Learning from Greenville, SC

[Metro Jacksonville]

Learning from Greenville, SC



According to Ron Barton, Executive Director of the JEDC, Jacksonville's focus for downtown revitalization has shifted to horizontal development.  Greenville, SC is an example of a community that has been successful using horizontal public improvements to stimulate vertical private development.

Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/744

[MrPajitnov]

This makes me want to move more to Greenville than stay here. our short-sighted government would never dream of a long term plan or sticking to one if they made it. Around here it's all about expanding the population as fast as possible and only bringing something up once it has become a critical situation.

[second_pancake]

I'm so glad you posted this.  My husband and I were actually looking at Greenville a couple of months ago when he was looking at a job out there and I fell in love.

What they've done with their downtown in amazing, and even more amazing is how the long-time residents not only welcomed the change, but seem to have fully embraced it and utilize what has been built.  If that's not enough for you, then how about the fact that world-famous cyclist George Hincapie lives in Greenville   The area is filled with cyclists, various group rides and many cycling events.

If you really want to see Greenville from a residents perspective, check out this guy's blog, http://www.greenvilledailyphoto.com/.  He is a resident that lives and works in downtown Greenville and he takes pictures to and from work each day and shares them on his blog.  They really give you insight to what it's like to be there at any given day.

[jerry cornwell]

try not to start a story with a quote from ron barton: hes the cancer thats eating away jacksonville, why is he still here? Since hes headed the jedc things get worse. and then he tells all how to do it right. yesterday 3 100yr + buildings were destroyed, whats his say on that? vertical growth starts at the bottom?

[Steve]

I particularly like the free on-street parking.  It's funny - everyone is opposed to it here, yet it works in Greenville, and it workes here in Five Points, San Marco, Avondale, and Fernandina.

[RiversideGator]

While I think we can learn from Greenville (particularly about free on street parking downtown - what do we have to lose?) but let's not get carried away.  Greenville is a significantly smaller town than Jax and is really more like a large Asheville.  I cant imagine living there personally.  I need all of the amenities that flow from being in an MSA of 1+ million.

Also, it looks like the article includes surrounding neighborhoods in Greenville's "downtown".  If you include Riverside, San Marco and Springfield in Jacksonville's downtown area, we start to look a lot better too.  So, a lot of this is about how you define the downtowns of the respective cities.

[jerry cornwell]

exactly riverside, its most important that its recognized that greenville is NOT a metropolitian area, and Jacksonville IS! the free on site parking has been "revealed" earlier.  maybe the paid parking is a procedure for the city to discourage residential growth(presence) and control downtown for the few, hence the negative perception of "downtown jacksonville" by 99% of its citizens. and this carries on to commerical, business presence in downtown. citizens only envision downtown as parking lots $$$ per hour paid when they MUST go downtown. this is the essence of the "downtown" platform of jedc, mr barton et al!!!

[vicupstate]

While I think we can learn from Greenville (particularly about free on street parking downtown - what do we have to lose?) but let's not get carried away.  Greenville is a significantly smaller town than Jax and is really more like a large Asheville.  I cant imagine living there personally.  I need all of the amenities that flow from being in an MSA of 1+ million.

Also, it looks like the article includes surrounding neighborhoods in Greenville's "downtown".  If you include Riverside, San Marco and Springfield in Jacksonville's downtown area, we start to look a lot better too.  So, a lot of this is about how you define the downtowns of the respective cities.

When I have a little more time, I will reply in more detail, as I live in Greenville currently and also know the history of Jacksonville's downtown past and present very well.    

But for now, let me say that the quoted post is quite misleading.  All of the photos were taken in the 1.75 sq. mile CBD.  West End is no farther from the core of DT Greenville than the Cathedral district is from the core of DT Jax.  

The 1+million metro is misleading as well.  Greenville is part of what used to be the Greenville-Spartanburg-Anderson Metro area.  The Census bureau now divides these into three MSAs.  Greenville is in the center of the three and they have a combined population of 1.2 million, nearly identical to Jax.

In terms of 'amenities', we all know Jax has not reached the Nordstrom/Neiman Marcus threshold yet, nor has Greenville.  There are some smaller stores that Jax has that Greeenville doesn't such as Apple, and Ruth's Chris, but both are in the works currently.  

In terms of metro size, income, etc. they are really quite similiar.  Given the huge advantage Jax has in having 3/4 of the metro population under one consolidated government, Jacksonville should be running circles around Greenville and many similiar sized metro areas.  In reality the opposite is true.                

[thelakelander]

I'll put together a couple of scaled Google Earth images to show the relation in the size of each community's downtown.  I believe the combined land area in every district discussed in this article could fit within our Downtown's Northbank boundaries. 

I also agree with Vicupstate that with the right leadership and vision in place, Jacksonville should be running circles around this smaller city.  Instead, this place has found a way to do a lot more with less resources.  I don't think we do ourselves any good making excuses of why we prefer to live in Jax over Greenville.  We're better off taking a look at the things they've been successful in implementing (maintaining a long term master plan, free on-street parking to encourage retail, image branding, clear wayfaring signage, etc.) and seeing if similar techniques are worth exploring locally.

[konstantconsumer]

i went to furman from 2000 to 2005, and lived in downtown greenville for the last two years of that.  i ADORED greenville, despite the backwater crowd that seemed to live outside of the downtown area.  basically, if you lived in downtown, it was like being in any other big city in the US. 

[RiversideGator]

Full disclosure:  I have never been the Greenville and have just driven around it on the way to the NC mountains.  But, if you aggregate a bunch of small towns and they add up to a million people, this still doesnt make it a big city.  It is just a collection of small towns.  Also, I would like to see the maps of their downtown superimposed on ours.  Maybe the scale was just confusing to me.  Having said all that, Greenville's downtown does appear nice and I dont want to take anything away from that.  I just dont think that the metro areas are comparable.  I do obviously wish we had better leadership and downtown development here too, as I have stated before.  Anyway, I am willing to take lessons from anyone and the free downtown on street parking needs to be tried here ASAP.

[thelakelander]

The area explored on foot in Greenville would be equal to walking from LaVilla to the Cathedral District on foot.

Greenville
area includes Downtown core, the West End District and Falls Park, which sits between the two. Main Street is highlighted with a yellow line.


Jacksonville
If the Greenville area, shown above were converted into a rectangle, it would probably fit between the river, Catherine Street, Union Street and Davis Street, meaning the stadium district and Prime Osborn would fall outside of that boundary. 


Forget about Indianapolis or Louisville.  If we can get build a vibrant downtown area rivaling the size of Greenville's most of the complaints of inactivity today would go away.

[vicupstate]

Whenever comparisons are made between cities and/or Metro areas, context is important. Jacksonville's city population is a large multiple of Miami's, but the Miami Metro area is a multiple of Jax's Metro population.  Is Metro Miami a collection of small towns?  The average city there has a population of probably 10,000.  

A retailer or industrial plant scout is not going to look at city limits, county boundaries or misleading population figures, they look at the coherent market or the labor pool they will draw from.    

The Jacksonville and GSA metro areas both consists of 5 counties, with a 1.2 mm population, the biggest difference is the population is significantly more concentrated in Jax than GSA. That is a significant difference, but no two metro's are going to be exact matches for each other.  
 

[thelakelander]

I think the comparisons worth discussing have nothing to do with the size and context of a specific city.  To me, the comparisons we should be looking at are:

A. creation of new pocket park vs. improving existing parks
Is it beneficial to use public funds to enhance existing park spaces such as Confederate/Klutho Park, Hemming or in Greenville's case Falls Park, verse using that money to build new pocket parks?

B.  What are the pros & cons of implementing free on-street parking?
We know that the current situation is not ideal.  On the other hand Greenville has been successful.  How do they deal with the issue of office workers potentially taking up free spaces?

C. Complying with a downtown master plan
We continue to have substandard designed buildings approved in the CBD that don't enhance walkability, such as the abandoned Sax Seafood restaurant.  Greenville's new projects abut the street and embrace the pedestrian.   What are they doing that we aren't and does it negatively affect growth in downtown if the DDRB demands for quality design?

D. Art Incubators
Greenville's Art Crossing has become a popular attraction on their riverwalk.  Could we develop a similar project with vacant city owned buildings like the Snyder Memorial? 

To me these are the comparisons that need to be made and evaluated.  With these it doesn't matter what the each metropolitan area offers, who they compete with for jobs or if the selected city has 100,000 or 1 million residents.

[konstantconsumer]

regarding B, if i recall correctly, parking was limited to two hours during weekday business hours.  at 5 it became free.  also, on the weekends it was free.