bridge since she was being considered for replacement years ago. She's tired and needs to be REtired soon They ought to start looking at options now so we can have something completed in the next 10 years.

According to the information here http://www.portofmiamitunnel.com/faqs/tunnel-boring-machine/ the actual tunnel construction took about 2 years.  The other half of the effort has been the widening of the MacArthur Causeway and other upgrades at the port.

But I think you're right, start to finish we're probably looking at about 5 years...
http://www.portofmiamitunnel.com/system/js/back/ckfinder/userfiles/files/POMT%20Schedule-Web-Updated-9-2013.pdf

[ChriswUfGator]

A bridge is like anything else really, if budget is of no concern it can be maintained indefinitely. There is no shelf life on infrastructure like a bridge as long as it has proper maintenance, much of europe uses bridges built in the 18th and 19th centuries. Our problem of course is we spend as little as possible on maintenance until it can't be avoided any longer, and sometimes well beyond that point, e.g. the recent bridge collapses in Milwaukee and Washington state. Especially Milwaukee, that was a bridge so in need of maintenance it had been failing inspections for years but still wasn't fixed because nobody wanted to spend the money. Much of this country's infrastructure is in a sad state, but it's not due to some inherent expiration date, it's that we maintain it as cheaply as possible and prefer to suffer the consequences instead of spending the money. I guess that's probably a separate discussion, but the point is there's really no expiration date on a bridge, if metal is corroded or weakened from fatigue, you just replace that component and move on. Except I guess we don't do that, but are apparently willing to spend a billion dollars on a replacement.

[Non-RedNeck Westsider]

A bridge is like anything else really, if budget is of no concern it can be maintained indefinitely. There is no shelf life on infrastructure like a bridge as long as it has proper maintenance, much of europe uses bridges built in the 18th and 19th centuries. Our problem of course is we spend as little as possible on maintenance until it can't be avoided any longer, and sometimes well beyond that point, e.g. the recent bridge collapses in Milwaukee and Washington state. Especially Milwaukee, that was a bridge so in need of maintenance it had been failing inspections for years but still wasn't fixed because nobody wanted to spend the money. Much of this country's infrastructure is in a sad state, but it's not due to some inherent expiration date, it's that we maintain it as cheaply as possible and prefer to suffer the consequences instead of spending the money. I guess that's probably a separate discussion, but the point is there's really no expiration date on a bridge, if metal is corroded or weakened from fatigue, you just replace that component and move on. Except I guess we don't do that, but are apparently willing to spend a billion dollars on a replacement.

??

Why repair a bridge when you can spend $50MM on an unneeded flyover?  You know, in the name of development... 

[I-10east]

Much of this country's infrastructure is in a sad state, but it's not due to some inherent expiration date, it's that we maintain it as cheaply as possible and prefer to suffer the consequences instead of spending the money. I guess that's probably a separate discussion, but the point is there's really no expiration date on a bridge, if metal is corroded or weakened from fatigue, you just replace that component and move on.

+1000

[Ocklawaha]

A bridge is like anything else really, if budget is of no concern it can be maintained indefinitely. There is no shelf life on infrastructure like a bridge as long as it has proper maintenance, much of europe uses bridges built in the 18th and 19th centuries. Our problem of course is we spend as little as possible on maintenance until it can't be avoided any longer, and sometimes well beyond that point, e.g. the recent bridge collapses in Milwaukee and Washington state. Especially Milwaukee, that was a bridge so in need of maintenance it had been failing inspections for years but still wasn't fixed because nobody wanted to spend the money. Much of this country's infrastructure is in a sad state, but it's not due to some inherent expiration date, it's that we maintain it as cheaply as possible and prefer to suffer the consequences instead of spending the money. I guess that's probably a separate discussion, but the point is there's really no expiration date on a bridge, if metal is corroded or weakened from fatigue, you just replace that component and move on. Except I guess we don't do that, but are apparently willing to spend a billion dollars on a replacement.

Chris, don't know if you know but much of the infrastructure in the EU was built to MUCH higher standards. For example the entire British Rail system has the slightest gradient, most ballast, longest curves etc. This was done from the get go by British law. The only exceptions were the few specialty narrow gauge lines that served highland villages and quarries. Here's a couple of items on the Minnesota bridge collapse.

Another factor that is playing a big roll in the Dames Point, and maybe the Matthews and Hart, (due to elevation) is salt air from the ocean.

[/quote]Minneapolis' I-35 Bridge Collapse: Is Structural Failure or Metal Fatigue to Blame?
Design News Staff
8/2/2007 

Check in with our I-35W bridge collapse coverage page for the latest news, videos and photos covering the failure.
When the dust settles, will the bridge structure itself be to blame or was metal fatigue the true cause of the collapse?

Kenneth Russell, professor emeritus of metallurgy and nuclear engineering at MIT and Design News contributing editor, suspects metal fatigue could be a contributing factor based on a recent report from the University of Minnesota's Center for Transportation Studies. That report analyzed the metal fatigue behavior of the bridge.

"The report concluded that fatigue shouldn't have been a problem, but pointed out that the bridge was very near to the fatigue limit and had gone through many cycles," he says. Fatigue was analyzed visually, which Russell says could mean the analysis didn't go as far as it should have. "Fatigue is very hard to see visually, and you would need to use x-rays to be absolutely certain there wasn't any," he says. The conclusions section of the report didn't say anything about using an x-ray — just that nothing was found visually.
http://www.designnews.com/document.asp?doc_id=213834[/quote]

I'm more worried over the shock wave that traveled the length of that bridge, which will greatly effect the small fatigue cracks, bolt holes etc.

[spuwho]

A bridge is like anything else really, if budget is of no concern it can be maintained indefinitely. There is no shelf life on infrastructure like a bridge as long as it has proper maintenance, much of europe uses bridges built in the 18th and 19th centuries. Our problem of course is we spend as little as possible on maintenance until it can't be avoided any longer, and sometimes well beyond that point, e.g. the recent bridge collapses in Milwaukee and Washington state. Especially Milwaukee, that was a bridge so in need of maintenance it had been failing inspections for years but still wasn't fixed because nobody wanted to spend the money. Much of this country's infrastructure is in a sad state, but it's not due to some inherent expiration date, it's that we maintain it as cheaply as possible and prefer to suffer the consequences instead of spending the money. I guess that's probably a separate discussion, but the point is there's really no expiration date on a bridge, if metal is corroded or weakened from fatigue, you just replace that component and move on. Except I guess we don't do that, but are apparently willing to spend a billion dollars on a replacement.

Not to nitpick....bridge failure was in Minneapolis.

The Washington bridge fail was caused by a truck striking a structural beam. Yes, bridge was old, but it did not fail of its own means.

Some modern bridges are cheaper to maintain than ones built in the 50's or 60's.  Advances in material sciences, use of pre-stressed concrete, better designs. So it is possible that a bridge replacement could be cheaper than maintaining an old one.

Suspension bridges in New York, San Francisco, are in some of the harshest environments, temp swings, sea air, high traffic etc, but they hold up. Golden Gate participates in a perpetual paint job year round.

[ChriswUfGator]

As long as it's fully inspected with any fatigued or damaged components being replaced, there will be no problem with it. The issue of course is we generally don't care much about it until its too late. That report you cited from Milwaukee was an early one, later in the investigation they released the inspection reports and that bridge had been failing and having stress cracks noted for years, but they never fixed them. The problem wasn't that the bridge was old, it's that virtually no significant maintenance was done on it until it finally failed from corrosion and fatigue. Frankly what else did anybody expect? I think as time goes on, if our infrastructure keeps heading the way it's going, we're going to see a lot more of those incidents.

[tufsu1]

EXACTLY, this is WAY bigger then the local media or the DOT boys are letting on.

do you know something they don't?

Spoke with my bridge engineer friends at a social function tonight here in WGV. They've basically said it's going to be bid like next week and they are pushing for replacement and reopening within a couple of weeks. But when they saw what I wrote above, they all FULLY AGREED and added: 'They will HAVE TO REPLACE IT NOW for safety.' And... 'Expect a Cable-Stayed bridge with a clear center span.'

So maybe I do... We'll see!

Seems the engineers actually on site have determined that the damages aren't all that bad.  Max 40 day closure while repairs are made.  Repair cost less than $3 million.  Actual bid is for $1.1 million with a $500k bonus for finishing in time for FL/GA weekend.

Shame they didn't listen to the cocktail party experts, and spend a few hundred million.
http://www.news4jax.com/news/mathews-bridge-to-reopen-within-2-weeks/-/475880/22215488/-/a6fa05/-/index.html

[ChriswUfGator]

A bridge is like anything else really, if budget is of no concern it can be maintained indefinitely. There is no shelf life on infrastructure like a bridge as long as it has proper maintenance, much of europe uses bridges built in the 18th and 19th centuries. Our problem of course is we spend as little as possible on maintenance until it can't be avoided any longer, and sometimes well beyond that point, e.g. the recent bridge collapses in Milwaukee and Washington state. Especially Milwaukee, that was a bridge so in need of maintenance it had been failing inspections for years but still wasn't fixed because nobody wanted to spend the money. Much of this country's infrastructure is in a sad state, but it's not due to some inherent expiration date, it's that we maintain it as cheaply as possible and prefer to suffer the consequences instead of spending the money. I guess that's probably a separate discussion, but the point is there's really no expiration date on a bridge, if metal is corroded or weakened from fatigue, you just replace that component and move on. Except I guess we don't do that, but are apparently willing to spend a billion dollars on a replacement.

Not to nitpick....bridge failure was in Minneapolis.

The Washington bridge fail was caused by a truck striking a structural beam. Yes, bridge was old, but it did not fail of its own means.

Some modern bridges are cheaper to maintain than ones built in the 50's or 60's.  Advances in material sciences, use of pre-stressed concrete, better designs. So it is possible that a bridge replacement could be cheaper than maintaining an old one.

Suspension bridges in New York, San Francisco, are in some of the harshest environments, temp swings, sea air, high traffic etc, but they hold up. Golden Gate participates in a perpetual paint job year round.

My apologies, I think I said the correct city earlier and had an autocorrect issue on the last post, that or it's simply been a long day, I was aware the bridge collapse was in Minneapolis. But the Washington bridge is in fact a function of preventative maintenance, they should have incorporated changes in the superstructure to grant a higher clearance for modern vehicles, and the failure wouldn't have occurred. Back in the 50s/60s they wouldn't have given it a second thought.

[I-10east]

Suspension bridges in New York, San Francisco, are in some of the harshest environments, temp swings, sea air, high traffic etc, but they hold up. Golden Gate participates in a perpetual paint job year round.

So the bridges here in Jax doesn't 'hold up'? I know that the Brooklyn Bridge is an icon, but it isn't all flawless like many think.

[strider]

EXACTLY, this is WAY bigger then the local media or the DOT boys are letting on.

do you know something they don't?

Spoke with my bridge engineer friends at a social function tonight here in WGV. They've basically said it's going to be bid like next week and they are pushing for replacement and reopening within a couple of weeks. But when they saw what I wrote above, they all FULLY AGREED and added: 'They will HAVE TO REPLACE IT NOW for safety.' And... 'Expect a Cable-Stayed bridge with a clear center span.'

So maybe I do... We'll see!

Seems the engineers actually on site have determined that the damages aren't all that bad.  Max 40 day closure while repairs are made.  Repair cost less than $3 million.  Actual bid is for $1.1 million with a $500k bonus for finishing in time for FL/GA weekend.

Shame they didn't listen to the cocktail party experts, and spend a few hundred million.
http://www.news4jax.com/news/mathews-bridge-to-reopen-within-2-weeks/-/475880/22215488/-/a6fa05/-/index.html

Seems like you left this little line out:

Temporary repairs for the Mathews Bridge will begin Wednesday and be completed in about a month, the Florida Department of Transportation announced Tuesday

.


Temporary repairs meaning something much more involved must be needed but hey,  the need for moving traffic is so great that they will temporarily fix it and hope for the best?

Final repairs apparently have yet to be, well, finalized.

The problem is the bridge created Arlington and so it's loss causes huge problems with moving people from a to b.  They can't allow that no matter what.  Bad for business, bad politically and so temporary it is.  Let's just hope fate doesn't have some other incident in store for that bridge and us.

[John P]

I am already tired of the bridge news 24-7 coverage