NSA Collecting Phone Records of MILLIONS of Verizon Customers Daily

[JeffreyS]

Elections really do matter, don't they?

Not in this case as Diane Finstein and Lindsey Graham are on the same side of this one.

[NotNow]

Don't worry, it was really just a few low level employees in the Cincinnati office.  Nothing to see here, move along.  I'm familiar with your talking points.

And the subject of this thread is really old news.  Everybody knew about it, right?  It's Bush's fault. 

Elections really do matter, don't they?

What on earth are you talking about with Cincinatti?  What talking points?  Seriously?  Is this another one of those FOX things?

And no, unlike you, those of us with actual principles get to be angry about this issue.

But one would think you guys would worry about being exposed as hypocrites and partisan hacks for you to be angry about the enforcement of an issue that you personally cheerled.
[/quo

Don't worry, it was really just a few low level employees in the Cincinnati office.  Nothing to see here, move along.  I'm familiar with your talking points.

And the subject of this thread is really old news.  Everybody knew about it, right?  It's Bush's fault. 

Elections really do matter, don't they?

What on earth are you talking about with Cincinatti?  What talking points?  Seriously?  Is this another one of those FOX things?

And no, unlike you, those of us with actual principles get to be angry about this issue.

But one would think you guys would worry about being exposed as hypocrites and partisan hacks for you to be angry about the enforcement of an issue that you personally cheerled.

I am familiar with your "principles".  That is why I am not surprised by your attempts to blame me and other posters for the sins of the administration that you drooled about.  You might try actually getting angry about this issue and spending a little less time laying the blame off on people who had nothing whatsoever to do with the acts.

[Demosthenes]

You guys are all fucking idiots. Bush is to Blame. Obama is to blame.... Who gives a shit. Just don't pay attention to the man behind the curtain, and sure as hell don't stop blaming each other for things you were never actually a part of long enough to stop and realize that your are being screwed. We are all being fleeced by the banks, spied on by our government, but by all means, please continue blaming each other and mindlessly backing your own ideological horses while this happens in front of your eyes. Its super productive and really makes it all OK.

[BridgeTroll]

Meh

[NotNow]

mmm....and the same treatment was given to left leaning organizations?  Like "Organizing for Action"?

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_IRS_scandal

Beginning in March 2010, the IRS more closely scrutinized certain organizations applying for tax-exempt status under Section 501(c)(4) of the Internal Revenue Code by focusing on groups with certain words in their names.[34] These words were generally associated with the political right in the US, an ideological screen. In May 2010, some employees of the "Determinations Unit" of the Cincinnati office of the IRS, which is tasked with reviewing applications pertaining to tax-exempt status, began developing a spreadsheet that became known as the "Be On the Look Out" list. This list, first distributed in August 2010, suggested intensive scrutiny of applicants with names related to the Tea Party movement and other conservative causes. Eventually, IRS employees in at least Cincinnati, Ohio; El Monte, California; Laguna Niguel, California; and Washington, D.C.[35] applied closer scrutiny to applications from organizations that:[36][37][38]
referenced words such as "Tea Party," "Patriots," or "9/12 Project" in the case file;
outlined issues in the application that included government spending, government debt, or taxes;
involved advocating or lobbying to "make America a better place to live";
had statements in the case file that criticized how the country is being run;
advocated education about the Constitution and the Bill of Rights;
were focused on challenging the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act â€" known by many as Obamacare;
questioned the integrity of federal elections.
Over the two years between April 2010 and April 2012, the IRS essentially placed on hold the processing of applications for 501(c)(4) tax-exemption status received from organizations with "Tea Party," "patriots," or "9/12" in their names. While apparently none of these organizations' applications were denied during this period,[Note 2] only 4 were approved.[40] During the same general period, the agency approved applications from several dozen presumably liberal-leaning organizations whose names included terms such as "progressive," "progress," "liberal," or "equality."[40][41] (However, the IRS also targeted several progressive- or Democratic-leaning organizations for increased scrutiny, leading to at least one such organization, called Emerge America, being denied tax-exempt status.[39])

[carpnter]

How did this thread devolve into something about the IRS? 

[I-10east]

Then when a terrorist attack happens, the same people who's bitching about this phone tap crap would be saying why wasn't more things done to protect Americans. Even though it's safe to say that Demosthenes's post was pretty vulgar, I agree with alot what he said. People need to quit acting like their lives are so damn important, that the government really cares about their meaningless conversations. The only ones who should have something to fear are people who have something to hide, terrorists, etc. I really believe that some things are best left unknown. Be in denial, but many controversial government practices (droning, torture etc) saved countless American lives. So what's better, an a-hole terrorist getting worked over in a dark room somewhere, or a nuked America for the sake of ethics?   

[I-10east]

^^^You're welcome.

[I-10east]

^^^36. I smell a condescending age related put-down coming just for having an opinion...

[Demosthenes]

Yes, because being right is far more important than being free.

[I-10east]

Im sorry, i didnt actually see an opinion anywhere.  And Im almost never condescending about a persons actual age.  Just the maturity level or that standard inflexibility that sometimes comes to older bright people who have stopped their own process of inquiry.

Yup, a typical Stephen post. Thanks Stephen, you never disappoint...

[I-10east]

^^^My bad, I misunderstood you when you said that "you didn't see an opinion anywhere" throughout the top post on this page. I get it that you disagree with it, and that's fine. I just think that many people are way too paranoid for nothing.

[I-10east]

thats not really an opinion is it?

I mean your opinion is that we shouldnt have opinions and stay uninformed.  Its literally the exact opposite of what the site was founded for.

Nice wordplay stephen. Okay, by the same token can say the same thing; You don't have an opinion because it's an simple 'given' that everyone who posts on this thread better be outraged and raising hell with this Verizon situation on one accord. So a differing opinion = to not having one, haha, that's a good one. BTW, I never said that people shouldn't have opinions and they should stay uninformed, I just added my lil 2, that's all Stephen not that hard to understand.

[KenFSU]

Then when a terrorist attack happens, the same people who's bitching about this phone tap crap would be saying why wasn't more things done to protect Americans. Even though it's safe to say that Demosthenes's post was pretty vulgar, I agree with alot what he said. People need to quit acting like their lives are so damn important, that the government really cares about their meaningless conversations. The only ones who should have something to fear are people who have something to hide, terrorists, etc. I really believe that some things are best left unknown. Be in denial, but many controversial government practices (droning, torture etc) saved countless American lives. So what's better, an a-hole terrorist getting worked over in a dark room somewhere, or a nuked America for the sake of ethics?   

I just don't see how anyone with a firm grasp on world history can say something like "the only ones who should have something to fear are people who have something to hide." This is reckless, and oblivious to centuries of horrific abuses that inevitability follow a government obtaining sweeping surveillance powers over its population. I've read your posts for years, you seem very smart, but how can you honestly believe that demanding privacy means "having something to hide." And further, you can't possibly suggest that there is anything wrong or sinister about wanting to keep your personal affairs private. Is it Uncle Sam's business if you buy viagra online? If you're out of town and have a steamy phone or Skype session with your wife? If you search the internet for embarrassing things? If you've got a particular fetish? If your daughter has an abortion? If you're unhappy with the President or your Congressman?

NO ONE is getting nuked or not nuked because the government is archiving what activist or political groups you and your loved ones "like" on Facebook.

Watch just the first 45 seconds of the below clip, from the reporter who broke the Guardian story that set this whole thing off, and tell me doesn't send a chill down your spine:

http://www.youtube.com/v/pHRMxLCfU8A

Link is above doesn't work: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pHRMxLCfU8A

How is this necessary?

The implications are just SO MUCH greater than giving the government blanket access to your "meaningless conversations."

Finally, here's a great quote from Reddit yesterday that is a great counter to the "nothing to hide" argument. Time and time and time again throughout history, this rings true.

I actually get really upset when people say "I don't have anything to hide. Let them read everything." People saying that have no idea what they are bringing down on their own heads. They are naive, and we need to listen to people in other countries who are clearly telling us that this is a horrible horrible sign and it is time to stand up and say no.

I live in a country generally assumed to be a dictatorship. One of the Arab spring countries. I have lived through curfews and have seen the outcomes of the sort of surveillance now being revealed in the US. People here talking about curfews aren't realizing what that actually FEELS like. It isn't about having to go inside, and the practicality of that. It's about creating the feeling that everyone, everything is watching. A few points:

1) the purpose of this surveillance from the governments point of view is to control enemies of the state. Not terrorists. People who are coalescing around ideas that would destabilize the status quo. These could be religious ideas. These could be groups like anon who are too good with tech for the governments liking. It makes it very easy to know who these people are. It also makes it very simple to control these people.

Lets say you are a college student and you get in with some people who want to stop farming practices that hurt animals. So you make a plan and go to protest these practices. You get there, and wow, the protest is huge. You never expected this, you were just goofing off. Well now everyone who was there is suspect. Even though you technically had the right to protest, you're now considered a dangerous person.

With this tech in place, the government doesn't have to put you in jail. They can do something more sinister. They can just email you a sexy picture you took with a girlfriend. Or they can email you a note saying that they can prove your dad is cheating on his taxes. Or they can threaten to get your dad fired. All you have to do, the email says, is help them catch your friends in the group. You have to report back every week, or you dad might lose his job. So you do. You turn in your friends and even though they try to keep meetings off grid, you're reporting on them to protect your dad.

2) Let's say number one goes on. The country is a weird place now. Really weird. Pretty soon, a movement springs up like occupy, except its bigger this time. People are really serious, and they are saying they want a government without this power. I guess people are realizing that it is a serious deal. You see on the news that tear gas was fired. Your friend calls you, frantic. They're shooting people. Oh my god. you never signed up for this. You say, fuck it. My dad might lose his job but I won't be responsible for anyone dying. That's going too far. You refuse to report anymore. You just stop going to meetings. You stay at home, and try not to watch the news. Three days later, police come to your door and arrest you. They confiscate your computer and phones, and they beat you up a bit. No one can help you so they all just sit quietly. They know if they say anything they're next. This happened in the country I live in. It is not a joke.

3) Its hard to say how long you were in there. What you saw was horrible. Most of the time, you only heard screams. People begging to be killed. Noises you've never heard before. You, you were lucky. You got kicked every day when they threw your moldy food at you, but no one shocked you. No one used sexual violence on you, at least that you remember. There were some times they gave you pills, and you can't say for sure what happened then. To be honest, sometimes the pills were the best part of your day, because at least then you didn't feel anything. You have scars on you from the way you were treated. You learn in prison that torture is now common. But everyone who uploads videos or pictures of this torture is labeled a leaker. Its considered a threat to national security. Pretty soon, a cut you got on your leg is looking really bad. You think it's infected. There were no doctors in prison, and it was so overcrowded, who knows what got in the cut. You go to the doctor, but he refuses to see you. He knows if he does the government can see the records that he treated you. Even you calling his office prompts a visit from the local police.
You decide to go home and see your parents. Maybe they can help. This leg is getting really bad. You get to their house. They aren't home. You can't reach them no matter how hard you try. A neighbor pulls you aside, and he quickly tells you they were arrested three weeks ago and haven't been seen since. You vaguely remember mentioning to them on the phone you were going to that protest. Even your little brother isn't there.

4) Is this even really happening? You look at the news. Sports scores. Celebrity news. It's like nothing is wrong. What the hell is going on? A stranger smirks at you reading the paper. You lose it. You shout at him "fuck you dude what are you laughing at can't you see I've got a fucking wound on my leg?"

"Sorry," he says. "I just didn't know anyone read the news anymore." There haven't been any real journalists for months. They're all in jail.

Everyone walking around is scared. They can't talk to anyone else because they don't know who is reporting for the government. Hell, at one time YOU were reporting for the government. Maybe they just want their kid to get through school. Maybe they want to keep their job. Maybe they're sick and want to be able to visit the doctor. It's always a simple reason. Good people always do bad things for simple reasons.

You want to protest. You want your family back. You need help for your leg. This is way beyond anything you ever wanted. It started because you just wanted to see fair treatment in farms. Now you're basically considered a terrorist, and everyone around you might be reporting on you. You definitely can't use a phone or email. You can't get a job. You can't even trust people face to face anymore. On every corner, there are people with guns. They are as scared as you are. They just don't want to lose their jobs. They don't want to be labeled as traitors.

This all happened in the country where I live.

You want to know why revolutions happen? Because little by little by little things get worse and worse. But this thing that is happening now is big. This is the key ingredient. This allows them to know everything they need to know to accomplish the above. The fact that they are doing it is proof that they are the sort of people who might use it in the way I described. In the country I live in, they also claimed it was for the safety of the people. Same in Soviet Russia. Same in East Germany. In fact, that is always the excuse that is used to surveil everyone. But it has never ONCE proven to be the reality.

Maybe Obama won't do it. Maybe the next guy won't, or the one after him. Maybe this story isn't about you. Maybe it happens 10 or 20 years from now, when a big war is happening, or after another big attack. Maybe it's about your daughter or your son. We just don't know yet. But what we do know is that right now, in this moment we have a choice. Are we okay with this, or not? Do we want this power to exist, or not?

You know for me, the reason I'm upset is that I grew up in school saying the pledge of allegiance. I was taught that the United States meant "liberty and justice for all." You get older, you learn that in this country we define that phrase based on the constitution. That's what tells us what liberty is and what justice is. Well, the government just violated that ideal. So if they aren't standing for liberty and justice anymore, what are they standing for? Safety?

Ask yourself a question. In the story I told above, does anyone sound safe?

I didn't make anything up. These things happened to people I know. We used to think it couldn't happen in America. But guess what? It's starting to happen.

[I-10east]

^^^Okay, if it was 'unknown' you wouldn't have an opinion on it now would you? So that does not equal to 'having an opinion' when there's no news to be heard. You're right though, if I can retroactively keep government matters secret for the sake of national security, I'm all for that; That's all irrelevant of course because the news is out. I'm not sure why you highlighted "Be in denial". It's a fact that 'unethical' practices saved lives, so just like I said, be in denial about it if you wanna.