Jville's Brooklyn Renaissance: Planning for the Future

[Tacachale]

Speaking from experience, there are a lot of people in northern San Marco who would use the Skyway more frequently if they could get to all these new developments in Brooklyn. It would take them directly across the street from a retail center with a Fresh Market (or something similar), and within 3 blocks of the Y, a new public green space, and even more retail at 220 Riverside. I know I would.

[fieldafm]

In a downtown environment, your largest sell is the concept of walkability.  If you're downtown isn't walkable, seriously, what's the point in moving there over anywhere else in town?  If Jax is going to consider Brooklyn as a part of downtown, it's only logical that transit connectivity (which extends the walkable footprint) between Brooklyn and the rest of downtown should be improved and be highly reliable.

That's exactly why I don't live downtown.  When I moved back InTown from the beach, I wanted to live downtown... but realized it just didn't have the type of environment I was looking for.  I now live in an area where I can walk to the grocery store or nearby restaurants... or bike to King Street.  If I lived downtown, I would have to drive to the grocery store, work, parks, a variety of restaurants and other third places... and until 7-11 opened downtown, if I needed aspirin at 9pm I would have had to drive to a nearby walkable neighborhood to get that as well.

I really think Brooklyn and North San Marco will be the next great neighborhoods in Jacksonville if we seize the opportunities we now have in front of us. 

[JeffreyS]

^I think those neighborhoods are so important to what comes next in Jax as well. They connect two of the areas best Riverside and San Marco to DT. They should be an impetus for creating the density and connectivity that will help DT follow them into vibrancy. Springfeild and Durkyville could folow that.  It is a long process and the best thing we can do for all of them is to help them connect and leverage each others success.

[tufsu1]

In response to the posts about the 2035 LRTP.....

The needs plan does include skyway extensions....and the cost feasible plan carried one extension through...it was removed one month before adoption because a City Council member sitting on the TPO Board had heartburn about spending any money on the skyway...so the money was moved to other transit projects

[thelakelander]

What extension did the council member have removed and what replaced it?

[simms3]

Red

I am the epitome of transit choice rider, actually.  Why wouldn't I be?  Actually, you're right...you don't even have to make transit super duper convenient for me in the south and I'll still live as close to it as possible and use it when I can, which is a whole next step.  Your average choice rider needs it to be MORE convenient than their car, which is VERY difficult to do in a smaller southern city such as Jax.  I'm not in transit, per se, but having lived in a southern city that offers transit and seen ridership habits firsthand for years, I know if you can't convince me to be a rider, you're going to have a very difficult time convincing other "non-captive" riders.

On a regional or city wide level, this is more of a concern. However, speaking from experience, for many working in downtown Jacksonville (I worked within two blocks of the Skyway in the North & Southbank for three years), once you're in downtown, it's much easier to utilize the Skyway then run to your garage, drive/park/do whatever you have to do, then drive back and park in your garage.  I'm an independent planning consultant now but I still routinely either use the Skyway or park north of State and walk, depending on my desired downtown destination and length of stay.

I agree...once you're "in" any downtown, it is easier to walk.  Lunch hour and happy hour and going to a meeting a block or two down are one thing.  Living your life without a car is another...a grocery trip of 4+ blocks by foot is probably easier done by car in Jax.  If it is easier in Atlanta, it will be even easier in Jax.  Living a carfree lifestyle in Jax for anyone who can afford a new urban apartment and a car will be a choice of devotion, as it will be very very difficult to actually make it more convenient to be able to get around your daily life without a car (there's also the whole change of mindset where you must "wean" yourself from the car...they don't call it car addiction for nothing, hehe).

Residents of 225 Riverside who work downtown will face these questions:
1) Is it too hot or too cold for me to devote myself to the 2-3 block walk and then 2-7+ minute wait for a Skyway car to take me to work?
2) Will I be going anywhere during lunch or after work?
3) This morning show is so good today, do I want to make an excuse for myself to continue listening to it on the way into work in my nice car?

In Jax...keep in mind you have more young people who have never really left the city or lived without their car in an urban setting before.  I've been hauling groceries by foot for years now, so I know the plusses AND minuses of being without car and I have accepted them.  I think the idea of urban carless experience is still "romantic" to many in Jax, but they haven't the actual experience to know that there are drawbacks to relying on transit and living in an urban setting.  The convenience of a car with AC and stereo is a very captivating thing to abandon for a totally different experience.

In a downtown environment, your largest sell is the concept of walkability.  If you're downtown isn't walkable, seriously, what's the point in moving there over anywhere else in town?  If Jax is going to consider Brooklyn as a part of downtown, it's only logical that transit connectivity (which extends the walkable footprint) between Brooklyn and the rest of downtown should be improved and be highly reliable.

I agree with all of this.  I just think that Jax is too easy to have a car and too spread out not to have a car.  I could see living in the Northbank as being a lot easier than living in Brooklyn even when it's all built out and connected via Skyway (it would be no choice).  These pseudo Sunbelt-urban development trends are a step in the right direction, but until the whole friggin city is developed and dense, having/using a car will be easier for those not directly in the Northbank where you can walk a block to work and less than a block to happy hour/lunch spots, using car only for grocery or to get to beach.

There are tons of retirees and middle-aged folks/families who have "fled" the crowded urban settings up north so that they can actually have a car and suburban house + yard, been there done that type of thing, and they reside in Jax...it's the inexperienced younger generation that you have to convince to go urban (granted - urban in Jax is really not that urban, it's still quiet, car parking is free and abundant, bla bla bla).

None of this should mean you don't enhance walkability and connectivity within your downtown......if the point is to have a vibrant pedestrian friendly downtown.  If a vibrant pedestrian friendly environment is not the goal of the end game, what's the point of investing in downtown over other random neighborhoods all across town?

I agree.  It's all a step in the right direction.  Just playing devil's advocate...we can't expect a totally carfree culture in Jax to arise to any degree without a larger Northbank and a "line" like Charlotte has that makes a rather large version of Brooklyn happen so that certain economies of scale of urbanity form along it.  I'm not against Skyway access to Brooklyn and I think it's all great - but I don't think any of this is transformative to a noticeable degree and I do worry about the fuel tank for political support in the city/region for anything having to do with transit - so I think we as advocates just need to tread lightly and only back projects we know will be a success.

[thelakelander]

^I'm not selling a totally car-free environment.  What I'm saying is a downtown environment should provide you with reliable multimodal choices. Thus, if one chooses to reduce the need for daily car use by living, working and playing in downtown, they should have that choice.  Right now they don't, which is why several that have considered downtown, end up in Riverside, San Marco, Tapestry Park/Southside, etc.

I'm actually not aware of a truly vibrant downtown in this country that doesn't strive to be multimodal friendly.  Thus, I'd argue better Skyway connectivity, bike infrastructure, etc. throughout the downtown core will put us on the path to success moreso than ignoring the impact of alternative transportation altogether.

Residents of 225 Riverside who work downtown will face these questions:
1) Is it too hot or too cold for me to devote myself to the 2-3 block walk and then 2-7+ minute wait for a Skyway car to take me to work?
2) Will I be going anywhere during lunch or after work?
3) This morning show is so good today, do I want to make an excuse for myself to continue listening to it on the way into work in my nice car?

What about residents of the Strand or Carling desiring to pick up a few items from the grocery store?  What about the guest staying at the Omni, Crowne Plaza or Hilton Garden Inn looking for a bite to eat?  What about the employee at Everbank, BOA, Wells Fargo, etc. that needs to make a quick run to the pharmacy?  Connectivity is just as important to the Northbank and Southbank, as it is to the future residents of 220 Riverside and Riverside Place.

[tufsu1]

What extension did the council member have removed and what replaced it?

I think it was the one down Riverside Avenue to Forrest St....the money was re-allocated to the transportation center and the streetcar line to 5 Points (the thought being that any alternatives analysis study of that corridor would still need to look at the skyway as an option).

Both Riverside and San Marco extensions are in the needs plan

[simms3]

^I'm not selling a totally car-free environment.  What I'm saying is a downtown environment should provide you with reliable multimodal choices. Thus, if one chooses to reduce the need for daily car use by living, working and playing in downtown, they should have that choice.  Right now they don't, which is why several that have considered downtown, end up in Riverside, San Marco, Tapestry Park/Southside, etc.

I'm actually not aware of a truly vibrant downtown in this country that doesn't strive to be multimodal friendly.  Thus, I'd argue better Skyway connectivity, bike infrastructure, etc. throughout the downtown core will put us on the path to success moreso than ignoring the impact of alternative transportation altogether.

Residents of 225 Riverside who work downtown will face these questions:
1) Is it too hot or too cold for me to devote myself to the 2-3 block walk and then 2-7+ minute wait for a Skyway car to take me to work?
2) Will I be going anywhere during lunch or after work?
3) This morning show is so good today, do I want to make an excuse for myself to continue listening to it on the way into work in my nice car?

What about residents of the Strand or Carling desiring to pick up a few items from the grocery store?  What about the guest staying at the Omni, Crowne Plaza or Hilton Garden Inn looking for a bite to eat?  What about the employee at Everbank, BOA, Wells Fargo, etc. that needs to make a quick run to the pharmacy?  Connectivity is just as important to the Northbank and Southbank, as it is to the future residents of 220 Riverside and Riverside Place.

"Carfree" as a slice of the city, not the whole city (i.e. like a LYNX/South End neighborhood as in Charlotte).

The only reason we're talking about downtown as a place to live and focus is because Sunbelt cities are small enough blank slates to do that.  Even in NYC, SF, and Boston "downtown" is the boring place to live, LoL...totally different animals.  In that sense, you're right and we agree that Brooklyn and San Marco and all neighborhoods should be connected, but in terms of transit this ain't a large city that can drop money here and there on trains and not deal with "consequences" down the road.  It's still easier for 99.9% of Jaxsons to have and use a car - which is why they see even a penny spent on public transit as a waste.  Here in SF the relatively few who have a car still take the transit during the week because it's just too damn hard/expensive to actually use your car.  There's actually a clamoring here for more Muni subway lines as opposed to a backlash against even a penny being spent on an upgraded bus stop.

Carling residents should be able to easily hop on a bus without hastle to get to a grocery store without a big wait (do we honestly need a Skyway connection for that?).  The south has a history that may prevent it from having a decent clean, safe, reliable bus system that middle to upper class people will use, but we should try.  Busses>trains any day, and cheaper and if done right by leaders diving in head first to get a system going, more reliable.  Still - it's the south.  Until there are enough professional residents downtown to attract Publix (you're going to be hard-pressed to get uppity young professionals to make a habit of going to Winn Dixie I think, especially in that area which is sketch looking at night and empty), you're going to have residents in Carling or wherever take a quick elevator hop down to their car, exit, and drive to Riverside...and it will be quicker than any other way.  It's just so easy to do so, and why do we penalize them for doing something that's easier?  I don't!  I would do the same unless I had some decent grocer within a few blocks.

The Strand is nice, luxurious and offers the highest views, but it's called the Strand for a reason because it's going to leave yo ass stranded from civilization.  And if you can afford a $1600 1BR there, then you can afford the free parking too and a nice car, and there is no way taxpayers should spend any money whatsoever to get transit to go out of its way to serve your ass when you live there, LoL (are you really going to even take it?).  Until 10 more towers with less abundant parking rise all around you and we can get a bus stop or a Skyway stop that has 2-5 people at any given time waiting, there's no point in serving ya!

As for everyone else staying in a hotel - that's what cabs should be for.  There is only 1 city in America that has a transit system that is arguably easier (and often not) for visitors than a cab - NYC.  Everyone else takes cabs.  If you're staying at the Hyatt on some 2 day trip here to Jax and you need to go to a full blown grocery store, wtf are you doing?  LoL  Which is why 7-11 and any other Walgreens/CVS that might come downtown is such a big useful deal.  When I go to Nashville and stay downtown at their reliably good Courtyard, I am not ever wishing the for the friggin Star or a bus to come pick me up to go to my destination.  The last thing I as a visitor need is to be lost on some foreign city's public transit system!  As an urban explorer, I do rail systems in other cities (usually it's an easy leg in from airport and convenient, but beyond that it's my explorer ass and a bunch of locals...no tourists).  Busses for visitors on a 1-3 day stay big no no unless you want to end up somewhere off the grid, haha!

[thelakelander]

I'll just say this. You're basing your opinion on some pretty large assumptions.  Many, such as the few highlighted below, are either inaccurate or soley based on your personal tastes and needs:

"The only reason we're talking about downtown as a place to live and focus is because Sunbelt cities are small enough blank slates to do that.

The last thing I as a visitor need is to be lost on some foreign city's public transit system!

There is only 1 city in America that has a transit system that is arguably easier (and often not) for visitors than a cab - NYC.  Everyone else takes cabs.

and there is no way taxpayers should spend any money whatsoever to get transit to go out of its way to serve your ass when you live there.

I've pointed a few of these out because I do use a city's foreign public transit systems, I haven't taken a cab in years, there are several cities you can easily get around using public transit outside of NYC and I have stopped by stores for various needs, while visiting other communities. The focus on downtown/urban core living is also not just a Sunbelt thing.  Last, I have no problem walking more than two blocks and do it quite often, even in Jax.

Nevertheless, no offense but nothing in your statement makes a strong case for not seriously considering utilizing our existing $184 million downtown transit circulator to be accessible to 600 units and 70,000 square feet of retail going up across the street from it. 

[JeffreyS]

Cabs are pricey. I use the Metro in DC one week a year, the El in Chicago one week a year and in Vegas I set my stay up so I con use the monorail instead of cabs.  Those are the transit cities I visit mostly.  I go to St. Louis every year but I have the whole family and am mostly in the Suburbs so I rent a car. I think you have a point Simms that many people prefer cabs on vacation but not everyone.

[thelakelander]

Kids or not, I use transit or my feet in nearly every city I fly into.  NYC, DC, Chicago, Dallas/Fort Worth, LA, San Diego, St. Louis, Atlanta, Miami, Boston, etc. are all places I've frequently used transit with ease in the past. I seriously can't even remember the last time I took a cab for myself. In some cities, including Sunbelt communities like St. Petersburg, I've parked the truck and either walked or biked the entire time I was in town. Nevertheless, none of this has anything to do with whether it makes sense to allow passenger service at the Skyway's operations center or not or should it be used in determining if we want our downtown to be walkable.

[tufsu1]

I have taken a cab less than 10 times in my whole life....and that includes while living in Philly for 5 years

[simms3]

^^^Well that's all good, but there's a reason there is a cab line at every hotel in every major city.  This board is a transit nerd board, but the general population is probably a different slice of the pie.  I am like you guys and purposely go out of my way to learn and use another city's transit (usually when I'm traveling alone and not in a rush, because otherwise I am with coworkers who take cabs like most of white collar America or I need to be somewhere specific fast...cab required!).

I'm still blown away that one can live in a city like Philadelphia for 5 years and take a cab less than 10 times...what were you stuck on one block for 5 years, never going out at night?  SF might have potentially better transit and certainly better walkability and NYC too...I take cabs in both cities frequently (they're cheap for cabs!) and now there's cheap Uber and Lyft and other apps making getting around by cab easy.

Lake - about downtowns - the downtown renaissance is a focus of Sunbelt metros mostly.  That's a fact.  Sure Lower Manhattan and Fidi in Boston and SF are seeing towers go up, but these cities are already so large that it represents a small fraction of the focus, which is on other areas of town.  In dense carless cities, the hip neighborhoods where most want to be are *not* downtown.  Fact, not opinion.  In Sunbelt metros like Atlanta, Charlotte, Phoenix, etc the only areas where one can arguably be carless is downtown...the rest of the metro is too suburban in nature, so the focus is on downtown.  Even still, the hippest neighborhoods in these Sunbelt cities for the Creative Class is not DT, but rather surrounding neighborhoods where everyone still has cars, but there is a slight bit of "cool" and walkability mixed in.

The last thing I as a visitor need is to be lost on some foreign city's public transit system!

Yes, this is my opinion and I'm sure most share it, LoL.  Easy to take a train in from the airport, beyond that you're "learning a system" and if you are a short term visitor, a cab is just easier...he'll take you to the front door!

There is only 1 city in America that has a transit system that is arguably easier (and often not) for visitors than a cab - NYC.  Everyone else takes cabs.

Yes, an opinion and generalization.  I personally don't know many besides transit forum geeks like ourselves who would disagree (well maybe DC is up there with NYC, and Boston's T green line is useful for visitors for its routes).

and there is no way taxpayers should spend any money whatsoever to get transit to go out of its way to serve your ass when you live there.

Pure opinion, but I do think it would be a waste to bulk up transit for Strand/Peninsula residents.  ~700 isolated luxury units where everyone has at least one car they park for free?  Do we honestly think we're going to coax even a quarter of these residents out of their cars and onto Skyway/bus system?  LoLROFLMFAO

If you're inclined to use/rely on transit...you are not moving to either the Strand or the Peninsula!  In fact apparently there are only a few thousand in the entire city who rely on transit every day...and they are probably too poor to own a car and must rely on the shitty bus system.

[thelakelander]

Lake - about downtowns - the downtown renaissance is a focus of Sunbelt metros mostly.  That's a fact.

Unless you've got some factual, statistical data to present, I'd say this is an opinion.  Nearly every US city from Minneapolis, Omaha, Grand Rapids and Portland to Houston, El Paso, Rochester and Hartford has placed a focus on attracting growth and redevelopment in their downtown and urban core neighborhoods.  This can be validated by a simple google search.

Nevertheless, I don't see how this side discussion has anything to do with enhancing downtown Jacksonville's walkability.  Specifically, in relation to the idea of enhancing multimodal connectivity between Brooklyn and the rest of downtown, with something already in place. 

Pure opinion, but I do think it would be a waste to bulk up transit for Strand/Peninsula residents.  ~700 isolated luxury units where everyone has at least one car they park for free?  Do we honestly think we're going to coax even a quarter of these residents out of their cars and onto Skyway/bus system?  LoLROFLMFAO

Yes, opinion indeed.  However, in this thread you're specifically up to 1300 isolated units (600 Brooklyn + 700 Strand/Peninsula) and 70,000 square feet of retail.  What happens when we add up everything within a 1/4 mile radius of the existing Skyway? Btw, a 1/4-mile is the statistical distance the average pedestrian is willing to walk to/from a transit station. Whatever, the use, there's an economic benefit created by building a pedestrian scale urban core.  Besides, I think we all can agree that there is little value or attraction in a DT where your only true way to travel is by motorized vehicle for all trips.