Views on Heaven, is it real or a fantasy?

[Cheshire Cat]

Oh .... sorry... I forgot the two questions.

Now to a specific point, What is the evolutionary reason for man to develop a thinking process that questions his own existence?  You say it is a natural thing.  Is it?  Why?  What makes it natural?  How can you prove it?



A proof on this kind of question is impossible of course.  But I can, before my beer affects my thinking too much, try an answer. 


The thinking process evolving within man involved an increased ability to solve problems, the trait which improved the likelihood of man’s survival as an individual, and therefore as a species.  As the general intelligence increased in man, there occurred also an increased ability to think abstractly, and to ponder difficult questions.


It seems probable that some of those questions would relate to man’s existence and purpose. 


Given that man achieved the habit of thinking in this manner of complexity and ability, then one might suggest that it became not only “natural” for him to do so, but “natural” for him to question aspects of his existence. 



To another point, how can you prove that consciousness does not exist outside of human form?  What is your proof?



Again, this kind of thing cannot be proven.  All we can do is believe according to the best evidences we have, or do not have. 


I will believe that consciousness does not exist outside of the human form until some evidence causes me to believe it does.


It would be more appropriate for me to ask you to prove the existence of the  phenomenon, as it seems easier to prove an existence, than to prove non-existence. 


In any case, the existence of consciousness outside of the human would cause some kind of detectible energy in the environment.  Any transmission of data requires some kind of energy.  Until some kind of consciousness energy emanating from the human is measured and detected, or the consequences of it is observed, how can anyone believe in its existence?


This is similar to a situation wherein I observe that there is no chair in room “A”, but you say there is a chair in room “A”.   You seem to say that there is a chair in room “A” (consciousness outside of the human form), even though there is no evidence of it.  I ask you to show me the evidence of the chair, but you cannot. You say.....  but I know its there. 


I ask you if you see evidence of consciousness outside of the human form.  You say no .... but you know its there. 


There has never been evidence of any kind of consciousness outside of the human form.  I suspect that what appears to be evidence, actually exists only within the mind of the one claiming the evidence.     

Firstly I am glad that you answered both questions by saying you cannot prove your view is factual, only what you believe to be true.  In fact you often speak about what you "believe".   In this way you are no different than those whose beliefs you challenge and wish to have proof of.  There is much that humanity does not know with regard to our existence and the nature of our human experience and neither science or religions can prove or disprove the existence of God or a divine intelligence.  There is no measure for that.

I think the mistake some atheists or non believers make when they think about the existence of religion is based upon the assumption that all such beliefs, spiritual or otherwise are based in fear or the longing to fill in the blanks of our own human reality as a way to put order into our lives or simply to give us comfort.  While that may be true in many situations, it is not true of all.  For many of us, connecting to a higher consciousness and divinity is merely the natural outcropping of an inner knowing and experience, not born of fear or longing but simply a response to what lives inside.  That knowing for me has been there my entire life.  I knew I was not just flesh and bones.  The best way for me to explain this is through a recognition that happened to me when I was a small child and first looked into a mirror.  I had crawled up on my parents bed and was looking into the large mirror on my mothers dresser.  I saw reflected there my mother and my father and a tiny little girl with blonde curls.  I stared at that little girl and my mother pointed and said, that's you honey.  I clearly remember looking at the form of that little girl and saying to myself, that not me, that's not what I look like.  How did I get in here (this body)?  I have always, always known and understood that the totality of what I am is not the flesh and blood of my form but rather a flesh and blood form that holds an extension of the consciousness of something far beyond the physical that travels for a while in human form.  I have always known there was purpose to my life and have always deeply felt and been connected to the world and people around me.  This understanding was born in me and will remain when my body dies.  There is no need for me to prove this to anyone else nor is there a fear that death is the end of consciousness.  I came into this life "remembering" and have never forgotten the truth of spirit and soul consciousness.  It saddens me that this inner understanding is lost to some and convoluted by religious doctrine by others.  We exist and have always existed in and out of physical form. For me it's not a matter of believing but rather of waking up and remembering eternal truths. 

[Starbuck]

"Good insights Starbuck, but does your statement only apply to Christian beliefs.  What about other religions?"

Other religions have their own sets of belief, also. Some are identical or similar to Christian belief. Some are very differant. I do not believe that all beliefs are of equal value or equal benefit to the adherents (and non-adherents). Some are demonstrably inferior and some are demonstrably superior (dependant, of course, on the criteria used to evaluate them). From a utilitarian viewpoint, I think that Christianity has a lot to be recommended in western culture. I am "liberal" enough to feel comfortable drawing some value from eastern and other traditions, but I am a Christian in that I believe in the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and in the embodiment of that God Almighty in the person of Jesus Christ who lived, died and was resurrected according to the Christian historic accounts and main-line understanding through the past two millenia. I do not believe that Christianity needs to be interpreted and expressed exclusively according to 19th century American philosophical constructs.

[Cheshire Cat]

"Good insights Starbuck, but does your statement only apply to Christian beliefs.  What about other religions?"

Other religions have their own sets of belief, also. Some are identical or similar to Christian belief. Some are very differant. I do not believe that all beliefs are of equal value or equal benefit to the adherents (and non-adherents). Some are demonstrably inferior and some are demonstrably superior (dependant, of course, on the criteria used to evaluate them). From a utilitarian viewpoint, I think that Christianity has a lot to be recommended in western culture. I am "liberal" enough to feel comfortable drawing some value from eastern and other traditions, but I am a Christian in that I believe in the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and in the embodiment of that God Almighty in the person of Jesus Christ who lived, died and was resurrected according to the Christian historic accounts and main-line understanding through the past two millenia. I do not believe that Christianity needs to be interpreted and expressed exclusively according to 19th century American philosophical constructs.

Thank you for your clear and direct response.  Do you feel Christianity is superior to other religious views based upon your own opinion or the opinion of a pastor or past teachers and that there is a heaven?  What criterion are you using in order to make such a judgement?  What comes to mind are the words of an elder who once said "There are many roads to the Creator, one takes that path that best suits them!"

[Demosthenes]

Cheshire, any "good" christian will tell you that you are wrong. Accept Jesus as your personal lord and savior, or burn in hell. The many roads quote is not from a religious partisan.

[Cheshire Cat]

^The many roads quote is from a Native American elder whose life path is pretty much outside of what most view religion to be.  As to the Christian view on Jesus, I have indeed heard some proclaim what you have stated in your post, but not all I know take this view.  This is why I am interested to know what exactly Starbuck is using to measure faith and belief as a Christian as there are many who claim Christianity but there are innumerable versions of Christian belief.   

[Cheshire Cat]

Stephen, do your believe that the majority of Baptists have it right about heaven or a hereafter? 

I have to be out most of today but will look for your view when I get back later in the day. 

By the way, I would agree that discussions about religious views, beliefs and non beliefs are the most difficult to have but worth having in a civil manner.  Personally I think productive and open dialog is a great path to understanding what makes folks hold such a variety of differing beliefs or no spiritual belief at all beyond we live and die and that's it.

[Cheshire Cat]

Stephen, do your believe that the majority of Baptists have it right about heaven or a hereafter? 

I have to be out most of today but will look for your view when I get back later in the day. 

I honestly don't know, Diane.

I think that I would be an idiot to pronounce an opinion on something that I have no way of knowing, to be honest.  And its something that I have quietly devoted a very long time of my life exploring.  Im soon to be fifty years old, and the older I get the more intrigued I am with the question.

I appreciate the truth in your answer Stephen.  I have some input on this which I will share for discussion later today upon my return. 

[Demosthenes]

Cheshire, any "good" christian will tell you that you are wrong. Accept Jesus as your personal lord and savior, or burn in hell. The many roads quote is not from a religious partisan.

This is the thing that is so frustrating when discussing faith or religious belief in Jacksonville.  Very few of the alleged intellects or supposed free thinkers are able to talk about anything other than their frustration with one small sliver of fundamentalist baptists.  Its much easier and more open minded to actually talk to Baptists, Ive found.

What I am stating is, for most Christian sects, be it Catholicism, Mormonism, and yes, Baptists, the dogmatic truth. Its not passing judgement, its stating fact.

[JayBird]

First Diane, let me just say thank you for posting this thread because even if I wasn't writing it is still thought-provoking just to read others thoughts.

Indeed, it is your right to approach belief and this world reality in the way that not only makes the most sense to you, but also in a way that gives you comfort.  I have heard the comment about belief in the bible as a safe bet, almost a no harm done sort of position to take in case some part of us survives death.  The flaw I find in the statement is that is stems from fear and that comes from much of what the bible teaches about a wrathful god and afterlife. To me that belief does do harm to many.  It's a default position, a better be safe than sorry stance to protect oneself if indeed the bible were true and descriptions of an after life were accurate you would literally suffer a hell of a mess if you didn't believe in the bible prior to death.  I personally reject this notion based in fear.

True, however I would counter with the fact that I believe everyone is drawn to their belief in the afterlife (if they believe there is one) based on fear of death or of the unknown.  Once they begin to follow a faith and delve deeper into its meanings and gain an understanding, then they may lose that fear and instead take solace in the fact that they believe that is what the next stage will be.

And though it is a "default" position that brought them there, if they believe they believe.  It is my understanding, being raised Roman Catholic, that if you believe and have faith then you are rewarded with the kingdom.  Nothing about how one came to that belief.  I think you touched on that on a recent post that I just read.

For believers and non believers in death they will find what they "believed" they would find at the time of their passing. Then they will awake to their own consciousness and what it means at the point they are ready to understand.  Some will experience oblivion until their physically unbound consciousness awakes, others will see Jesus, others will see Buddha, others will see relatives, others will see angels.  Whatever we perceive to be the realities of death will be what we initially experience but not the entirety of what is.  For any belief system that is predicated on consciousness as expressed in a single physical existence one might ask, how would a small child have any concept of what to expect after life?  The answer is that they (we) are not the product of a single experience but the extension of a consciousness that is not bound by our reality or our form and has existed before and after this world and beyond.  Knowledge is carried forward and eternal, so even a child will have a reference of "experiences" to apply after death as will those who are living this life and still remain "asleep" when it comes to knowing the reality of their unlimited consciousness and divinity.

Along the lines of "What if all the religions of the world were all right?".  I love history and I love learning new things.  I am forever the geek and constantly learning, I take classes online and at FSCJ just for fun and the experience of finding new worlds of knowledge.  However, one area I am highly naive in is theological studies.  My formal training came in a B.S. in Psychology, later a Masters with another Bachelors in Sociology.  I have been told, enough times to at least give it credence, by those whom have studied the Bible, the Koran, the Torah that is really "closely related stories told from a different point of view".  However, I also can see how that same "story" can be used by political or fanatical forces to control a large group of people.  For instance, a king who needs the peasants to keep him comfortable so by pushing this Bible on them gives them hope that even though this is not the life they planned, they'll be rewarded in the next one.

The answer is that they (we) are not the product of a single experience but the extension of a consciousness that is not bound by our reality or our form and has existed before and after this world and beyond.

This line is very much in agreement with those who study Buddhism, or whom believe in reincarnation.  Which gives credence to the theory that may be we are all right.  Maybe, just maybe, there is this "place" that we go to and stay.  Like a hotel.  Now to get in there, I need to pay.  I can pay with american money, euros, pesos, or fruits and berries but either way if I pay I will get in.  A rough analogy but hopefully you understand what I am trying to say.

Interesting post.

The question remains...does your dog have a "purpose"? Elephants? Monkeys? Trees? Air? Bacteria? In the scientific sense, yes, but not in the subjective sense you're looking at. What purpose do we have? Why do we NEED a purpose? If you were to suddenly find out humans have no purpose, what would you do? Kill yourself?

We must have a purpose.  A driving force if you will.  Otherwise, why do you do what you do?  Why get up in the morning? To go to work. Why work? To make money. Why do you need money? To buy food. Why do you need food? To survive. I don't mean purpose as in "Why I am here", I mean it as in everything we do has a purpose.  Every organism known to us has a purpose.  When we lose sight of that purpose, we begin to falter.  Now some can attach to faith and regain their focus by aligning with another (some say greater) purpose, others cannot and this is when they fall into depression. Which can result tragically in death by suicide, drug abuse, or abusing others.  Well, that is getting off track, but I was trying to say if you don't have a purpose than why are you still here? Because yes, when people lose that purpose of getting out of bed and striving for something, that is when they kill themselves.

Moreover, you mention reward...why do we need to be rewarded from just being? Seems foolish. Would you be a bad person if you were to find out there was no reward for living? Would you be "better" if there was a sure reward at the end?

Not foolish at all.  Even science defines our brain as a "reward-based cognitive system".  Everything the human brain is geared to do is based on rewards.  Think about it for a minute.  We work to get paid. We are charitable to feel good.  We eat to satisfy our desire (not hunger, otherwise McDonalds wouldn't be nearly as successful as it is if we just ate to survive). I remember a study in college that was about the rewards system for the human.  For 7 days they tracked every single action from sleep to work to eating to resting or recreation, even breathing and motor responses such as blinking (rewarded with sight) and swallowing (rewarded with breath).  For each they had to list what the reward was.  Everything we do is based on reward, so it is only natural that whatever we perceive to be the afterlife is also reward-based because we can easily comprehend that.

One of my favorite Twain quotes: “I do not fear death. I had been dead for billions and billions of years before I was born, and had not suffered the slightest inconvenience from it.”

This exact quote hung in my dorm room for three years and now hangs on a wall in my home.  However, I interpret it to be more a "why worry about tomorrow when today is here and now" type of quote.

Just as your dog dies, and is put in the ground, and his/her consciousness ends, so will yours. I don't know why this makes everyone so uncomfortable.

I don't think this makes anyone here uncomfortable, they wouldn't be participating if it did.  And yes, just like our pets we will one day perish. I think everyone is well aware of that fact.  Whether or not conciousness ends though, well that is the unknown.  Unfortunately, those whom can answer with certainty can no longer communicate with us.  So I guess we will just have to wait and see.



Now, I am not a tinfoil hat wearing, X-Files junkie who listens to Art Bell like it is the gospel.  However, I agree with Jodie Foster's character in Contact, "if there is nothing else out there, that's an awful lot of wasted space".  I have heard tons of theories, everything from we are just a giant snow globe on some lifeforms' desk to we are actually an alien race that crashed on earth millions of years ago.  There are more eccentric stories about aliens and creationism than there are people here most likely. 

I do believe there is some "higher power".  Do I believe it as it is written in the Bible, no I do not.  Humans, though it can be proven with some degree of certainty that we evolved from the amoeba and eventually became homo sapien, are very unique.  There is no other life form on this planet that has that ... consciousness, I guess is the word I am looking for ... that we do.  Theologians will profess that this is proof of a God.  Science says this was the result of need to adapt millions of years ago and we "developed" to what we are today.  Lately, I have read several good books explaining how science actually proves the existence of God.  They have not been powerful enough to make me believe, however they do cause me to stop and think.  I always seek the logical explanation.  When people "die and come back to life" and talk of seeing the bright light, it seems logical that was the operating table lights.  When they speak of transcending this world and being in another, it seems logical that the brain could not understand what happened and that was the easiest way to comprehend it.  Our mind creates "parallel" stories so that we can deal with certain scenarios.  This is evidenced in how "eyewitness" reports vary and how people who suffered great traumatic injury or experiences can cope and move on.

I will say their is something "special" within us.  If anyone here has been/is a nurse or doctor or EMT than you may understand.  In NJ we have volunteer fire and ems and I volunteered on my local rescue squad because it looked great on college applications. It also led to me becoming a combat medic when I enlisted in the Army to pay for that college.  I have had three people "pass on" in front of me. I can remember each incident clearly, and the change in the eyes is most compelling.  Unlike when you go hunting and kill the deer and it dies after you've caught up to it, there is a ... vacancy or exit of some sort that I cannot describe with words.  Based solely on these three experiences, I personally believe there is something beyond this life as we understand it.

And in the end, maybe every one of us is right.  I am really not sure.  All I know is that I am still young and open to any ideas that seem logical.  And until I leave this world as I know it, I will always be curious to learn more and gain a greater or different understanding.

Thanks again Diane and everyone else who is posting here, this is truly an educational experience.  It is a pleasure to be able to read people debating thoughts without being immature or rude and condescending to those with different views.

[ben says]

I see there has been a lot of posting since I was last here. Give me some time and hopefully I can adequately respond.

[KuroiKetsunoHana]

How is it that you know those who had these experiences had malfunctioning brains?  I think that is a personal view is it not?

you seem to've read and quoted my post in the half a minute before i fixed it to avoid exactly this misunderstanding--in your typical near-death experience, one's brain is by definition malfunctioning due to lack ov oxygen, weird chemical levels, and other quirks ov a body on the way out the back door.

besides, most ov us can't take a nap without tripping balls--and we realize that what we see while sleeping isn't objectively real.  why should we consider the things people see at half past coma o'clock any different?

[BridgeTroll]

For me... it is not a question of what I believe... or what others believe or disbelieve.  It is simply a matter of respecting those beliefs.  Having lived in and actively interacted with the peoples of many different regions... I have asked about their religion and beliefs in a curious and interested manner and always with respect.  Most are eager to share their creation story or various aspects of their religion.  The same holds true in this country when attending the wedding or funeral of someone of a denomination different from what I know.  Growing up roman Catholic... my first Baptist church experience was like something from another planet.  I recently attended a wedding at an Arabic Orthodox church(not sure of actual denomination) but it was very interesting and different.

The bottom line is... the beliefs of others(or non belief)... are theirs... and should be respected.   

$0.02

[KuroiKetsunoHana]

"I would rather believe in the story of the bible and find it to be false, than to not believe in it and find out that it is true".  Logic like that I cannot argue with.

didn't realize people were still betting on Pascal.  funny how we keep applyïng it only to christianity.  i'd rather believe in the story ov the Baghavad-Gita and find it to be false, than to not believe in it and find it to be true--but there's not much evidence for either, so it makes no nevermind.

[ben says]

I think you're confusing traditions and beliefs....

Why should we respect beliefs? Sure, taking your hat inside a Temple or not talking during a service or showing up to a Catholic funeral even if your'e Muslim is the "right" thing to do...

But should we really respect that Mormons excluded blacks until 1978? Or that they baptize dead Holocaust victims? Should we respect that the Catholic church goes on trips to Africa and preaches abstinence and refuses to encourage condom use? How about churches that tell their members (which the sheep go on to tell others) that global warming is scientific speculation?

Stupid beliefs lead to stupid actions (or inactions). I refuse to respect someone who gives an inane reason behind a racist/stupid/unjustified/wrong act or thought. Pointing to a book and saying "this is why I'm saying/doing what I'm saying" deserves zero respect.

[NotNow]

LOL...youth is a wonderful thing.