Views on Heaven, is it real or a fantasy?

[Starbuck]

"She stresses that to believe in heaven you have to make "a leap of faith" â€" but in what other field in life do we abandon all need for evidence? Why do it in one so crucial to your whole sense of existence?"

Indeed, the very idea that we have an existence requires "a leap of faith". For all you know you are butterfly having a dream that you are a human.  (Read Kierkegaard)

Belief of what happens after death cannot be examined using objective scientific methods. We cannot "know" rationally what will happen. Therein lies the distinction between "knowing" and "believing". Matters involving our immediate observation require assumptions of an orderly universe, confidence in our observations and ability to process information, and confidence that it exists in some sort of orderly context. Matters beyond our immediate observation require even greater assumptions.

Religion is about "belief", not about direct knowledge. It may be a belief predicated upon common assumptions, on traditional teachings, on literary interpretation and so forth. But it is very much a matter of "belief". That is why we Christians say, "I believe...", rather than "I know..."

[Ocklawaha]

HEAVY MAN!

Ben you obviously have never found my poppy patch or you would believe in heaven. LOL.

[Cheshire Cat]

"She stresses that to believe in heaven you have to make "a leap of faith" â€" but in what other field in life do we abandon all need for evidence? Why do it in one so crucial to your whole sense of existence?"

Indeed, the very idea that we have an existence requires "a leap of faith". For all you know you are butterfly having a dream that you are a human.  (Read Kierkegaard)

Belief of what happens after death cannot be examined using objective scientific methods. We cannot "know" rationally what will happen. Therein lies the distinction between "knowing" and "believing". Matters involving our immediate observation require assumptions of an orderly universe, confidence in our observations and ability to process information, and confidence that it exists in some sort of orderly context. Matters beyond our immediate observation require even greater assumptions.

Religion is about "belief", not about direct knowledge. It may be a belief predicated upon common assumptions, on traditional teachings, on literary interpretation and so forth. But it is very much a matter of "belief". That is why we Christians say, "I believe...", rather than "I know..."

Who is the she in she stresses?

[Cheshire Cat]

Zactly Ock!  lmao

Good insights Starbuck, but does your statement only apply to Christian beliefs.  What about other religions?

[Cheshire Cat]

I believe there is something after this life.  To me, to not believe would take away any purpose of living now.  Just to be rewarded with nothingness, a black void?  I cannot even fathom what that next stage, and I am not sure I am supposed to comprehend that at this stage.

As for gods and churches and religions, I choose to use them to find hope in some things.  I use them to try understand why things happen beyond my realm of explanation.

I do not attend any organized worship or religious services, however a very good friend goes to a well known church downtown that seems to attract a lot of flack told me something that I liked: "I would rather believe in the story of the bible and find it to be false, than to not believe in it and find out that it is true".  Logic like that I cannot argue with.  I think everyone believes in something, be it a light bulb or sun or deity.  It helps us explain what we have yet to understand

Indeed, it is your right to approach belief and this world reality in the way that not only makes the most sense to you, but also in a way that gives you comfort.  I have heard the comment about belief in the bible as a safe bet, almost a no harm done sort of position to take in case some part of us survives death.  The flaw I find in the statement is that is stems from fear and that comes from much of what the bible teaches about a wrathful god and afterlife. To me that belief does do harm to many.  It's a default position, a better be safe than sorry stance to protect oneself if indeed the bible were true and descriptions of an after life were accurate you would literally suffer a hell of a mess if you didn't believe in the bible prior to death.  I personally reject this notion based in fear.

A simple question for me to atheists would be what harm is there in believing in a divinity as long as those beliefs are not imposed upon others? If indeed there is nothing but oblivion after death what harm does belief do if  it does not infringe on your life or the life of others who think differently? 

For believers and non believers in death they will find what they "believed" they would find at the time of their passing. Then they will awake to their own consciousness and what it means at the point they are ready to understand.  Some will experience oblivion until their physically unbound consciousness awakes, others will see Jesus, others will see Buddha, others will see relatives, others will see angels.  Whatever we perceive to be the realities of death will be what we initially experience but not the entirety of what is.  For any belief system that is predicated on consciousness as expressed in a single physical existence one might ask, how would a small child have any concept of what to expect after life?  The answer is that they (we) are not the product of a single experience but the extension of a consciousness that is not bound by our reality or our form and has existed before and after this world and beyond.  Knowledge is carried forward and eternal, so even a child will have a reference of "experiences" to apply after death as will those who are living this life and still remain "asleep" when it comes to knowing the reality of their unlimited consciousness and divinity. 

[ben says]

HEAVY MAN!

Ben you obviously have never found my poppy patch or you would believe in heaven. LOL.

The closest I ever came to believing in a god/higher power was during an acid trip. Then, post trip, I had a revelation. Religious belief and experience has a direct correlation to a chemically altered brain state (whether those chemicals are synthetic or organic, well....).

I believe there is something after this life.  To me, to not believe would take away any purpose of living now.  Just to be rewarded with nothingness, a black void?  I cannot even fathom what that next stage, and I am not sure I am supposed to comprehend that at this stage.

Interesting post.

The question remains...does your dog have a "purpose"? Elephants? Monkeys? Trees? Air? Bacteria? In the scientific sense, yes, but not in the subjective sense you're looking at. What purpose do we have? Why do we NEED a purpose? If you were to suddenly find out humans have no purpose, what would you do? Kill yourself?

Moreover, you mention reward...why do we need to be rewarded from just being? Seems foolish. Would you be a bad person if you were to find out there was no reward for living? Would you be "better" if there was a sure reward at the end?

One of my favorite Twain quotes: “I do not fear death. I had been dead for billions and billions of years before I was born, and had not suffered the slightest inconvenience from it.”

Just as your dog dies, and is put in the ground, and his/her consciousness ends, so will yours. I don't know why this makes everyone so uncomfortable.

Cheshire, I did read the whole article. It was hardly an "article", in the news-sense. It was more a bunch of subjective and anecdotal thoughts on heaven. Varying viewpoints, sure, but all equally nuts.

So may I ask what sources or personal experiences you are basing your judgements upon as your comments seem to indicate your ideas are based in a single religious view regarding a heaven, earth or devil. 

My thoughts on religion come from three things: (a) formal schooling (b) informal schooling (c) travel. I've taken tons of religious classes in undergrad. It was a minor. Informal schooling: reading about Jesus, Gilgamesh, Hammurabi, Allah, Buddha, Tibetans and Native Americans etc etc yada yada. Travel: 30 countries and counting, rich, poor, sick, healthy. All of that synthesized: while the details vary, humans/cultures/civilizations have the same needs, uses, and justifications for religion. The underlying purpose is always the same.

Why would an organic creature need to know the answers to these questions in order to live and die?

Because are brains are too highly developed. I know that answer won't placate any of you, but it is what it is.

[Cheshire Cat]

^No one needs placating here.  I am enjoying the discussion and differing perspectives about just being human.

Now as to all the comments in the article or discussion on the CNN beliefs site, you call them equally nuts according to your personal standards.  The difficulty with life and perceptions is that what you might see as nuts others may see as inspirational and the truth is both are equally sane in their perceptions according to their own beliefs and views.  I am surprised if you read the CNN piece that you did not acknowledge that not all folks who believe in a heaven think those who don't believe will be excluded.  In fairness not all do. 

Clarify if you might what you mean when you say the underlying purpose is the same?  It sounds as if you have read and studied quite a bit of theology and religion as well as traveled widely.  Of course reading and studying about an experience is still not the same as being immersed in the spiritual traditions and cultures of others.  If you have spent extensive time actually experiencing the rituals and religious practices of other cultures, please share.

To your last statement,  Why are our brains too highly developed?  What evolutionary process would cause that development if it was unneeded for human survival?  What evolutionary need is there for the human brain to question existence or reality, life or death?  There must be a purpose for the brain developing the ability to question our existence and the universe is there not?   

Interesting about your acid trip. Can't wait to hear my old hippie friend Ock comment on this. lol
Some in science have said that the chemical trigger of acid, may in fact be an artificial method of engaging a part of the brain that allows for spiritual experiences.  The question is are those experiences born of the brain or is the brain chemistry altered enough that it can open up to information outside of its form.  If this sounds nuts at first glance consider this.  Today we accept that we can talk on cellphones and use computers to communicate and gather information.  That is because science has learned the mechanics of how this information can be sent and received.  Perhaps the truth is that science has yet to understand the brains ability to send and receive both information and enlightenment.  In my experience this is the truth of the matter.

[ronchamblin]

Someone brought up the question as to why we seek to know about our purpose and about  a possible god .... or something of that nature.  To me, it seems that as a consequence of our enhanced brain abilities over the “others”, humans seek order, that is, when our lives allow time for it.  Therefore we seek answers to any questions we can imagine.  It is natural for humans to embrace challenges, and to experiment with limits.  The problem arrives when too many individuals, by way of ignorance and irrational thinking, arrive at beliefs totally unsupported by evidence .... beliefs involving revealed religions, witches etc.   

But.. yes, absolutely, there are many beliefs regarding many religions and gods and heavens and hells.  And they are all bunk, having been developed as a consequence of human needs, allowed via ignorance, and perpetuated by irrational thinking, and those who gain from the nonsense.  The babysitter or grandmother, duped by earlier irrationals, passed to the child the same nonsense about gods and demons and heavens and hells.  Enough!  There is no god or heaven except in the minds of those who have been taught since birth to believe that they exist.   

All evidence allows me to say that we, each of us, are nothing more than animals.... living temporary lifespans on this earth ... just as the insect, the rat, the fish, the bird, and the elephant.  To think that there is a heaven, or that our consciousness might travel or wander outside of our physical brains, or outside of our bodies, is only a wish, or a longing......as suggested in the article posted by ben says. 

When our body ends its tour of living, and when our brain no longer receives the necessary nourishment via the blood supply, the physiology of the brain no longer allows the process of consciousness.  And therefore, there is nothing remaining in the dead individual’s body or brain other than cells and organs which will soon decompose and return to the earth, from which they came.  End of journey.  No energy exists within the dead individual.  No soul existed in the live individual, nor in the dead...  nor is any energy transmitted from the dead at the moment of dying.
     
Consciousness?  I’ve seen absolutely no evidence that any form of one’s consciousness can exist outside of the body.  Can anyone provide evidence?  Consciousness emerges within the brain as a consequence of electrochemical activity within the brain, and the process of consciousness remains within the confines of the brain.

Consciousness is a process .... a state..... located within the physiology of the brain.  The conscious state represents the center of the individual, the “I” of the individual, and functions to allow the individual to interact successfully within its environment.

Any suggestion that an individual’s consciousness wanders somehow outside of the physical brain has absolutely no evidentiary support.  Anyone believing that consciousness does wander, might also believe in heaven, and in one or more of the various gods available to the human population .... beliefs akin to those in earlier times when some believed in witches, that the world was flat, or that Zeus was something or someone of importance.

Any wandering of consciousness to areas outside of the brain or the body would have to involve some kind of energy.  Nothing happens without some kind of energy.  All energy, even the very weak varieties, can be detected by various sensors and monitors.  There is no mysterious energy which escapes the individual, certainly not in the form of a “consciousness”.

The only energy that exits the individual is in the form of heat, and in the form of physical movement .... speech..... locomotion.... physical work.  Are there any other forms of energy which exits the human body?  I might have missed something.

Why does there have to be a heaven?  Why does there have to be a purpose in living?  Why does there have to be a reason for us humans being here?  We are exactly like the insects and the elephants.  We are animals.  We die and disappear just as the cat or the dog.
   
Our short lives on this little earth should cause each of us to be kind to one another, to appreciate the wonders of nature and the human community ....  to do good in this life, as there is no future life.  Once one escapes the illusion of another life, one can live better, and enjoy, this life.  This life is the only one each of us will have.  Treat it with care.  Do not waste this life in an effort to prepare for another, as it surely does not exist.

I rest my case..... for a spell.  The mean old atheist will be back.       
       

[Cheshire Cat]

Well goodness gracious Ron, I was wondering why it took you so long to chime in. lol   

I am glad your struggling human brain has found "order" in your view of the world and our existence. For you there clearly is nothing beyond your organic form and brain function and that's fine by me. No one is trying to change your mind about your beliefs but I think it is interesting that in some of the discussion so far there has been a need on the part of some non believers to call others views, insane, crazy or bunk. If a point or view has value, there is no need to do anything but state that view and it will stand on it's own merit.  What purpose is there to impose a provocative/negative descriptive on views different than your own unless the aim is to make the views of others easier to ridicule.  That only ends up with conversations that devolve into your an exchange of your wrong, no, your wrong, your ignorant, no you are ignorant and it goes downhill from there.     There is no value in that type of exchange.

I guess it never occurs to you that you may be mistaken about any of your views nor question at any level the conclusions about life you have yourself drawn.  It's one thing to state a view but quite another to do so while concluding others beliefs are bunk.  Unless you are really willing to "listen" to others ideas and perceptions what is the point of discussion? 

I hate to break it to you Ron, but you don't have all the answers and your perceptions are not the only ones that have validity or value. That holds true for myself and others. Try a little humility in your approach and thinking.  I fear your mind is closed to all views and ideas that do not match your own and that is unfortunate because when you approach any discourse on a variety of topics your aim is simply to push those opinions on the ignorant world around you. That is no different than a religious fanatic pushing their reality on others, which you greatly disdain  Why don't you see that?  Forgive me for saying so but doing this is not meanness it's just misinformed and bred of an ego that place your views above others. You are a well read man but that does not make you all knowing.  None of us are. 

Now to a specific point, What is the evolutionary reason for man to develop a thinking process that questions his own existence?  You say it is a natural thing.  Is it?  Why?  What makes it natural?  How can you prove it?

To another point, how can you prove that consciousness does not exist outside of human form?  What is your proof?

[Debbie Thompson]

Very interesting discussion. Downright depressing in places, as I live in hope.  I have said before to unbelievers, if I'm wrong, I have a dirt nap to look forward to, and I won't know the difference.  If you are wrong, I don't want to be you.  I choose to live with the blessings of God here, and in the hope of heaven later.

Oh, and Ben Says, being good doesn't get you into Heaven.  You can't be good enough, no matter how hard you try. because we humans will always fail somewhere along the line.  Ephesians 2:8.  For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God.  We don't earn salvation, God gives it freely to those who make that leap of faith being discussed earlier.  He covers us with His grace, because he knows we can't be perfect, no matter how hard we try.  (And I know, some of us try harder than others.  :-) )

Yes, this is one of those things you have to take on faith.  God doesn't have to prove anything to us.  it's beyond presumption to expect Him to.  Hey, Creator of the Universe, of all that is seen and unseen, prove to  me you exist.  Really?  Jesus said to "doubting Thomas" in John 20:29, "Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed; blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed."

[ronchamblin]

I appreciate what you have said Diane, and I apologize for being unable, so far, to soften my opinions.  I’ll work on a more appropriate way to convey my opinions.  And Debbie.... you are so far into .... well... you are heavily “into” your religion, and your god.   

But given the nature of the contrast between my thinking, and the thinking of a believer in one of the revealed religions, or of a believer in heaven, or of a believer in a god, it is difficult for me to express anything other than my beliefs.  Surely one must state his or her beliefs, else what is the use of discussion? 

I think the problem occurs because my beliefs are so far from the beliefs of many Jacksonvillians, and of some on this forum.  My confidence in my beliefs leaves little room for softening the message.  What should I do?  Lie about my beliefs?

My statements suggesting that those who believe in revealed religions suffer from ignorance and irrational thinking is somewhat blunt.  However, I sense that my statements would be supported as being true by most scientists and academics. 

My statements will not be supported by many Jacksonvillians.  I suspect that many Jacksonvillians will be offended by my statements.  This is unfortunate because I suspect that my statements, if voted on by most academics and scientists, would be found to be true.

Or, perhaps I should say, if the truth be known, my statements would be found to be true, and that it would finally be known that no gods exist, and that there is no heaven. 

I will entertain the idea of abandoning my effort to convey the truth according to my understanding, and live the lie and the myth along with others.

I suspect that there are some on this forum ... well, maybe one or two, who find my “scorched earth policy” somewhat refreshing.

The problem is that I am touching on beliefs held close by many, and they resent being told that they are ignorant and irrational.  As I’ve said before, there is nothing wrong with being ignorant, as one cannot know everything.  I am certainly ignorant about many things.  Of course, it is best not to be too ignorant, as an abundance of it might allow irrational beliefs and behavior.     

[Cheshire Cat]

Debbie, I guess your views are drawn on Christian doctrine?  I ask because of the biblical quotes which serve to support a Christian view but what about the views of believers who stand outside of the Christian discipline?  Do you feel the Christian view applies to all of humanity? 

While I will readily agree that human beings are flawed, I cannot support the notion that one must be perfect or a believer in order to experience grace or divinity.  Living a good and loving life that includes caring and generosity for community and the needs for others is enough for much of the world.  It really is not reasonable in my opinion to impose a single belief on the entirety of humanity that implies that the understanding of one person or group is the only valid one.  I know the thought of a rule book for living a good life is appealing but whose rulebook is right?  It depends on who you ask and the most interesting answers are usually provide by those who live without a book of rules but in harmony with all around them. 

[Cheshire Cat]

I appreciate what you have said Diane, and I apologize for being unable, so far, to soften my opinions.  I’ll work on a more appropriate way to convey my opinions.  And Debbie.... you are so far into .... well... you are heavily “into” your religion, and your god.   

But given the nature of the contrast between my thinking, and the thinking of a believer in one of the revealed religions, or of a believer in heaven, or of a believer in a god, it is difficult for me to express anything other than my beliefs.  Surely one must state his or her beliefs, else what is the use of discussion? 

I think the problem occurs because my beliefs are so far from the beliefs of many Jacksonvillians, and of some on this forum.  My confidence in my beliefs leaves little room for softening the message.  What should I do?  Lie about my beliefs?

My statements suggesting that those who believe in revealed religions suffer from ignorance and irrational thinking is somewhat blunt.  However, I sense that my statements would be supported as being true by most scientists and academics. 

My statements will not be supported by many Jacksonvillians.  I suspect that many Jacksonvillians will be offended by my statements.  This is unfortunate because I suspect that my statements, if voted on by most academics and scientists, would be found to be true.

Or, perhaps I should say, if the truth be known, my statements would be found to be true, and that it would finally be known that no gods exist, and that there is no heaven. 

I will entertain the idea of abandoning my effort to convey the truth according to my understanding, and live the lie and the myth along with others.

I suspect that there are some on this forum ... well, maybe one or two, who find my “scorched earth policy” somewhat refreshing.

The problem is that I am touching on beliefs held close by many, and they resent being told that they are ignorant and irrational.  As I’ve said before, there is nothing wrong with being ignorant, as one cannot know everything.  I am certainly ignorant about many things.  Of course, it is best not to be too ignorant, as an abundance of it might allow irrational behavior.     

Ron, in your own words. "One cannot know everything"!  Not knowing everything is not the same as ignorance or irrationality.  Not even the scientists and academics you look to in order to justify or support your views have all the answers, I mean they are just animals right?  lol

Meanwhile, you did not answer either of the last two questions I posed to you.  Why is that?

[ronchamblin]

Oh .... sorry... I forgot the two questions.

Now to a specific point, What is the evolutionary reason for man to develop a thinking process that questions his own existence?  You say it is a natural thing.  Is it?  Why?  What makes it natural?  How can you prove it?



A proof on this kind of question is impossible of course.  But I can, before my beer affects my thinking too much, try an answer. 


The thinking process evolving within man involved an increased ability to solve problems, the trait which improved the likelihood of man’s survival as an individual, and therefore as a species.  As the general intelligence increased in man, there occurred also an increased ability to think abstractly, and to ponder difficult questions.


It seems probable that some of those questions would relate to man’s existence and purpose. 


Given that man achieved the habit of thinking in this manner of complexity and ability, then one might suggest that it became not only “natural” for him to do so, but “natural” for him to question aspects of his existence. 



To another point, how can you prove that consciousness does not exist outside of human form?  What is your proof?



Again, this kind of thing cannot be proven.  All we can do is believe according to the best evidences we have, or do not have. 


I will believe that consciousness does not exist outside of the human form until some evidence causes me to believe it does.


It would be more appropriate for me to ask you to prove the existence of the  phenomenon, as it seems easier to prove an existence, than to prove non-existence. 


In any case, the existence of consciousness outside of the human would cause some kind of detectible energy in the environment.  Any transmission of data requires some kind of energy.  Until some kind of consciousness energy emanating from the human is measured and detected, or the consequences of it is observed, how can anyone believe in its existence?


This is similar to a situation wherein I observe that there is no chair in room “A”, but you say there is a chair in room “A”.   You seem to say that there is a chair in room “A” (consciousness outside of the human form), even though there is no evidence of it.  I ask you to show me the evidence of the chair, but you cannot. You say.....  but I know its there. 


I ask you if you see evidence of consciousness outside of the human form.  You say no .... but you know its there. 


There has never been evidence of any kind of consciousness outside of the human form.  I suspect that what appears to be evidence, actually exists only within the mind of the one claiming the evidence.     

[Debbie Thompson]

Diane, yes, based on Christian faith.  Although I have often said, we may be surprised by whom we meet in Heaven.  One of my favorite little poems, which I cut out and put in my scrapbook, goes like this.  Don't know the author, but it goes... I dreamed Death came the other night, and Heaven's gate swung wide.  With kindly grace, an angel came and ushered me inside.  And there, to my astonishment, stood folks I'd deemed unfit, of little worth.  Angry words rose to my lips, but never were set free, for every face showed stunned surprise.  No one expected me. 

I live my faith on earth, and hope for Heaven.  I leave it up to God who else gets there.  I just beg Him to include me in the population!

Ron, your beliefs, or rather your lack of them, don't offend me. I feel badly for you, although I'm sure you don't want my concern.  :-)