Meditations on Liberal/Conservative politics in Urban Sprawl

[Jameson]

50 years of Democrats=Detroit

70 years of suburban sprawl, with wealthy and middle class people moving out of the taxation zone so that they can enjoy the benefits without any of the responsibilities equals both democratic rule and detroit's present situation.

People who want to pay lower taxes but at the same time enjoy some of the benefits are irresponsible? If that's the case, what do we label the people who pay zero taxes but at the same time enjoy the benefits?

Suburban sprawl happened all over America, not just Detroit. What other cities are in a comparable dire financial situation right now / heading down the same path?

[Jameson]

50 years of Democrats=Detroit

70 years of suburban sprawl, with wealthy and middle class people moving out of the taxation zone so that they can enjoy the benefits without any of the responsibilities equals both democratic rule and detroit's present situation.

People who want to pay lower taxes but at the same time enjoy some of the benefits are irresponsible? If that's the case, what do we label the people who pay zero taxes but at the same time enjoy the benefits?

Suburban sprawl happened all over America, not just Detroit. What other cities are in a comparable dire financial situation right now / heading down the same path?

Jameson, read the thread.  It happened all over the country, including here in Jacksonville.  Thats one of the reasons you have this conversation about Pensions going on all over the US.

I am caught up on the thread, Stephen. Thanks.

[NotNow]

I don't know that it is all about taxes & crappy, ineffiecient government.  Here in Jax it seemed to be about schools in many cases.  First to the burbs (still Jax), then when Duval county schools became intolerable everywhere, to the surrounding counties.  Private schools are a booming business in Jax.  But most folks just move to St. Johns or one of the other surrounding school districts so that their kids can go to a decent school.

And of course I always take anything Paul Krugman says with a grain of salt.

[bill]

I don't know of any of my colleagues at work who live in St. Johns or Clay county that pay for my water, sewer or road work.  I could be mistaken, but I don't believe that I am.

do those same colleagues drive on roads in Duval County to get to/from work?  Do they use the water fountain at work?  Do they flush the toilet or wash their hands?

water would be included in the rent that their company pays to the landlord who probably pays property taxes to the city as well as a utility bill.

So in other words, someone else pays for it.

Sprawl and now stealing(gasp) water. But nothing to do with 50 years of liberal democrats?

I know it is tough to defend your agendas but even for you this is moronic. 

[BrooklynSouth]

I would be interested to hear about how the school system has factored into Detroit's issues. It certainly has played a role in the loss of some of Jacksonville's middle class to St. Johns County and Fleming Island.

Speaking of which,  I was recently at a wedding in Chicago and got to talk to a lot of locals in their late twenties/early thirties. From what they tell me, the school system is a disaster there and if your kids don't get into one of the few decent schools or if you aren't wealthy enough to send them to private school, you practically have no choice but to consider the burbs (these weren't white yuppies telling me this either). Chicago has a solid public transportation system, great neighborhoods, interesting public spaces, great bars/restaurants/nightlife in the city, so it is very desirable to live in. There are a lot of college students, young people, creatives, young professionals, old and new money that can live there with no worry about the school system. So for now Chicago is fine. However, for those that have kids its a tough decision. Do you pay extra to send your kids to private school (if that is even a financial option)? Do you sacrifice your child's future so that your commute isn't as bad and you have a more interesting social life? Or do you bite the bullet and move to the burbs?

The root question though is how does a school system get so bad and how much does a poor school system contribute to a city's decline? Or is a city's declining school system simply a result of its overall health? Chicago apparently has some serious pension issues of its own that they will be dealing with shortly. Will be interesting if it can continue providing a high quality of life to its residents, despite an apparently awful school system.

This happened to Washington DC when I was a kid. Everyone worked in DC and then drove over the border to pay their income taxes in Virginia and Maryland. The richest counties in VA and MD are right next door to the crumbling DC streets and schools. The best schools in the US are in Fairfax County, VA, 5 or 10 miles from some of the worst schools in the US in Washington DC.

My wife and I used to live in Ponte Vedra with the best schools in the state, but we moved to Riverside because we love city life and think it is better for kids to grow up in a city the way we did up North. We're sending our daughter to a private school because sadly there are too many problems with violence and sex in the local publlic schools.

[NotNow]

I don't know that it is all about taxes & crappy, ineffiecient government.  Here in Jax it seemed to be about schools in many cases.  First to the burbs (still Jax), then when Duval county schools became intolerable everywhere, to the surrounding counties.  Private schools are a booming business in Jax.  But most folks just move to St. Johns or one of the other surrounding school districts so that their kids can go to a decent school.

And of course I always take anything Paul Krugman says with a grain of salt.

Doesnt matter why.  Or who is to blame, or how dumb 'bill' is.

Its the way that the money works, and there isn't any politics to the simple ebb and flow of mathematics.

I wouldn't say "politics", but I would say "policies".  The policies of the cities that we are seeing in trouble now were all similar in the last five decades or so.  Taking on debt, underfunding pension systems, large social services operations and corruption in hiring and purchasing.  In any organization, as the levels between the workers and the top executives increase, misunderstanding and disconnected leadership increases. 

[Jameson]

50 years of Democrats=Detroit

70 years of suburban sprawl, with wealthy and middle class people moving out of the taxation zone so that they can enjoy the benefits without any of the responsibilities equals both democratic rule and detroit's present situation.

People who want to pay lower taxes but at the same time enjoy some of the benefits are irresponsible? If that's the case, what do we label the people who pay zero taxes but at the same time enjoy the benefits?

Suburban sprawl happened all over America, not just Detroit. What other cities are in a comparable dire financial situation right now / heading down the same path?

Jameson, read the thread.  It happened all over the country, including here in Jacksonville.  Thats one of the reasons you have this conversation about Pensions going on all over the US.

I am caught up on the thread, Stephen. Thanks.

Then why are you asking questions that have already been answered?  My suggestion was based on the assumption that the most complimentary explanation was the correct one.

Because you didn't answer my question.

I simply asked that since you implied that people who pay lower taxes yet reap some benefits as irresponsible, what should we label the people who pay no taxes but reap the benefits?

Forget it.

[NotNow]

I don't know that it is all about taxes & crappy, ineffiecient government.  Here in Jax it seemed to be about schools in many cases.  First to the burbs (still Jax), then when Duval county schools became intolerable everywhere, to the surrounding counties.  Private schools are a booming business in Jax.  But most folks just move to St. Johns or one of the other surrounding school districts so that their kids can go to a decent school.

And of course I always take anything Paul Krugman says with a grain of salt.

Doesnt matter why.  Or who is to blame, or how dumb 'bill' is.

Its the way that the money works, and there isn't any politics to the simple ebb and flow of mathematics.

I wouldn't say "politics", but I would say "policies".  The policies of the cities that we are seeing in trouble now were all similar in the last five decades or so.  Taking on debt, underfunding pension systems, large social services operations and corruption in hiring and purchasing.  In any organization, as the levels between the workers and the top executives increase, misunderstanding and disconnected leadership increases.

you would be wrong, and making that claim based on what you would like to think rather than what happened, in city after city again and again across the United States.

The problem is that the political dialogue hasnt grown into the unconvenient facts on the ground, on either side of the spectrum.  Most of the suburban expansion was totally fueled by the nature of home loans through the GI and VA programs.

Government spending deliberately created sprawl as a method of artificially accelerating the economy (more new home builds, more infrastructure = more jobs etc----ibid military expansion and the various domestic 'wars' [terror, poverty, drugs etc])

But at some point there was supposed to be a cut off valve, and that point never came as the racial issues of the mid century set in and the middle class fled the cities to places where they soon realized they wouldnt be taxed.

They didn't stop taking advantage of the City amenities of course, or adding an increasing amount of tax burden to their obligations---look at how many cops it takes to adequately police Jacksonville these day---all on the public dime.  They didnt move to small towns like Palatka or Muncie or Cleveland or Waycross.  Those places don't have the amenities or markets that they needed.  They just moved onto the other side of the property tax line.

But hey, all decisions that make you an extra dime are morally good ones right?

Problem is that you become a parasite with more blood sucking power than an army of welfare moms. But no one sees that because, you know.....:nice lawns.

Liberals moved there, conservartives moved there, and apparently even a few terrorists, drug dealers, and klansmen moved there.  The one thing that united them wasnt politics obviously.  Just a lazy need for a city without any sense of obligation to pay taxes for it or make the effort into keeping the budgeting process honest.

LOL!  StephenDare! there are as many theories and stories on the death of Detroit as stars in the sky.  Your speculation, while expected, is no more accurate than any other. 

See the articles below for different theories.

http://www.policymic.com/articles/45563/detroit-bankrupt-to-see-detroit-s-decline-look-at-40-years-of-federal-policy

http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/detroits-downfall-decline-of-autos-troubled-racial-history-blamed-for-citys-decline/2013/07/21/8b3f43e4-f21d-11e2-8464-57e57af86290_story.html

http://allisonkristin.wordpress.com/

http://www.newrepublic.com/article/113954/detroits-bankruptcy-and-what-people-are-getting-wrong-about-it

Now, why hasn't the same effect been felt in cities like Houston, Phoenix, Dallas/Ft. Worth?  Businesses, jobs, and people are moving to these cities.  Why do you think that is? 

Policies.  Create a climate where business...and families...want to come.

[NotNow]

Certainly there were PLENTY of mistakes to learn from!

[NotNow]

I don't know that it is all about taxes & crappy, ineffiecient government.  Here in Jax it seemed to be about schools in many cases.  First to the burbs (still Jax), then when Duval county schools became intolerable everywhere, to the surrounding counties.  Private schools are a booming business in Jax.  But most folks just move to St. Johns or one of the other surrounding school districts so that their kids can go to a decent school.

And of course I always take anything Paul Krugman says with a grain of salt.

Doesnt matter why.  Or who is to blame, or how dumb 'bill' is.

Its the way that the money works, and there isn't any politics to the simple ebb and flow of mathematics.

I wouldn't say "politics", but I would say "policies".  The policies of the cities that we are seeing in trouble now were all similar in the last five decades or so.  Taking on debt, underfunding pension systems, large social services operations and corruption in hiring and purchasing.  In any organization, as the levels between the workers and the top executives increase, misunderstanding and disconnected leadership increases.

you would be wrong, and making that claim based on what you would like to think rather than what happened, in city after city again and again across the United States.

The problem is that the political dialogue hasnt grown into the unconvenient facts on the ground, on either side of the spectrum.  Most of the suburban expansion was totally fueled by the nature of home loans through the GI and VA programs.

Government spending deliberately created sprawl as a method of artificially accelerating the economy (more new home builds, more infrastructure = more jobs etc----ibid military expansion and the various domestic 'wars' [terror, poverty, drugs etc])

But at some point there was supposed to be a cut off valve, and that point never came as the racial issues of the mid century set in and the middle class fled the cities to places where they soon realized they wouldnt be taxed.

They didn't stop taking advantage of the City amenities of course, or adding an increasing amount of tax burden to their obligations---look at how many cops it takes to adequately police Jacksonville these day---all on the public dime.  They didnt move to small towns like Palatka or Muncie or Cleveland or Waycross.  Those places don't have the amenities or markets that they needed.  They just moved onto the other side of the property tax line.

But hey, all decisions that make you an extra dime are morally good ones right?

Problem is that you become a parasite with more blood sucking power than an army of welfare moms. But no one sees that because, you know.....:nice lawns.

Liberals moved there, conservartives moved there, and apparently even a few terrorists, drug dealers, and klansmen moved there.  The one thing that united them wasnt politics obviously.  Just a lazy need for a city without any sense of obligation to pay taxes for it or make the effort into keeping the budgeting process honest.

LOL!  StephenDare! there are as many theories and stories on the death of Detroit as stars in the sky.  Your speculation, while expected, is no more accurate than any other. 

See the articles below for different theories.

http://www.policymic.com/articles/45563/detroit-bankrupt-to-see-detroit-s-decline-look-at-40-years-of-federal-policy

http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/detroits-downfall-decline-of-autos-troubled-racial-history-blamed-for-citys-decline/2013/07/21/8b3f43e4-f21d-11e2-8464-57e57af86290_story.html

http://allisonkristin.wordpress.com/

http://www.newrepublic.com/article/113954/detroits-bankruptcy-and-what-people-are-getting-wrong-about-it

Now, why hasn't the same effect been felt in cities like Houston, Phoenix, Dallas/Ft. Worth?  Businesses, jobs, and people are moving to these cities.  Why do you think that is? 

Policies.  Create a climate where business...and families...want to come.

Really?  Why dont you tell us about Phoenix, Dallas/Ft Worth and Houston and how they deal with municipal financing of sprawl infrastructure, NN?

Im very interested to hear your take on all three.

Ron Mexico:  Declining Tax Base.  Exactly.

Well, StephenDare!, I am not the one claiming to be an expert on why Detroit failed, or on municiple financing.  Or that my statement is "right" while someone else is "wrong". 

But I will explain why I believe the problem is much more complicated than what you are representing: that people and business fled the city to avoid paying taxes while "enjoying" all of the benefits of the city, isn't that right?

[NotNow]

From Phoenix, a few days more than a year ago:
http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/viewpoints/articles/2012/07/07/20120707phoenix-needs-energy-get-talent-companies-stay.html?nclick_check=1

I remember clearly the first time I drove around downtown Phoenix. It was seven years ago, a July scorcher, not a soul to be seen. Where was everyone? The city felt so deserted, even if most people were hunkered inside.

But what about in November or even January? I knew the city was the sixth-largest in the country with nearly 1.5 million. I didn't see them out in droves then, either.

Of course, it never makes sense to rely on visual observation for a place you don't know well. After living in Los Angeles, I knew that its downtown could be a ghost town after dark, even with a city population of nearly 4 million.

But while I didn't expect to see 1.5 million Phoenix residents with my own eyes, I had expected to see a greater city dynamic, the magnetic kind where people engage each other, spur each other, make new things, create life.

This is the urban whirlwind that drags you out of the house; it's what helps persuade college grads and other up-and-comers to stick around and make things happen.

This is no mere lifestyle choice: This creative urban energy can be the difference between a city taking its place among thriving cities of the future or stuck as an afterthought, an also-ran in the global competition for jobs and opportunity.

It's easy to blame geographic sprawl, especially in Phoenix and other Southwestern cities where land speculators and real-estate interests saw their fortunes tied to luring newcomers away from city centers and to cheap land and open spaces. They tapped into the national craving for easy living.

As long as the population kept coming, it may have seemed that it didn't matter. After all, more people meant more dollars to spread around -- more buyers for shiny new cars, snappy new homes or even promising new towns, farther and farther out.

My friends in Pittsburgh, while deeply loyal and proud of their city, admit that they wish they had been growing like Phoenix rather than struggling with population decline. To a point, more people can solve a lot of problems.

But the quick, explosive growth of Phoenix -- it was the 99th-largest city in America with only 107,000 people in 1950 -- also has masked the failure to build the solid culture and secure the kind of deep attachments and loyalty that older, more established cities can assume and bank on. How else can we really explain that our baseball and football teams are not the Phoenix Diamondbacks and the Phoenix Cardinals?

This failure to bind may not matter so much when the economy booms, but an economic downturn painfully exposes a shallow talent pool, the crying shame of suburbs built on easy credit and the need for greater economic diversity to withstand business closings, job loss and relocation.

Which brings us back to the question of creative dynamism. Just as the nation depends on innovation and communication to spur new products, new businesses and new industries, so Phoenix (and every city) needs these things to thrive.

That takes more than building a state-of-the-art stadium or a smart new skyscraper, as alluring as this kind of hardware may be. It requires the more elusive attraction of brain power that combines to design something not yet seen or even imagined. The result can inspire loyalty and change a city's fortunes.

It's encouraging that Mayor Greg Stanton seemed to grasp this when he outlined his priorities in his April State of the City address. "We can't simply adopt a 'superblock' mentality for our downtown. We must focus our energies on attracting more people and events to our downtown to create a more modern, more lively center city."

Nonetheless, it's discouraging to realize that one of America's largest cities -- despite its relative youth -- is still just forming new organizations to make some noise. Kimber Lanning, founder and executive director of Local First Arizona, which supports locally owned businesses, explained the decades-old dilemma to me like this: "The Old Guard is still here -- and they don't know how to collaborate. They know they've given us a faulty product, but they don't know what to do about it."

Thirty years ago, when Pittsburgh struggled with the collapse of the steel industry and the loss of more than 150,000 jobs, it chose to focus on its universities and medical center to transform its prospects. Public and private leaders in the city and region took advantage of their history of strategic cooperation and belief in their ability to switch course.

It didn't hurt that they could draw on the philanthropy of loyal Pittsburgh residents who are also some of the country's wealthiest Americans, including the Heinz, Mellon and Carnegie families.

But the most important asset was their willingness to adapt and change, making it possible for the historic Steel City to become a brand-new Brain City with fresh reasons for people to come and stay.

By 2009, half of the 25- to 34-year-old population had earned a college degree, the fifth-highest percentage in the nation. Even more impressive, no other metro area in the country had as many young people 25 to 34 with a graduate or professional degree.

The reality in Phoenix is quite different. In just-released data from the Brookings Institution, a mere 27.2 percent of Phoenix metro residents had earned a college degree, ranking it a dismal 66th among the nation's top 100 cities.

While a college degree these days is no guarantee of success, it has shown to be a reliable marker of longer life expectancy, lower divorce rates and higher household income. Moreover, a solid core of college grads not only communicates to business leaders that the city possesses an able and ready workforce, it also helps drive the creative dynamic that attracts and holds talented people.

In contrast to our city, Austin is ranked eighth nationally with 39.4 percent of its residents holding a college degree. Given its similar climate, similar status as a state capital and similar reliance on a single major university (University of Texas-Austin), we might expect similar educational attainment.

Innovation-minded business incubators such as SkySong in Scottsdale, eco-minded projects like the Metro light rail and entrepreneurial-minded development projects like the Discovery Triangle near Sky Harbor International Airport are meaningful signs that the city may one day produce enough urban energy to inspire both locals and a diverse collection of prospective newcomers. But to reach that tipping point and secure Phoenix a slot amongst America's alluring cities of the future, it will take the commitment of more than a limited pool of urban enthusiasts.

Read more: http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/viewpoints/articles/2012/07/07/20120707phoenix-needs-energy-get-talent-companies-stay.html?nclick_check=1#ixzz2ZthPhBbG

Can you tell me how you think this has anything to do with what we are discussing?

[NotNow]

People aren't moving out of cities just to escape the taxes.  They are willing to pay for the services that they receive.  That' why they pay the higher taxes of bedroom communities as well as HOA fees.  Along with private school costs for the sake of their children if necessary.  Just look at our local situation.  Our Duval county millage is in many cases lower than St. Johns, Nassau, or Clay.  Why do people pay more taxes, as well as commuting cost to live in these counties?  Quality of life.  They want safe communities with good schools.  Everybody know this.  Well....almost everybody.

How does Jax compete?  We provide....quality of life.  Good schools and a safe environment for families.  We have the opportunities here.  We certainly have the tools, what with the beaches, river and outdoor activities available in a beautiful area. 

[NotNow]

Ah!  You started another ruminations/meditations thread...typical.

It's simple Dare!  Over the last fifty years, cities like Detroit and Cleveland have lost population, business, and tax base while cities like Houston, Phoenix, and DFW have grown expotentially.  Why are businesses flocking to some cities while abandoning others? 

This does not fit your "rich businesses and citizens fleeing taxes" mantra.   It is much, much more complicated thant that.  yet you choose to name one item that you think is the "cause" and call all others wrong.   That is just silly, and everyone here can see that, no matter how many threads you start or how many articles you post.

[NotNow]

People aren't moving out of cities just to escape the taxes.  They are willing to pay for the services that they receive.  That' why they pay the higher taxes of bedroom communities as well as HOA fees.  Along with private school costs for the sake of their children if necessary.  Just look at our local situation.  Our Duval county millage is in many cases lower than St. Johns, Nassau, or Clay.  Why do people pay more taxes, as well as commuting cost to live in these counties?  Quality of life.  They was safe communities with good schools.  Everybody know this.  Well....almost everybody.

How does Jax compete?  We provide....quality of life.  Good schools and a safe environment for families.  We have the opportunities here.  We certainly have the tools, what with the beaches, river and outdoor activities available in a beautiful area.

Notnow, actually a lot of people do move out into the sprawl areas exactly for that reason.  All over the country.

Jacksonvilles Public Education issues go back to our bungled response to disaccreditation followed up with the so called 'charter school' cancer, bleeding public education funds to these private little foundations that have largely failed in the larger picture.

You simply cannot build the same house that were built in nocatee for the same price in Avondale.  Thats just common sense.

And when you factor in land taxes over thirty years (most kids arent in private school as long as the mortgage lasts, incidentally) the cost savings are significant.

Maybe you havent priced a 300k house lately, but its a financial decision that most people don't make lightly.

And once you have a community of wealthy people with money to put into their kids, and no significant presence of poor kids to bring the bell curve down, what do you think happens to the overall statistics of an education system?

The schools arent 'better', they are just better funded.  Usually from the financial opportunities made possible by the nearby city, just without the need of contributing anything back to the place that made it possible.

Some might move for tax reasons.  Most don't move for that reason in this area.  And yes, you can build a house in Nocatee in either Duval County or St. Johns County, so they are very similar, aren't they.  Why, that's just common sense.

No, I can't afford a $300,000 dollar house.  But I have purchased several homes and I own several properties now.  I know how to look up millage rates, and there is no tax savings in moving to St. Johns County.  In fact, just the opposite. 

http://www.sjcpa.us/Millage%20Rates.html

You don't think there are "poor" kids in St. Johns?  And you blame these folks for moving their kids to a school district where they will not suffer the violence and lower quality education that Duval County Schools offer?  Your "tax fleeing" theory is just one, and a small one, of many causes of the failure of cities like Detroit.

[NotNow]

http://www.sjcpa.us/Millage%20Rates.html

http://expandinnassau.com/business-info/taxes/

http://www.coj.net/departments/property-appraiser/docs/2012-proposed-millage.aspx

Black and white. And I'm not even mentioning HOA's. Everyone in Jacksonville knows that many families move to St. Johns or other surrounding counties simply because Duval can't provide a decent school for their children. 

People aren't fleeing taxes.  They are fleeing stupidity.  Provide a good quality of life and people will live in your city.  If you put policies in place that make them unsafe, or expose their children to violence or subpar education, they will move to where those policies don't exist.  And they will pay more if they have to.