Poll: Sons of Confederate Veterans wants old Duval County Armory; Yes or No?

[JaxUnicorn]

i think you can surmise my response, but you know it's hard to even know if the city is following its own rules when you cannot get the most basic information about how city business is conducted.

the city has got to do better and quit talking out of both sides of their mouth. the existing ordinance does instruct to have "the least intensive impact" on properties in historic areas, but then gives the MCC Chief the authority to interpret and execute as she deems fit.

my newbie impression is that a lot of city staff people have more power than the city council, maybe even the mayor.  there definitely is not a shared vision to improve the city...it's all about each person's little power play.

+1

[Ocklawaha]

"Maybe" leaning "no". Besides the issues with the group's agenda, we shouldn't just give such an important structure over to any organization without seeing if there are other takers who can provide a better deal for the city and its property.

What would that 'agenda' be Tacachale? I believe you will find that the SCV accepts members of any race, color or creed. They do occasionally show up at Klan rally's but when they do it is to protest the Klan and the use of Confederate banners as a symbol of hate rather then one-time Southern nationalist dreams.

The city is still struggling with racial issues.  The only people who don't seem to think so are the ones who have lived here all of their lives. 

There is a high school named after a KKK leader and it is predominately filled with children of color.

The issue is too sensitive for this -- maybe some day, but not today.

IMHO

THE KLAN CONNECTION:

During Reconstruction, Union Leagues were formed across the South after 1867 as working auxiliaries of the Republican Party. They mobilized freedmen to register to vote and to vote Republican. They discussed political issues, promoted civic projects, and mobilized workers opposed to certain employers. Most branches were segregated but there were a few that were racially integrated. The leaders of the all-black units were mostly urban blacks from the North, who had never been slaves.

Forrest described the original purpose of the Klan as "a protective political military organization... The members are sworn to recognize the government of the United States... Its objects originally were protection against Loyal Leagues and the Grand Army of the Republic, In addition to aiding Confederate widows and orphans of the war..." many members of the new group began to use force to oppose the extension of voting rights to blacks and to resist Reconstruction era measures for ending segregation. In 1869, Forrest, disagreeing with its increasingly violent tactics, ordered the Klan to disband, stating that it was "being perverted from its original honorable and patriotic purposes, becoming injurious instead of subservient to the public peace."  Forrest testified before the Congressional investigation on Klan activities on June 27, 1871. Forrest denied membership.  The committee also noted, "The natural tendency of all such organizations is to violence and crime; hence it was that General Forrest and other men of influence in the state, by the exercise of their moral power, induced them to disband.” 



A MAN CHANGED:

In these latter years of tribulation the prayers of Mary Montgomery Forrest were answered when Bedford turned to the religion which always had been so large a part of her life. On the streets of Memphis one day in 1875 Forrest met the Reverend Raliegh White, the same who as a lieutenant colonel had long commanded the old Fourteenth Tennessee Cavalry, and who now, as he told his general, was in Texas “preaching the word of God.” After a short conversation the two stepped into the quiet of the parlor of a bank near by, to kneel together in prayer. Not long afterward, on November 14, 1875, a calm Sabbath evening, the General walked into the Court Street Cumberland Presbyterian Church, Mrs. Forrest on his arm, and told the minister, the Reverend G. T. Stainback, that he had decided to accept the Christian faith. “There was no half way of doing things with Forrest,” the minister said afterward in a lecture, “and this is the way he entered the religious faith. … The news of his conversion had gone abroad and the church was filled the following Sunday morning. When I called for new members he folded his arms and deliberately walked down the aisle to the altar. I thought then that I had never seen such a magnificent man as General Forrest that day!”  SOURCE, BOOK : “‘First with the Most’ Forrest”  by Robert Selph Henry.

CIVIL RIGHTS AND EQUALITY:

A convention and BBQ was held by the Independent Order of Pole-Bearers Association (a precursor to the NAACP) at the fairgrounds of Memphis, five miles east of the city. An invitation to speak was conveyed to General Nathan Bedford Forrest, one of the city's most prominent citizens, and one of the foremost cavalry commanders in the late War Between the States. This was the first invitation granted to a white man to speak at this gathering. The invitation's purpose, one of the leaders said, was to extend peace, joy, and union, and following a brief welcoming address a Miss Lou Lewis, daughter of an officer of the Pole-Bearers, brought forward flowers and assurances that she conveyed them as a token of good will. After Miss Lewis handed him the flowers, General Forrest responded with a short speech that, in the contemporary pages of the Memphis Appeal, evinces Forrest's racial open-mindedness that seemed to have been growing in him.

“Ladies and Gentlemen I accept the flowers as a memento of reconciliation between the white and colored races of the southern states. I accept it more particularly as it comes from a colored lady, for if there is any one on God's earth who loves the ladies I believe it is myself. ( Immense applause and laughter.) I came here with the jeers of some white people, who think that I am doing wrong. I believe I can exert some influence, and do much to assist the people in strengthening fraternal relations, and shall do all in my power to elevate every man to depress none. (Applause.) I want to elevate you to take positions in law offices, in stores, on farms, and wherever you are capable of going. I have not said anything about politics today. I don't propose to say anything about politics. You have a right to elect whom you please; vote for the man you think best, and I think, when that is done, you and I are freemen. Do as you consider right and honest in electing men for office. I did not come here to make you a long speech, although invited to do so by you. I am not much of a speaker, and my business prevented me from preparing myself. I came to meet you as friends, and welcome you to the white people. I want you to come nearer to us. When I can serve you I will do so. We have but one flag, one country; let us stand together. We may differ in color, but not in sentiment Many things have been said about me which are wrong, and which white and black persons here, who stood by me through the war, can contradict. Go to work, be industrious, live honestly and act truly, and when you are oppressed I'll come to your relief. I thank you, ladies and gentlemen, for this opportunity you have afforded me to be with you, and to assure you that I am with you in heart and in hand. (Prolonged applause.)”

Whereupon N. B. Forrest again thanked Miss Lewis for the bouquet and then gave her a kiss on the cheek. Such a kiss was unheard of in the society of those days, in 1875, but it showed a token of respect and friendship between the general and the black community and did much to promote harmony among the citizens of Memphis.

I believe if we are really to standup for education and tolerance we should be bold enough to celebrate not just the Confederacy, but how many of its former leaders paved a way to a new and accepting south. It would be very cool if the high school, the SCV and historical associations of all colors could band together to publish or produce a treatise on reconciliation and truth as it related to Forrest.

[Demosthenes]

Perhaps Forrest gets a bad rap, BUT between the Ft Pillow incident and being the Grandwizard, and just to mention that the school was named for a confederate general specifically because it flew in the face of the civil rights movement, I think renaming the school is an acceptable thing.

Yes, the early KKK ALSO hated carpetbaggers and other northern scallowags, but growing concern over the large number of former slaves holding public office was always a driving issue.

And oh, BTW, he wasn't even from the area!!!

The man neednt be stricken from the history books, and certainly its great that he repented later in life, but does he need to be celebrated for this late life act of contrition?

Personally I was a fan of naming it Speicher High.

[Non-RedNeck Westsider]

Can someone try and explain to me why this is so difficult?

The city owns the building and should already have, in-hand, some sort of cost estimate to not only repair the damage, but also have some sort of semi-detailed maintenance plan and it's average running costs.

No basis on the numbers I'm using, but this seems too easy....

How much will it cost and how long will it take to repair the damage?  450 days and $3.2MM.  OK, great.  We'll adjust the lease accordingly.  How about a 4 years at a $1/yr with and automatic 4 yr renewal if the repairs are complete and then 3 more 4 year options - as long as the building is maintained in fair condition.

It's the same potential time-frame (20 years) with a solid push on putting the building back into usable condition.

[vicupstate]

While we are discussing city owned properties that remain unused, what is the status of the St. John's Church building at Hemming Plaza? 

Given the history of Geneaur (sp?) Hall and other such properties, this sounds like a nightmare in the making and an insider deal.   

Remember the Horse arena out at Cecil Field?  Please make sure ANY organization that is given a lease can show on paper (audited too) that they have the financial wherewithal to complete the renovations. 

[sheclown]

While we are discussing city owned properties that remain unused, what is the status of the St. John's Church building at Hemming Plaza? 

Given the history of Geneaur (sp?) Hall and other such properties, this sounds like a nightmare in the making and an insider deal.   

Remember the Horse arena out at Cecil Field?  Please make sure ANY organization that is given a lease can show on paper (audited too) that they have the financial wherewithal to complete the renovations. 

and regular inspections and audits of work

and a revert-er clause if it doesn't follow its plan

[Ocklawaha]

Perhaps Forrest gets a bad rap, BUT between the Ft Pillow incident and being the Grandwizard, and just to mention that the school was named for a confederate general specifically because it flew in the face of the civil rights movement, I think renaming the school is an acceptable thing.

Having lived through that era, I don't think the Civil Rights Movement was even on the radar screen at the UDC or the City at that time. What WAS on the radar was the 'Civil War Centennial,' a massive tourism influx throughout the south and the chance for Florida to capture some of that Yankee green. 

As for Fort Pillow, the Federal Investigators (Not Confederate Investigators)  were never sure enough about the 'facts' to make any of the charges stick. There was not enough evidence to prove guilt. Certainly it was some sort of Cluster F**K. Refusal of a surrender demand, surrendering soldiers mixed with civilians shooting back at their pursuers, gun boats moving in under a flag of truce (illegal) and troops shifting to meet said gunboats under a flag of truce (also illegal), etc.

The modern historical community that has been rewriting the stories of the entire Antebellum Era and redefining the war and its leaders in the light of civil rights, political correctness and tolerance are equally guilty of gross misrepresentation. Witness the recent Lincoln Movie, and the rise of a 'Lincoln god-myth,' each author heaping more prose upon the works of the one before him. 'The Real Lincoln,' (also the name of an excellent book) when one goes back to what the original accounts tell us, was quite unlikable. He was in great fear of losing his reelection, and had he not used the Republican Party and the Army to arrest half of Maryland or Missouri, or supported secession of counties to form new northern states, he would probably be found in the ash pit of forgotten leaders.

Yes, the early KKK ALSO hated carpetbaggers and other northern scallowags, but growing concern over the large number of former slaves holding public office was always a driving issue.

That last item was apparently a large part of what turned Forrest against them.

And oh, BTW, he wasn't even from the area!!!

Neither was George Washington Carver, http://gwcarver.duvalschools.org though I'm completely happy to have a school named for him.

The man neednt be stricken from the history books, and certainly its great that he repented later in life, but does he need to be celebrated for this late life act of contrition?

Forrest is celebrated primarily as a military genius. He originated the concept of a fast mobile strike force leaving nothing in its wake.  Indeed such notables as General Patton and Field Marshall Erwin Rommel, had made extensive studies of Forrest.

Personally I was a fan of naming it Speicher High.

Something we could both agree on! 

Tune in next week folks when we'll discuss the atomic bomb built by the Japanese near the end of WWII!

DEO VINDICE Y'ALL!

[Tacachale]

"Maybe" leaning "no". Besides the issues with the group's agenda, we shouldn't just give such an important structure over to any organization without seeing if there are other takers who can provide a better deal for the city and its property.

What would that 'agenda' be Tacachale? I believe you will find that the SCV accepts members of any race, color or creed. They do occasionally show up at Klan rally's but when they do it is to protest the Klan and the use of Confederate banners as a symbol of hate rather then one-time Southern nationalist dreams.

Regardless of the views of some misty-eyed white Southerners, the Confederacy and the SCV are hardly beloved by all Floridians or Southerners in general. The SCV goes beyond just being a Civil War history group, their reason for being is to promote the rosy "Lost Cause" image of the Confederacy and the use of Confederate symbols, which, like it or not, have been used for very unsavory purposes. This doesn't necessarily reflect on the local "camp", but the national organization has its share of politicized ugliness.

HOWEVER, the chief concern here whether this is the best deal for city property, considering we haven't even determined if other groups may be interested, and whether this group can actually pull off all those necessary repairs.

[icarus]

http://www.myspringfield.org/people-places/the-artery-at-the-armory

[sheclown]

fantastic idea

Any idea on the funding for this?

[Noone]

All of this could be moot.
There is active legislation before the Jacksonville city council 2013-384 that would immediately give the armory to the Sons of Confederate Veterans for $1 a year for 10 years.
Good or Bad?
After the 6/25/13 Public Hearing the applicants told me that they could support 24/7 Public Access to Hogans Creek which is adjacent to the property. Good.
Councilwoman Kimberly Daniels the sponsor of the legislation is opposed to such an amendment for 24/7 Public Access. Bad

[tmania]

"Maybe" leaning "no". Besides the issues with the group's agenda, we shouldn't just give such an important structure over to any organization without seeing if there are other takers who can provide a better deal for the city and its property.

What would that 'agenda' be Tacachale? I believe you will find that the SCV accepts members of any race, color or creed. They do occasionally show up at Klan rally's but when they do it is to protest the Klan and the use of Confederate banners as a symbol of hate rather then one-time Southern nationalist dreams.

Ocklawaha, I think you will find that the SCV only accepts males who are direct decedents of Confederate veterans as members.  I don't think you find much diversity there.  They have a very exclusive membership criteria.

Regardless of the views of some misty-eyed white Southerners, the Confederacy and the SCV are hardly beloved by all Floridians or Southerners in general. The SCV goes beyond just being a Civil War history group, their reason for being is to promote the rosy "Lost Cause" image of the Confederacy and the use of Confederate symbols, which, like it or not, have been used for very unsavory purposes. This doesn't necessarily reflect on the local "camp", but the national organization has its share of politicized ugliness.

HOWEVER, the chief concern here whether this is the best deal for city property, considering we haven't even determined if other groups may be interested, and whether this group can actually pull off all those necessary repairs.

"Maybe" leaning "no". Besides the issues with the group's agenda, we shouldn't just give such an important structure over to any organization without seeing if there are other takers who can provide a better deal for the city and its property.

What would that 'agenda' be Tacachale? I believe you will find that the SCV accepts members of any race, color or creed. They do occasionally show up at Klan rally's but when they do it is to protest the Klan and the use of Confederate banners as a symbol of hate rather then one-time Southern nationalist dreams.

The city is still struggling with racial issues.  The only people who don't seem to think so are the ones who have lived here all of their lives. 

There is a high school named after a KKK leader and it is predominately filled with children of color.

The issue is too sensitive for this -- maybe some day, but not today.

IMHO

THE KLAN CONNECTION:

During Reconstruction, Union Leagues were formed across the South after 1867 as working auxiliaries of the Republican Party. They mobilized freedmen to register to vote and to vote Republican. They discussed political issues, promoted civic projects, and mobilized workers opposed to certain employers. Most branches were segregated but there were a few that were racially integrated. The leaders of the all-black units were mostly urban blacks from the North, who had never been slaves.

Forrest described the original purpose of the Klan as "a protective political military organization... The members are sworn to recognize the government of the United States... Its objects originally were protection against Loyal Leagues and the Grand Army of the Republic, In addition to aiding Confederate widows and orphans of the war..." many members of the new group began to use force to oppose the extension of voting rights to blacks and to resist Reconstruction era measures for ending segregation. In 1869, Forrest, disagreeing with its increasingly violent tactics, ordered the Klan to disband, stating that it was "being perverted from its original honorable and patriotic purposes, becoming injurious instead of subservient to the public peace."  Forrest testified before the Congressional investigation on Klan activities on June 27, 1871. Forrest denied membership.  The committee also noted, "The natural tendency of all such organizations is to violence and crime; hence it was that General Forrest and other men of influence in the state, by the exercise of their moral power, induced them to disband.” 



A MAN CHANGED:

In these latter years of tribulation the prayers of Mary Montgomery Forrest were answered when Bedford turned to the religion which always had been so large a part of her life. On the streets of Memphis one day in 1875 Forrest met the Reverend Raliegh White, the same who as a lieutenant colonel had long commanded the old Fourteenth Tennessee Cavalry, and who now, as he told his general, was in Texas “preaching the word of God.” After a short conversation the two stepped into the quiet of the parlor of a bank near by, to kneel together in prayer. Not long afterward, on November 14, 1875, a calm Sabbath evening, the General walked into the Court Street Cumberland Presbyterian Church, Mrs. Forrest on his arm, and told the minister, the Reverend G. T. Stainback, that he had decided to accept the Christian faith. “There was no half way of doing things with Forrest,” the minister said afterward in a lecture, “and this is the way he entered the religious faith. … The news of his conversion had gone abroad and the church was filled the following Sunday morning. When I called for new members he folded his arms and deliberately walked down the aisle to the altar. I thought then that I had never seen such a magnificent man as General Forrest that day!”  SOURCE, BOOK : “‘First with the Most’ Forrest”  by Robert Selph Henry.

CIVIL RIGHTS AND EQUALITY:

A convention and BBQ was held by the Independent Order of Pole-Bearers Association (a precursor to the NAACP) at the fairgrounds of Memphis, five miles east of the city. An invitation to speak was conveyed to General Nathan Bedford Forrest, one of the city's most prominent citizens, and one of the foremost cavalry commanders in the late War Between the States. This was the first invitation granted to a white man to speak at this gathering. The invitation's purpose, one of the leaders said, was to extend peace, joy, and union, and following a brief welcoming address a Miss Lou Lewis, daughter of an officer of the Pole-Bearers, brought forward flowers and assurances that she conveyed them as a token of good will. After Miss Lewis handed him the flowers, General Forrest responded with a short speech that, in the contemporary pages of the Memphis Appeal, evinces Forrest's racial open-mindedness that seemed to have been growing in him.

“Ladies and Gentlemen I accept the flowers as a memento of reconciliation between the white and colored races of the southern states. I accept it more particularly as it comes from a colored lady, for if there is any one on God's earth who loves the ladies I believe it is myself. ( Immense applause and laughter.) I came here with the jeers of some white people, who think that I am doing wrong. I believe I can exert some influence, and do much to assist the people in strengthening fraternal relations, and shall do all in my power to elevate every man to depress none. (Applause.) I want to elevate you to take positions in law offices, in stores, on farms, and wherever you are capable of going. I have not said anything about politics today. I don't propose to say anything about politics. You have a right to elect whom you please; vote for the man you think best, and I think, when that is done, you and I are freemen. Do as you consider right and honest in electing men for office. I did not come here to make you a long speech, although invited to do so by you. I am not much of a speaker, and my business prevented me from preparing myself. I came to meet you as friends, and welcome you to the white people. I want you to come nearer to us. When I can serve you I will do so. We have but one flag, one country; let us stand together. We may differ in color, but not in sentiment Many things have been said about me which are wrong, and which white and black persons here, who stood by me through the war, can contradict. Go to work, be industrious, live honestly and act truly, and when you are oppressed I'll come to your relief. I thank you, ladies and gentlemen, for this opportunity you have afforded me to be with you, and to assure you that I am with you in heart and in hand. (Prolonged applause.)”

Whereupon N. B. Forrest again thanked Miss Lewis for the bouquet and then gave her a kiss on the cheek. Such a kiss was unheard of in the society of those days, in 1875, but it showed a token of respect and friendship between the general and the black community and did much to promote harmony among the citizens of Memphis.

I believe if we are really to standup for education and tolerance we should be bold enough to celebrate not just the Confederacy, but how many of its former leaders paved a way to a new and accepting south. It would be very cool if the high school, the SCV and historical associations of all colors could band together to publish or produce a treatise on reconciliation and truth as it related to Forrest.