SPAR revolt?

[fatcat]

right...and Bagrin agrees it is has merit for buildings, but not for people. 

sorry. i am a little lost here. "broken window theory" applies to people?

[strider]

Zoo -

Yes, I agree and it is great when applied to structures and a physcial location like a block in a neighborhood.  But you didn't quote this part of my post:

  However, SRG's management and SPAR Council seem to apply it to people.  Those they consider undesirable, whether they be people or businesses, become the broken window and to fix it, you simple get them out of the community.  If you don't, more of the undesirables will come, if you get rid of them, then the "building" will be pretty again.

When applied to people and businesses, it is just plain wrong and determental to the community.  The definition you posted didn't say anything about applying it to eliminate various social economic classes from a neighborhood, did it?

To answer how it can be applied to people, just look at the recent issue over 2007-1046 inolving SF per person for special uses.  Special uses are facilites like half way houses for addiction issues, assisted living facilites and rooming houses.  What is the most likely social economic class that needs and uses that type of facility?  Mack and SRG - remember they hired Alberta Hipps as a paid lobbyist - stated for the record that these types of facilites breed crime - though no proof of that exists - and so these facilities should not be in Sprinfgield.  These facilites and the people who use them become the "broken window" and the "fix" is to move them out of the neighborhood. The feeling was that if these "special uses" were gone, then the crime is gone too.  And the real median income goes up so you can tell perspective business owners how great Springfield is. So, you can also see how someone could apply the broken window theory to an income level within Springfield.  Get rid of low income residents and you can more easily "fix" the commercial development inside of the historic district. This is how Mack thinks - based on my conversations with him.

[Driven1]

even if SPAR WERE "revolting", do you know how BORING that would be?    maybe revolt is too strong of a word.  revolt is Che Gueverra-style or Bay of Pigs-style. 

[fatcat]

strider I disagree with you about using the SF as an example of broken window applies to people. The Sf required is the same as every one else .

[alta]

I live in Springfield.  I haven't seen any specific statistics on rooming or halfway houses.  I just recently moved here.  From what I have observed the rooming houses are much more of a problem than halfway houses.  The last one in my area was shut down right before I moved in.  From what my neighbors told me it was crime infested.  Constant police and drug activity.  It is being restored into a single family residence.   

[zoo]

However, SRG's management and SPAR Council seem to apply it to people.  Those they consider undesirable, whether they be people or businesses, become the broken window and to fix it, you simple get them out of the community.  If you don't, more of the undesirables will come, if you get rid of them, then the "building" will be pretty again.

Strider, I think the key word in this part of the quote is "seem". I can't speak for anyone but myself here, but I don't care if the person living next to me makes $40k less annually, or $40k more annually. Economics alone do not make someone "undesirable" to me (again, not speaking for anyone else). However, if either one of those neighbors is dumping garbage in their yard, allowing their home to crumble to the ground, or selling drugs/sex from their front porch, then I do find them undesirable. I think that is the only way "broken window theory" can be applied to people -- through these types of behaviors that are proven to attract more of the same and affect the safety of a neighborhood.

With regard to economics, it costs nothing to put garbage where it belongs. Painting a house, fixing a porch or replacing a window is a bit tougher, and I don't think anyone has figured out how to solve this. (If any posters out there have the answer to how to financially help everyone who wants to fix their house but can't, please post it!) I don't buy that selling drugs/sex is the only way to afford it, and people that do this are thus forced into this choice.

If you're looking for a local scapegoat for what are much larger social issues, then I guess SRG and SPAR are the logical choices as they have the highest public profile. But I would suggest these issues were here, and in other urban neighborhoods around the country, long before SRG and SPAR showed up. SRG and SPAR "seem" to me to be applying broken window theory to structures, streetscapes and their own lots to improve the safety and appeal of the area for everyone in it.

That's just how I see it, and you're free to disagree...

[zoo]

Now, deviations from the young yuppie uppermiddleclass norm are indications of a 'broken window', and must be discouraged at all costs.

This is the perception out there in the community, and doesnt reflect at all upon the excellent advice implied in the original broken window theory.

Stephen, I wholeheartedly disagree that "deviations from the young yuppie uppermiddleclass norm are indications of a 'broken window'" and that "this is the perception out there in the community." If that were the case, would Ian of Shanty have had such great things to say about SRG, SPAR or Springfield's residents?

I haven't seen or heard evidence from any of my neighbors that if someone isn't young yuppie uppermiddleclass they are undesirable or a broken window. In discussions of who has been here, who is here, or who is coming here, there is appreciation for a diverse population. I'm not sure why you seem to be experiencing something other than that.

Bottom line is, if everyone were applying broken window theory to structures, streetscapes and lots, this community would be a lot cleaner and safer.

[strider]

Zoo,

I appreciate your stance on the Broken Window Theory.  I have just seen it applied to both a class of people and various businesses by some of the people involved with SPAR Council and SRG.  Perhaps I was trying to be a little too PC with the "seems"  - it wasn’t just that it seemed like, it was.  I am not looking for a local scapegoat and resent that implication.  It was and is what is happening.  Again, not all the residents or members of SPAR Council share this belief.  Many are truly trying to do the right thing and working hard to make a better community for everyone.  It is just easy to get caught up in the "fight" sometimes and do and say the wrong things.

Anytime someone says a group of people "breeds crime - if they weren't here, the crime wouldn't be either" not only are they very naive, but they are applying the broken window theory to that group of people in that they are not considering the individuals, but lumping them all together and the fix for the community is to get rid of them all.  Unlike when you just fix a window, getting rid of the group of people you may not like doesn’t really fix anything.  It makes things worse.  You say you can not see that in this community?  Hopefully it is because it simply is not how you believe, but as it has been applied to me, I have no choice but to see it.

As to Mack and SRG, he - they are just doing what they are supposed to be doing - doing their best to make money off of Springfield.  The point is, what is best for him is most likely not the best for the community as a whole in the long term.

Alta,

Just the name "rooming house" means crime infested to some.  I have heard places called crime infested with one police call in years and I know some are truely crime infested - or were as most have been closed through the years.  A properly run rooming house can be a positive unless you don't like that social economic class of people in your community at all.  Halfway houses are better in that they have better supervision.  There were legitimate issues raised in the recent discussions and most of the halfway houses have done their best to address these issues.  Eliminating the legally licensed places would do nothing but insure illegal places take their place.

Joe

[zoo]

No the banners still flap in the wind on their broken arms waving over the dead plants in the median near the dead trees that line the street and the new razor wire that tops the fence near the corner of 1st and Main.  Trash still lines main street and the JTA still hasn't put a can in at the 2nd and main stop.  Saw a half eaten bag of chicken wings on the street there today along with a lovely shopping cart.  The way I see it if these little things can't be properly handled by SPAR then the big stuff is probably going to be FUBAR.   Overgrown lots and demolition by neglect, yeah can't really say things have gotten much better since the merge.

Here are some more details in the interest of all being informed...

Springfield residents (I think some who were involved with SPAR?) worked with the COJ on the neighborhood-driven design that incorporated historic lightpoles with banner arms in the updated commercial corridors.
SRG paid for, and continues to pay for, the production and installation of banners that are put on those light poles. This isn't cheap, and along with landscape maintenance, should be the responsibility of the COJ, not SRG or SPAR.

Bus stops, including the historic ones on "new" Main and 8th and the non-historic ones on other roads, are the responsibility of the JTA. SPAR has a positive working relationship with JTA, but govt bureaucracy is SLOW! I know for a fact that SPAR issued a request to JTA to remove the stop across from Premier (right after it closed) altogether. I believe JTA's response has been to conduct a survey of all of the bus stops in the area, and assess future transportation plans' needs for the stops.

SPAR and SRG spent months working with JTA to get a trolley (vehicles like ones that run downtown) route in Springfield, which is projected to start in Fall 2009 (because bureaucracy is slow). And btw, JTA's willingness to listen to Springfield at all began when SPAR presented them with the results of the community surveys/studies that some are so offended by. We may not like it, but data is what municipal and commercial interests use in decision making. To some extent, complaining works too, but unlike data, it isn't irrefutable.

SRG has paid for neighborhood cleanup since 2006. That year SRG paid for pickup 6 days per week on 1st-12th Sts. In 2007, they had to cut back to 2 days/week on Thursdays on the West side and Fridays on the East side (note these are the days after COJ trash pickup b/c city workers strew garbage all over the place as part of their "process").

SPAR, SRG and David Williams of the Ark have also worked with the Sheriff's office to get an inmate pickup crew to come and do cleanup of big piles on Mondays.

SPAR has worked with COJ to get semi-regular visits from street-sweeping crews. I'm sure some don't like street-sweeping, but imho it does make the community seem better maintained.

SPAR has been in contact with property owners who are allowing their properties to be demolished by neglect, but cannot legally force them to do anything. Only COJ code enforcement can attempt to force negligent property owners to do something, and they are. I think this is why some renovation is still being done in these very tight economic conditions. This applies to overgrown lots, as well.

Shopping carts are the responsibility of the stores that offer them for customer use. In SRG's early days in the neighborhood, they paid for pickup and disposal of thousands of carts. SPAR is building relationships with Winn-Dixie and other local commercial entities regarding this and other issues.

I think some responsibilities have been assigned to SPAR that should not be (why isn't every resident/owner responsible for THEIR OWN homes, lots, trash, etc?), and SRG has improved the community through significant non-builder expenses. SRG is not Springfield's bank account, and I am grateful that a developer is willing to spend these dollars for the benefit of the ENTIRE community (although I've no doubt cleanliness has a positive sales affect, as well). To the extent they can, I believe SPAR, SRG, SAMBA, SIAWC, SACARC, Mommies Group, Wine Society and all of the other Springfield organizations (I didn't miss any intentionally) are "being the change they want to see", and in many cases pressuring municipal agencies to step in where it's COJ responsibility.

I don't want to offend -- and I tried like hell to figure out a way to put this without sounding righteous -- but everyone with any level of interest in Springfield should do less "vocalizing the change we want to see" and more "being the change we want to see," and this community will only get better.

[uptowngirl]

No the banners still flap in the wind on their broken arms waving over the dead plants in the median near the dead trees that line the street and the new razor wire that tops the fence near the corner of 1st and Main.  Trash still lines main street and the JTA still hasn't put a can in at the 2nd and main stop.  Saw a half eaten bag of chicken wings on the street there today along with a lovely shopping cart.  The way I see it if these little things can't be properly handled by SPAR then the big stuff is probably going to be FUBAR.   Overgrown lots and demolition by neglect, yeah can't really say things have gotten much better since the merge.

Here are some more details in the interest of all being informed...

Springfield residents (I think some who were involved with SPAR?) worked with the COJ on the neighborhood-driven design that incorporated historic lightpoles with banner arms in the updated commercial corridors.
SRG paid for, and continues to pay for, the production and installation of banners that are put on those light poles. This isn't cheap, and along with landscape maintenance, should be the responsibility of the COJ, not SRG or SPAR.


Agree, but why is Springfields in such terrible condition while other areas are just fine?


Bus stops, including the historic ones on "new" Main and 8th and the non-historic ones on other roads, are the responsibility of the JTA. SPAR has a positive working relationship with JTA, but govt bureaucracy is SLOW! I know for a fact that SPAR issued a request to JTA to remove the stop across from Premier (right after it closed) altogether. I believe JTA's response has been to conduct a survey of all of the bus stops in the area, and assess future transportation plans' needs for the stops.

It does not take much study to understand these two bus stops (not just one) are used ONLY for drinking and drugs


SPAR and SRG spent months working with JTA to get a trolley (vehicles like ones that run downtown) route in Springfield, which is projected to start in Fall 2009 (because bureaucracy is slow). And btw, JTA's willingness to listen to Springfield at all began when SPAR presented them with the results of the community surveys/studies that some are so offended by. We may not like it, but data is what municipal and commercial interests use in decision making. To some extent, complaining works too, but unlike data, it isn't irrefutable.

Why would my income mean anything in regards to getting trolly service?


SRG has paid for neighborhood cleanup since 2006. That year SRG paid for pickup 6 days per week on 1st-12th Sts. In 2007, they had to cut back to 2 days/week on Thursdays on the West side and Fridays on the East side (note these are the days after COJ trash pickup b/c city workers strew garbage all over the place as part of their "process").

I don't get this? SRG is paying the city to pick up garbage all over the nieghborhood? Please explain more, I and I am sure others were not aware we had an extra garbage day....I have not seen that at my home

SPAR, SRG and David Williams of the Ark have also worked with the Sheriff's office to get an inmate pickup crew to come and do cleanup of big piles on Mondays.

I have seen this and it is awesome, I was not aware SRG did this though-good job!


SPAR has worked with COJ to get semi-regular visits from street-sweeping crews. I'm sure some don't like street-sweeping, but imho it does make the community seem better maintained.

This is still a HUGE failure. The street sweepers are hit or miss, you may see them twice in one week and not again for six months. There is no schedule so people can not move their cars in preperation so it is almost a waste of time. Perhaps the "schedule" is one specific area of the neighborhood but it is not happening here. I would also like to see some normal mosquito control, this also does not happen unless we request it. This is the first southern city I have lived in that does not have a standard mosquito control program

SPAR has been in contact with property owners who are allowing their properties to be demolished by neglect, but cannot legally force them to do anything. Only COJ code enforcement can attempt to force negligent property owners to do something, and they are. I think this is why some renovation is still being done in these very tight economic conditions. This applies to overgrown lots, as well.

House next door to mine is falling down and you can not walk down the sidewalk as the yard is so overgrown. There has been a sign up for months but nothing. The vacant lot behind me is not much better. I have not seen a lot of progress on this front, except when residents that actually care get ticketed for putting their trash cans out before 5PM

Shopping carts are the responsibility of the stores that offer them for customer use. In SRG's early days in the neighborhood, they paid for pickup and disposal of thousands of carts. SPAR is building relationships with Winn-Dixie and other local commercial entities regarding this and other issues.

SRG has done a lot around the shopping cart issue. They have done WAY more than should have ever been expected of them. The failure here is with the stores (owners of carts) and JSO (who will not arrest or ticket people for theft)

I think some responsibilities have been assigned to SPAR that should not be (why isn't every resident/owner responsible for THEIR OWN homes, lots, trash, etc?), and SRG has improved the community through significant non-builder expenses. SRG is not Springfield's bank account, and I am grateful that a developer is willing to spend these dollars for the benefit of the ENTIRE community (although I've no doubt cleanliness has a positive sales affect, as well). To the extent they can, I believe SPAR, SRG, SAMBA, SIAWC, SACARC, Mommies Group, Wine Society and all of the other Springfield organizations (I didn't miss any intentionally) are "being the change they want to see", and in many cases pressuring municipal agencies to step in where it's COJ responsibility.

I agree that SRG has done a lot for the neighborhood. My only issue is the neighborhood (or SPAR) is not SRG's bank account either. If the neighborhood does not feel they should fund private security then that should be that. This is the only complaint I have, because I truly believe SRG does a LOT for this neighborhood

I don't want to offend -- and I tried like hell to figure out a way to put this without sounding righteous -- but everyone with any level of interest in Springfield should do less "vocalizing the change we want to see" and more "being the change we want to see," and this community will only get better.

I agree with this too, but the personalities need to work together. I know plenty of people who have tried and been rebuffed as they were "not part of the crowd" or did not "just go along". This is a serious issue, it goes both ways.

Just my 2 cents

[zoo]

Quote:
"No the banners still flap in the wind on their broken arms waving over the dead plants in the median near the dead trees that line the street and the new razor wire that tops the fence near the corner of 1st and Main.  Trash still lines main street and the JTA still hasn't put a can in at the 2nd and main stop.  Saw a half eaten bag of chicken wings on the street there today along with a lovely shopping cart.  The way I see it if these little things can't be properly handled by SPAR then the big stuff is probably going to be FUBAR.   Overgrown lots and demolition by neglect, yeah can't really say things have gotten much better since the merge."

Here are some more details in the interest of all being informed...

Springfield residents (I think some who were involved with SPAR?) worked with the COJ on the neighborhood-driven design that incorporated historic lightpoles with banner arms in the updated commercial corridors.
SRG paid for, and continues to pay for, the production and installation of banners that are put on those light poles. This isn't cheap, and along with landscape maintenance, should be the responsibility of the COJ, not SRG or SPAR.


Agree, but why is Springfields in such terrible condition while other areas are just fine?

This is a City issue. The COJ is, apparently, in somewhat of a fiscal crisis with the property tax rollback vote early this year (that Gov Christ felt should be applied statewide), the expense of the Journey program, infrastructure maintenance expenses, and on, and on, and on... I don't validate or invalidate these claims, but keep in mind Springfield didn't historically have a very good city-tax payment record, and that is changing. Like you, I don't think it's too much to ask COJ that more of the increase in tax revenue from Springfield be spent in our neighborhood (and I can testify that SPAR is asking). But govt is slow and traditionally affected by self-interest.


Bus stops, including the historic ones on "new" Main and 8th and the non-historic ones on other roads, are the responsibility of the JTA. SPAR has a positive working relationship with JTA, but govt bureaucracy is SLOW! I know for a fact that SPAR issued a request to JTA to remove the stop across from Premier (right after it closed) altogether. I believe JTA's response has been to conduct a survey of all of the bus stops in the area, and assess future transportation plans' needs for the stops.

It does not take much study to understand these two bus stops (not just one) are used ONLY for drinking and drugs

Totally agree. Govt is slow. Go take pictures -- it might scare the perpetrators off, and they can be used in the study  .

SPAR and SRG spent months working with JTA to get a trolley (vehicles like ones that run downtown) route in Springfield, which is projected to start in Fall 2009 (because bureaucracy is slow). And btw, JTA's willingness to listen to Springfield at all began when SPAR presented them with the results of the community surveys/studies that some are so offended by. We may not like it, but data is what municipal and commercial interests use in decision making. To some extent, complaining works too, but unlike data, it isn't irrefutable.

Why would my income mean anything in regards to getting trolly service?

Because income brings retail, and retail brings city revenue, and city revenue pays for Trolley service. The chicken/egg side of this equation is that Trolley brings retail!

SRG has paid for neighborhood cleanup since 2006. That year SRG paid for pickup 6 days per week on 1st-12th Sts. In 2007, they had to cut back to 2 days/week on Thursdays on the West side and Fridays on the East side (note these are the days after COJ trash pickup b/c city workers strew garbage all over the place as part of their "process").

I don't get this? SRG is paying the city to pick up garbage all over the nieghborhood? Please explain more, I and I am sure others were not aware we had an extra garbage day....I have not seen that at my home

SRG does not pay the City for the provision of an extra city trash receptacle pick-up day. SRG pays and manages David Williams/The Ark (229-5490) and his team for the Springfield Litter Patrol. He and his team do a great job (much more diligent and prideful of the work they do than COJ workers), and I hope you have seen his green Ark truck and his team of guys usually wearing yellow vests. If you haven't seen them, look harder. If you do see them, say "Hi" and "Thanks"

SPAR, SRG and David Williams of the Ark have also worked with the Sheriff's office to get an inmate pickup crew to come and do cleanup of big piles on Mondays.

I have seen this and it is awesome, I was not aware SRG did this though-good job!


SPAR has worked with COJ to get semi-regular visits from street-sweeping crews. I'm sure some don't like street-sweeping, but imho it does make the community seem better maintained.

This is still a HUGE failure. The street sweepers are hit or miss, you may see them twice in one week and not again for six months. There is no schedule so people can not move their cars in preperation so it is almost a waste of time. Perhaps the "schedule" is one specific area of the neighborhood but it is not happening here. I would also like to see some normal mosquito control, this also does not happen unless we request it. This is the first southern city I have lived in that does not have a standard mosquito control program

I somewhat agree on this one, as well. The street-sweeping program is not consistent and mosquito program would be appreciated. But I disagree that some street-sweeping is no better than no street-sweeping. Conversations have been had b/w SPAR and some Neighborhoods dept workers regarding scheduling regular street-sweeping. At this time, I'm guessing 3 things are preventing this from happening:
1. COJ budgets required to do it consistently
2. The speed of govt
3. The hell some residents would raise about having to move their cars from one side of a street to the other or be ticketed. Without the ticketing/forced-moving component, regular street-sweeping won't be any more effective than some street-sweeping.


SPAR has been in contact with property owners who are allowing their properties to be demolished by neglect, but cannot legally force them to do anything. Only COJ code enforcement can attempt to force negligent property owners to do something, and they are. I think this is why some renovation is still being done in these very tight economic conditions. This applies to overgrown lots, as well.

House next door to mine is falling down and you can not walk down the sidewalk as the yard is so overgrown. There has been a sign up for months but nothing. The vacant lot behind me is not much better. I have not seen a lot of progress on this front, except when residents that actually care get ticketed for putting their trash cans out before 5PM

It is a bummer that you are not seeing it working right by you. But this is a speed of govt issue -- they have to go through all of the processes required by City law to ensure the owners have had more than enough opportunity and ability to comply. I'd bet SPAR has contacted the owner of the properties, as they have a letter drive to negligent owners once/year (funding and personnel resources probably prohibit greater frequency -- maybe building a relationship with SPAR through volunteering with this would suit your interests?) Or, if you haven't already, you can always try to work it out with the owners yourself.

Shopping carts are the responsibility of the stores that offer them for customer use. In SRG's early days in the neighborhood, they paid for pickup and disposal of thousands of carts. SPAR is building relationships with Winn-Dixie and other local commercial entities regarding this and other issues.

SRG has done a lot around the shopping cart issue. They have done WAY more than should have ever been expected of them. The failure here is with the stores (owners of carts) and JSO (who will not arrest or ticket people for theft)

I think some responsibilities have been assigned to SPAR that should not be (why isn't every resident/owner responsible for THEIR OWN homes, lots, trash, etc?), and SRG has improved the community through significant non-builder expenses. SRG is not Springfield's bank account, and I am grateful that a developer is willing to spend these dollars for the benefit of the ENTIRE community (although I've no doubt cleanliness has a positive sales affect, as well). To the extent they can, I believe SPAR, SRG, SAMBA, SIAWC, SACARC, Mommies Group, Wine Society and all of the other Springfield organizations (I didn't miss any intentionally) are "being the change they want to see", and in many cases pressuring municipal agencies to step in where it's COJ responsibility.

I agree that SRG has done a lot for the neighborhood. My only issue is the neighborhood (or SPAR) is not SRG's bank account either. If the neighborhood does not feel they should fund private security then that should be that. This is the only complaint I have, because I truly believe SRG does a LOT for this neighborhood

SRG has contributed $50,000 to SPAR this year alone, has put more than $100,000 (not including personnel time) into SPAR's security fund, has paid more than $150,000 for the Litter Patrol, helped to fund the LISC/MetroEdge study with other area developers that led to a partnership with LISC and THEIR contribution of $50,000 to SPAR, gave $10,000 for the Klutho Park fountain restoration, has consistently sponsored (financially) various community organizations' events, and went way on a limb to build 4 over-the-top (cost-wise) spec homes for the Symphony Showhouse to show non-Springfielders who would venture into the community that it had changed for the better (don't know what the build cost was, but the PR cost for that event exceeded $25,000, which of course helped SRG, too). This is only a glimpse at SRG's financial expenses on behalf of THE NEIGHBORHOOD.

SPAR and SRG also researched, went to Tallahassee and pushed the Community Contribution Tax Credit program through council so SPAR could more easily attract charitable donations from private corporate and foundation donors in and near Springfield (let's get some donations from some of the companies downtown!)

Funds raised through this program HAVE to go to SPAR's 3 approved projects, which include: Residential Safety & Security, Commercial Corridor Revitalization, and Hogan's Creek Parks Improvements. BUT... money has to be donated (by outside private donors, we hope), before SPAR can start spending it. SPAR needs help fundraising, and maybe volunteering in this effort would resonate with some residents?

SRG does not, and I think it can not, use SPAR funds per laws governing 501(c)3s. Imho, if all SRG cared about was the realization of business profit in Springfield, it's employees and principals would be living somewhere cleaner, safer, and certainly not as critical of more than $1/2 million dollars worth of community investment.

I don't want to offend -- and I tried like hell to figure out a way to put this without sounding righteous -- but everyone with any level of interest in Springfield should do less "vocalizing the change we want to see" and more "being the change we want to see," and this community will only get better.

I agree with this too, but the personalities need to work together. I know plenty of people who have tried and been rebuffed as they were "not part of the crowd" or did not "just go along". This is a serious issue, it goes both ways.

At the risk of sounding all Cum-by-ya (and with shame at having to quote any politician), build bridges people, not walls!

[zoo]

Stephen, seems "perception is reality" really applies here. If a wall is perceived, then there is a wall.

I don't speak for SPAR, but I would guess that anyone wanting to "scale" some perceived wall would be welcomed as a volunteer with negligent property owner letter drives, or the Comm Cont Tax Credit program fundraising drive (which should get revved up soon). May not seem like the most exciting way to make a difference, but it would help!

Cum-by-ya;)

[soxfan]

zoo.

the organization needs a new direction.

It just does.

WOW!!!  I believe that is the weakest argument I've ever read from you!!! You are usually so eloquent with big words I need to look up in a dictionary to understand. All you come back with is that?? I guess this debate is over... Zoo-Winner   Stephen- Loser

[strider]

Just a quick note here:  While I'm sure the avid supporters of SPAR Council and SRG truly believe all that money donated to SPAR Council by SRG and it's principles was just because they are concerned, nice people.  It couldn't possibly have anything to do with having their way in Springfield, controling a community organization or influencing the city and other organizations like LISC.  And this influence they gain wouldn't just be to help further their own goals - mostly a community that is developed to their standards and desires, regarless of what the majority in the community may want.  Of course some of what they want coincides with what is good for the community, but rarely will it be what is best for the entire community in the long term.  What has been posted in earlier posts about 50K donated to SPAR Council by a developer - if SRG had given that to a city council person, a lynch mob would be forming even as we speak.  Having a developer give money when it is not forced to and being that involved in the politics of the community should be raising red flags, not getting you all fuzzy eyed and speaking out saying how great they are.  Free help is seldom free.  This great help of SRG's is about as far from free as you can get. This thread is about the issues with SPAR Council.  This is but one of them, though perhaps the biggest one.   Perhaps to resolve these issues and put an end to discussions like this, all they have to do is rename the organization - SRG Council might fit.

[uptowngirl]

"SRG does not, and I think it can not, use SPAR funds per laws governing 501(c)3s. Imho, if all SRG cared about was the realization of business profit in Springfield, it's employees and principals would be living somewhere cleaner, safer, and certainly not as critical of more than $1/2 million dollars worth of community investment. "

Zoo, this makes it sound like Springfield is a filthy, crime ridden, worthless place to live. Do you live in Springfield? Do you work for SRG?

I am not sure if anyone could downplay what SRG has done for the neighborhood. As I myself have posted SRG has done a LOT.

The thing here is not what SRG has or has not done for the neighborhood; it is the fact that NO individual or builder, or business should be deciding the future of the neighborhood. The neighborhood should be deciding this. While many separate groups, individuals, and or businesses have invested time and money in the neighborhood, not one should be allowed anymore persuasion or 'rights" then the other. This is a group effort, and as such everyone’s options should be taken into account. Everyone should get a say in the future of our neighborhood, how money and time is spent within our neighborhood organization. If one is allowed to talk at meetings all should be allowed, or if the rules state no one talks but board members then only board members talk. It is not a “gift” for praise if it is really a purchase of power.

Unless you feel otherwise?