Zimmerman Found Not Guilty

[fsquid]

I'm still waiting on old Al to apologize to the Duke lacrosse players.

[Cheshire Cat]

^You have to understand a little American history from the black perspective and be willing to attempt to understand the environment TM was placed in to truly get that post. Nevertheless, why place the burden on the innocent kid, who ended up losing his right to life for absolutely nothing? Do you place any responsibility on the armed grown man who initiated the entire conflict? Your comments are reflected in the Gawker article copied a few posts back.

Look George Zimmerman was stupid in a lot of ways. Sure George should have waited for the police or at best just gone about his way. But should Have, would have or could have will not change what did happen in this case.

Then why are you arguing about it?  And While it wont change what happened in the limited arena of Florida's prosecution against Zimmerman, there will probably be a Federal case.

And talking about this case is really more about talking about what kind of a country we want in the future.

A nation of child murderers toting guns?  Or a place where we look at ways to kill fewer people, not more?

Stephen you know that you will not be able to remove guns in America so why argue that point till your blue in the face?

Well I suppose we shall see what happens.

Im not going to argue with moral cripples about their racist viewpoints on murder (not addressing you here IILY)

My involvement was because an idiot poster, using no references and citing no sources is explaining why its a good thing that a child murderer just got off because he thinks my nephews are criminals.

I missed this part of the conversation.  There was a mention of your nephews?

[AngryMuffin]

I don't have that info.  Just personal observation.  I'm sure poorer people commit more crime and I know that black people tend to be poorer than white people on average.

AM, how do your stats break down along economic levels?

[AngryMuffin]

Something is going horribly wrong to cause this level of violence.  I wish for a few minutes that we would all drop the racial bullshit and sensitivity and admit there is a huge problem, identify the cause and start working toward mitigating it.

My opinion - no factual crime stats. The majority of the problem is with the disproportionate number of absent fathers. The lack of a strong upstanding male role model to keep young men on track when they stray.  I think there is also an undercurrent of respect for thug life where life doesn't appear to have much value and education has even less value.

Contrast that with Asian and Indian immigrants who value raising their kids and put a huge emphasis on education.  They also stick together and help each other as a tight community.  They put an emphasis on using the English language correctly - that is huge.  It's the language of business and if you can't speak it, read it and write it you're going to be left out.

Basically I believe the same stuff that Bill Cosby got into trouble for saying.

What do you think is causing it? Maybe you have a different point of view?

^AM, why do you think those crime statistics are what you claim they are? Do you care?

I don't know if we can say "the majority" of the problem is absent fathers although it is pretty much understood that a positive father figure in the life of any young man is a good thing.  Broken families unfortunately is an issue for families of all racial backgrounds with a divorce rate of over 50% of American households.

[AngryMuffin]

You won't address it because you can't win the argument. You can't win the argument because you are wrong and a few hours ago - completely uninformed. Now you are more informed but still not processing the information.

You're bright enough to know not to engage but you're not bright enough to successfully argue your point.

I'd try to avoid a fight with a stronger opponent too.

^You have to understand a little American history from the black perspective and be willing to attempt to understand the environment TM was placed in to truly get that post. Nevertheless, why place the burden on the innocent kid, who ended up losing his right to life for absolutely nothing? Do you place any responsibility on the armed grown man who initiated the entire conflict? Your comments are reflected in the Gawker article copied a few posts back.

Look George Zimmerman was stupid in a lot of ways. Sure George should have waited for the police or at best just gone about his way. But should Have, would have or could have will not change what did happen in this case.

Then why are you arguing about it?  And While it wont change what happened in the limited arena of Florida's prosecution against Zimmerman, there will probably be a Federal case.

And talking about this case is really more about talking about what kind of a country we want in the future.

A nation of child murderers toting guns?  Or a place where we look at ways to kill fewer people, not more?

Stephen you know that you will not be able to remove guns in America so why argue that point till your blue in the face?

Well I suppose we shall see what happens.

Im not going to argue with moral cripples about their racist viewpoints on murder (not addressing you here IILY)

My involvement was because an idiot poster, using no references and citing no sources is explaining why its a good thing that a child murderer just got off because he thinks my nephews are criminals.

[thelakelander]

This is a totally different subject that has nothing to do with the Sanford case, outside of GZ profiling TM. Nevertheless, I have a few questions and comments since you keep bringing it up.

My opinion - no factual crime stats. The majority of the problem is with the disproportionate number of absent fathers. The lack of a strong upstanding male role model to keep young men on track when they stray.

Why is this?  Could it be the long term result of an environment and political system that has slowly ripped apart the black family structure, resulted in huge discrepancies in family wealth, and limited overall educational opportunity for more than a century after the ending of the Civil War?  Could a problem be access to birth control for those with lower household incomes? Could closing neighborhood schools and libraries in poverty stricken areas result in decreased access to educational amenities for that general population?  Does that decreased access at an early childhood level lead to higher crime at some point?

Or is it simply only black fathers out of all races who have chosen to abandon their families?  Is there an environmental cause and effect situation at play that multiples the numbers quoted?

I think there is also an undercurrent of respect for thug life where life doesn't appear to have much value and education has even less value.

Last time I checked, I'm black and still have my male parts and there's no undercurrent or respect for thug life in my household.  Is this undercurrent you speak of based along economic lines?  If so, is there a similar undercurrent spread among different races where the population lives in the same economic conditions?

Contrast that with Asian and Indian immigrants who value raising their kids and put a huge emphasis on education.  They also stick together and help each other as a tight community.  They put an emphasis on using the English language correctly - that is huge.  It's the language of business and if you can't speak it, read it and write it you're going to be left out.

Again, I'd challenge you to look at economic levels before putting people into groups by color.  We're all the same.  Our colors are various shades because we have ancestors who's skin adapted to exposure to sunlight in various parts of the globe.  There's no black vs white, green or yellow person blood type, finger prints, bone structure, etc. Give America another hundred years or so and you'll see more shades of color develop.

What we have on our hands is a centuries old economic system where hierocracy has been based largely upon skin color. Place a group of people in a bad environment and bad things will happen.  Change the environment and you'll change the result. 

Basically I believe the same stuff that Bill Cosby got into trouble for saying.

I think Bill Cosby caught a lot of flack for the same reason Ock did at the beginning of this thread.  Focusing on a specific point in time and lecturing people when you may not be wearing the shoes they are walking in isn't going to help the situation.  Figuring out and altering the cause is how you impact the result.

What do you think is causing it? Maybe you have a different point of view?

I believe things revolve around economics and environment. Since WWII, I can offer up countless examples of taxpayer backed programs that have created an economic gulf between races in America, such as the GI Bill or many of the urban renewal programs of the late 20th century.  For example, the taxpayer subsidized G.I. Bill directly led to sprawling suburban areas like Levittown.  However, many minorities were prohibited from this federal handout.  On the flip end, we grouped those in living in poverty to the central cities with the development off projects.  We also ripped apart several of those neighborhoods with expressways to provide access for those being subsidized to flee the city. Then we wonder why areas like the Northside became havens of crime? Simple cause and effect.

If you want to dig into prison statistics, you can look at laws that result in certain populations getting more prison time than others. Heck, you can even start getting into profiling tendencies. Even the idea of GZ shooting TM and walking away free, but a 21 year old weed smoker going to prison should be a cause for concern.

For me, lecturing others on issues, one has no earthly idea of what they are talking about, by offering up skewed statistics doesn't resolve anything.  It only leads to more division.  The real issues revolve around economics and environment. Change those and you'll end up will different results, no matter what the person's skin pigmentation is.

[thelakelander]

(The real issues revolve around economics and environment. Change those and you'll end up will different results, no matter what the person's skin pigmentation is.) True but the Very rich will never let this happen this is the way they control us all. Why is it even in 2013 a Woman makes less money then a Man in a lot of jobs?

^Just goes to show that everything is not peaches and cream.  We still have some work to do.

[AngryMuffin]

Incorrect. Link to the FBI murder stats I posted earlier:

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-3

2011 - murder stats by race

You make this so easy.

^You have to understand a little American history from the black perspective and be willing to attempt to understand the environment TM was placed in to truly get that post. Nevertheless, why place the burden on the innocent kid, who ended up losing his right to life for absolutely nothing? Do you place any responsibility on the armed grown man who initiated the entire conflict? Your comments are reflected in the Gawker article copied a few posts back.

Look George Zimmerman was stupid in a lot of ways. Sure George should have waited for the police or at best just gone about his way. But should Have, would have or could have will not change what did happen in this case.

Then why are you arguing about it?  And While it wont change what happened in the limited arena of Florida's prosecution against Zimmerman, there will probably be a Federal case.

And talking about this case is really more about talking about what kind of a country we want in the future.

A nation of child murderers toting guns?  Or a place where we look at ways to kill fewer people, not more?

Stephen you know that you will not be able to remove guns in America so why argue that point till your blue in the face?

Well I suppose we shall see what happens.

Im not going to argue with moral cripples about their racist viewpoints on murder (not addressing you here IILY)

My involvement was because an idiot poster, using no references and citing no sources is explaining why its a good thing that a child murderer just got off because he thinks my nephews are criminals.

I missed this part of the conversation.  There was a mention of your nephews?

Certainly.  They are young black males, after all.  And Muffintop seems to think that we need to have discussions with them about 'character' so that some fat racist pretending to be a cop doesnt shoot them to death.  Because, you know: crime.

[thelakelander]

^What's the murder rate by economic status? We all know that in America, we struggle with a system that has been built on economic hierarchy based on skin color. Cause and effect. Change the environment, change the results.

[AngryMuffin]

No I'm not a troll. This is my point of view. It's my point of view in reference to an original post that profiling is unfair and racist.  My claim is that profiling exists because of the actions of the people being profiled.

You've not been able to refute a single one of my points - not one. You've only been able to call me names and insult me. I use statistics - you deflect.  I try to discuss  problem like an adult you finger point and act childish.

You're not very good at this game.  One more post and I'm done. Saving the best for last.

You won't address it because you can't win the argument. You can't win the argument because you are wrong and a few hours ago - completely uninformed. Now you are more informed but still not processing the information.

You're bright enough to know not to engage but you're not bright enough to successfully argue your point.

I'd try to avoid a fight with a stronger opponent too.

Actually.  I don't address the arguments of trolls.

You are a racist troll, and you are using the murder of a black child to launch your pretty pathetic discussion about black criminality. 

Never mind the disrespect and lack of common decency to accuse the victim of a murder for his murderers crime.

You havent really advanced an 'argument'.  youve simply made an unverified claim about a racial group.  Not very impressive.

So I don't know what you think can be 'won', except that you win by further engaging people in your racist chatter.

But Im sure you must be right about me fearing your towering (and unsourced) intellect.  Im a shrinking violet when it comes to things like that.

[If_I_Loved_you]

No I'm not a troll. This is my point of view. It's my point of view in reference to an original post that profiling is unfair and racist.  My claim is that profiling exists because of the actions of the people being profiled.

You've not been able to refute a single one of my points - not one. You've only been able to call me names and insult me. I use statistics - you deflect.  I try to discuss  problem like an adult you finger point and act childish.

You're not very good at this game.  One more post and I'm done. Saving the best for last.

You won't address it because you can't win the argument. You can't win the argument because you are wrong and a few hours ago - completely uninformed. Now you are more informed but still not processing the information.

You're bright enough to know not to engage but you're not bright enough to successfully argue your point.

I'd try to avoid a fight with a stronger opponent too.

Actually.  I don't address the arguments of trolls.

You are a racist troll, and you are using the murder of a black child to launch your pretty pathetic discussion about black criminality. 

Never mind the disrespect and lack of common decency to accuse the victim of a murder for his murderers crime.

You havent really advanced an 'argument'.  youve simply made an unverified claim about a racial group.  Not very impressive.

So I don't know what you think can be 'won', except that you win by further engaging people in your racist chatter.

But Im sure you must be right about me fearing your towering (and unsourced) intellect.  Im a shrinking violet when it comes to things like that.

AngryMuffin when they call you Troll it's because you have gotten under their skin?

[If_I_Loved_you]

AngryMuffin when they call you Troll it's because you have gotten under their skin?

1.  no.  it has an actual meaning.

2.  while its true there isnt a great appetite for 'stupid' around here, it doesnt mean you are trolling.

Stephen why don't you spell check what you post?

[JeffreyS]

I am going to lobby for a bill that expressly gives people the right to flee danger. As a provision following people who are fearfully fleeing you will constitute harassment and of course any gun use in the commitment of that crime (harassment ) will in no way be justifiable.

You ought to be able to try and avoid trouble without it taking its gun and pursuing you.

[AngryMuffin]

Oh boy.  Not so good at math are you?  Who cares what unknown is.  Say it's 50 / 50.

At 50 / 50.

White : 6767
Black : 7524

Population white / black 72% vs 12%

That would change the result to 6.74 black murders per 1 white murder.

Well Lake, it turns out that the first line of his own link shows his interpretation to be complete bullshit.

Total    for 2011 14,548   
Sex of offender:
Male  9,485   
Female:  1,138   
Unknown Gender:  3,925   

Race of offender:
White:  4,729   
Black:  5,486   
Other:  256   
Unknown:  4,077

32% vs 37% black v. white respectively, except there is the huge problem presented by the 'unknown' category.  28%.  Considering that there is no information on his link which shows the racial breakdown of the 'unknown', any conclusions would be kind of stupid to make.  It is possible that all 4,077 of the unknown murderers are white, They could all be "Other".  Who knows?

And so on the basis of this very thin and non conclusive data, you would like us to stop noticing that a child murder was committed by a guy (whose family describes him as a racist) and talk about your racist theories instead?

Well awesome.  But it still doesnt cover your underlying problem with dancing around the difference between 'killers' and 'murderers'.  Your point was about social violence and killing, but youve narrowed it to the category of people who have been found guilty of murder instead.

And even then, your own citations don't back up your little fantasy.

[AngryMuffin]

They call me a troll because I'm much brighter and more informed than they are and I'm showing them to be mental weaklings.

No I'm not a troll. This is my point of view. It's my point of view in reference to an original post that profiling is unfair and racist.  My claim is that profiling exists because of the actions of the people being profiled.

You've not been able to refute a single one of my points - not one. You've only been able to call me names and insult me. I use statistics - you deflect.  I try to discuss  problem like an adult you finger point and act childish.

You're not very good at this game.  One more post and I'm done. Saving the best for last.

You won't address it because you can't win the argument. You can't win the argument because you are wrong and a few hours ago - completely uninformed. Now you are more informed but still not processing the information.

You're bright enough to know not to engage but you're not bright enough to successfully argue your point.

I'd try to avoid a fight with a stronger opponent too.

Actually.  I don't address the arguments of trolls.

You are a racist troll, and you are using the murder of a black child to launch your pretty pathetic discussion about black criminality. 

Never mind the disrespect and lack of common decency to accuse the victim of a murder for his murderers crime.

You havent really advanced an 'argument'.  youve simply made an unverified claim about a racial group.  Not very impressive.

So I don't know what you think can be 'won', except that you win by further engaging people in your racist chatter.

But Im sure you must be right about me fearing your towering (and unsourced) intellect.  Im a shrinking violet when it comes to things like that.

AngryMuffin when they call you Troll it's because you have gotten under their skin?