A New Look For Fuqua's Brooklyn Retail Project?

[Keith-N-Jax]

Wish I had a pic of the CVS they built in Gainesville near the VA recently.

[thelakelander]

The shocking thing is that the powers here are not looking at the design concessions that companies are making in other urban cores.  How can the notion even exist that CVS, McDonalds, etc. will not invest in the urban core (outside of their preferred template)?  Ennis is finding example after example of how other "small" cities are luring business and finding common ground.   

The funny thing is they aren't really making design concessions.  The overall store layout and square footages are the same.  These other places just feature zoning regulations with limited front setback distances.  For example, here's a McDonalds in Louisville. Includes a drive thru and surface parking on the sides, but now the outdoor dining happens on the street, as opposed to the middle of a surface parking lot.



Also, I thought this Checker's drive thru in downtown Sarasota was pretty interesting...

Is there such thing as an urban designed building with a drive thru, or are drive thrus the spawn of Satan far as urbanism is concerned?

Yes. This thread contains a few shots of some. Two drive thru restaurants are shown above. Both are in walkable sections of town.

IMO most urbanists complaints with suburban designs are mainly about aesthetics. I'm not totally buying the 'walkability' and 'unsafe auto traffic' arguments; Now there's the rare exception to everything. There's nothing to prove that the average suburban design is more 'dangerous' than an urban one.

You don't have to buy them but statistics prove otherwise:

Jacksonville third worst for traffic deaths among pedestrians

..Transportation for America, based in Washington, highlighted the issue recently in "Dangerous By Design," a study of traffic fatalities from 2000 through 2009. In that study, Jacksonville was ranked as the third worst metropolitan area for pedestrians, with 16.1 percent of all traffic deaths being people on foot....

Read more at Jacksonville.com: http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2011-06-20/story/jacksonville-third-worst-traffic-deaths-among-pedestrians#ixzz2Zm1J2nI4

Here's the actual report and a suggestion from the report on how to reduce pedestrian your death rate.

http://t4america.org/resources/dangerousbydesign2011/

Most Dangerous Metro Areas

1. Orlando-Kissimmee, FL
2. Tampa-St. Petersburg-Clearwater, FL
3. Jacksonville, FL
4. Miami-Fort Lauderdale-Pompano Beach, FL
5. Riverside-San Bernardino-Ontario, CA
6. Las Vegas-Paradise, NV
7. Memphis, TN-MS-AR
8. Phoenix-Mesa-Scottsdale, AZ
9. Houston-Sugar Land-Baytown, TX
10. Dallas-Fort Worth-Arlington, TX

So why do you think our pedestrian death rates are one of the highest in country?  Also, what do you think lower density development ultimately does to our tax rolls and pension costs?  How about our obesity rates? All of this stuff is related.

I don't think that a suburban design will stop any pedestrian (other than the one obsessed urbanist) from getting a Big Mac, or some medicine from Family Dollar, or the Riverside Pharmacy. Hell, urban buildings right on a sidewalk corner (posing blind spots for drivers) is about as dangerous as it gets (regarding pedestrians) but you won't here that from this site for obvious reasons. That being said, I wouldn't mind seeing a more urban design (particularly on the State/Union corridor)  for the simple fact that it's between to urban areas (DT & Springfield).

You kind of contradict yourself here with no real statistical data to back up the assumptions. However, I like where you're headed.  Why are you okay with more urban design between DT and Springfield but not between DT and Riverside, DT and Durkeeville or DT and San Marco?  What's the difference in your opinion?

[tufsu1]

Wish I had a pic of the CVS they built in Gainesville near the VA recently.

here you go...although take note that the design is forced upon developers by zoning regulations...they don't want to build multi-story, just ahve to if they want a drive-thru....but, as the article implies, those regs are likely to be changed soon.

http://www.gainesville.com/article/20130721/ARTICLES/130729989?tc=cr

[Keith-N-Jax]

Thanks for posting that, they did a very nice job with that CVS. Something like that would be so much better.

[CityLife]

Don't take this as gospel, but I don't believe CVS will be part of this.

[thelakelander]

Think it will be Walgreens or another pharmacy chain?

[CityLife]

Not sure what it will be, but I heard from someone that would know that it doesn't look like it will be CVS.

[Keith-N-Jax]

Doesn't matter if its CVS or Walgreens, its the design were most concerned with.

[CityLife]

^Obviously....I was just pointing out that it likely won't be a CVS.

[fsquid]

Just to continue to pour salt into our wounds, I passed this in Richmond, VA earlier today. A fairly new CVS built right up on the street and with a brick facade to match the surrounding architecture in Shockoe Bottom.

I know exactly where that is.  There is also a grocery store next to it with the same features.

[I-10east]

It's obvious that  you favor suburban design in every part of the city. The McDonalds and Dollar store on State street are horrible.I guess for you the same horrible design for Brooklyn is ok. If it were up to you all of Jacksonville would look like River City Market Place a suburban nightmare. I would rather see nothing built there instead of a terrible design that will not go away in my lifetime. Jacksonville blows it way more often then we get it right.

I already said that I wouldn't mind seeing a more urban designs on the Union/ State corridor, so how can I want 'every part of Jax' to be suburban?

To be honest about Brooklyn, the area pretty much straddles on urban and suburban style buildings. Look at what's across the street? The Florida Times Union, Haskell, and other suburban styles buildings with pretty large parking lots. MJ often says that State/Union cuts off DT from Springfield; IMO the FEC railroad tracks cuts off the Riverside from DT noticeably more, being that the only connection are viaducts. So that's why I'm not throwing a fit with this Brooklyn project. That Riverside Publix is not exactly an urban masterpiece either; The only thing that saves it from being 'very suburban looking' is the line of stores on Margaret St.

With all due respect, it's pretty dumb to 'rather see nothing' than some suburban style restaurants/retail etc in a SUBURBAN AREA, regardless the way it's built. I think that I'm being pretty fair saying that. Talk about being 'anti-progress'. Progress doesn't always = to urban contrary to popular belief. "Costco, close it down because I don't like the way it's built" SMH...

[I-10east]

^^^Haha, pretty creative Stephen. I guess that I'm lying about those long time suburban style buildings on Riverside....

[I-10east]

^^^Would you be satisfied if the Brooklyn Retail was built similar to the Riverside Publix (with stores fronting on Riverside, like the Papa John's China Wok etc front Margaret?

[I-10east]

You don't have to buy them but statistics prove otherwise:

Jacksonville third worst for traffic deaths among pedestrians

..Transportation for America, based in Washington, highlighted the issue recently in "Dangerous By Design," a study of traffic fatalities from 2000 through 2009. In that study, Jacksonville was ranked as the third worst metropolitan area for pedestrians, with 16.1 percent of all traffic deaths being people on foot....

IMO these pedestrian accident facts are a lil' too broad to correlate with suburban style property accidents. I watch the news very often; Typically a Jax ped accident will be something like this. "A woman was struck by a car, attempting to cross 103rd" or "A boy was struck by a truck trying to cross Arlington Expressway". I never hear this...."A girl was life flighted to UF Health when she was struck by a car on grounds of the Normandy Mc Donalds".

[I-10east]

I 10.  Im being serious in this question.

How would you define "Urbanist'?

A person that wants everything to resemble New York.