Time for JTA Skyway to Brooklyn?

[civil42806]

There will be a huge push back in this day and age to attempt to extend the riderless express.  Sorry but thats what most people think of it.  Yes I know roads cost a lot more than this, but people in masses use the roads.  extension of the skyway is a dead issue.

[jcjohnpaint]

Well about a month ago, I used the Culver BRT from LAX to Culver City.  I did not feel that the BRT was much different than just having a typical city bus.  Every person that got on got in a fight with the driver over the fair.  Some guy tried to bring a 50" flat screen on board and fought with the driver for 10 mins before we could depart again.  I feel we should just call it what it is:  another city bus. 

Lol.  Two years ago, while in LA, I transferred from LRT to the Silver Line BRT to get from LAX to downtown LA.  The Silver Line was a bus painted Silver than ran in freeway HOV lanes with limited stops along the way.  It was fine to me but yes, it was just another bus.  Although, there was no presence of TOD along the route, I was most impressed that it had been implemented seemingly without major federal assistance. I wonder why we can't do the same by modifying our system utilizing existing buses?

Kind of funny, but a few years ago, I took the Blue to the Silver BRT when attempting to go downtown.  I waited an hour under some overpass pile.  I was coughing from all the fumes, so I decided it wasn't coming.  Took the train the rest of the route changing in Watts.  Seems like the BRT lines run at stations in and around DT, but most of the other ones just act like any other bus. 

[Cheshire Cat]

There will be a huge push back in this day and age to attempt to extend the riderless express.  Sorry but thats what most people think of it.  Yes I know roads cost a lot more than this, but people in masses use the roads.  extension of the skyway is a dead issue.

This of course will be the sentiment of some, but perhaps we have finally reached that long sought doorway that will take us in new directions with open minds.  While other travel modes would definitely cost less, I would still like to see the no frills stop and yes, one into Brooklyn.  Consider this, we live in a town that has a struggling football team floating a 50 million dollar scoreboard.  The one the stadium currently has works just fine, but they want to take the next step up regardless and the mayor has already come out in support of the idea as well as some on council.  I kind of see an extension to the skyway in this way.  Put a bit more money into growing it a bit more and then absolutely add the streetcars on rail.  Bob has been saying for years the absolute draw the streetcars would be for our core and he is bang on about that.  I am hoping the same vision that brought us a new attitude about what is possible downtown via One Spark, will flow over into other areas of thought and finally open closed minds to a better way of viewing and selling our city.  Streetcars would be their own tourist draw for Jacksonville and I would love to see them come in tandem with the skyway to Brooklyn.   

[dougskiles]

There will be a huge push back in this day and age to attempt to extend the riderless express.  Sorry but thats what most people think of it.  Yes I know roads cost a lot more than this, but people in masses use the roads.  extension of the skyway is a dead issue.

What if the extension was funded by new development that comes as a result through tax increment financing?  Would the general public still oppose it?  Would it matter if they did?

[thelakelander]

My point, I suppose, was that if you ask anyone why they don't ride the skyway, they call it the "monorail to nowhere". Why? Because the San Marco stops are not walkable, the Prime Osborne is defunct, and it doesn't service east downtown. The only reason why it was popular during One Spark was due to free parking at Prime Osborne and that the Hemming Plaza stop was right in front of the main area. To make the Skyway worthwhile at all, we have to invest in an expansion. I love the Skyway, and I want to see it succeed in creating a vibrant, walkable downtown -- and leaving it as it is will not help it succeed one bit.

You are correct.  However, you can expand without actually changing how the Skyway operates.  For example, a streetcar that ties into the Skyway at the Prime Osborn and stretches into Riverside actually extends the Skyway's reach and improves its effectiveness.  The Skyway was never intended to be a city wide system.  Its primarily struggle isn't its length, it's the fact that a regional wide transportation system was never built to funnel people into it.

A Bay & Ocean stop seems like a great first step, with a commitment plan in place to expand to the sports complex. It would be great for bringing more people downtown during any games or concerts, while helping east-downtown businesses along the way.

None of this matters if the solution to extending reliable transit into areas outside of downtown isn't implemented first.  Thus, we have to look at how the Skyway fits and operates with the existing and future overall multimodal plan for our area if we want the best and most cost effective expansion path.

[thelakelander]

There will be a huge push back in this day and age to attempt to extend the riderless express.  Sorry but thats what most people think of it.  Yes I know roads cost a lot more than this, but people in masses use the roads.  extension of the skyway is a dead issue.

What if the extension was funded by new development that comes as a result through tax increment financing?  Would the general public still oppose it?  Would it matter if they did?

No.  You'd also cut back on opposition if such an extension was incrementally phased in with or after other transit network improvements such as revamping the bus network and adding a streetcar.  Sometimes we focus too much on the actual Skyway technology itself without realizing its ultimate dependency on the ability to enhance multimodal connectivity from other modes to funnel riders into it.  For example, the connectivity of Tri-Rail and Metrorail in Miami are the primary reasons why the Skyway's peer, the Metromover, averages nearly 30k riders a day.  Most of those trips are originating from other modes penetrating neighborhoods and destinations far outside of that city's downtown and the Metromover's footprint.

[thelakelander]

As for Bay Street, while I don't think the sports complex should be the first expansion, there's certainly something to the idea that people won't want to switch modes every few miles or blocks. And I've always thought that access to the sports complex should be crucial to our downtown mass transit.

Very true.  However, without looking at and planning how things should efficiently move at a regional wide scale, it's hard to say at this point who will be switching modes and exactly where those transfers will be required, when talking specifically about the Skyway.  Nevertheless, at the end of the day, even in DC, NYC, Chicago, etc. you have thousands efficiently transferring between various modes as a part of their daily routine commutes.

[thelakelander]

Kind of funny, but a few years ago, I took the Blue to the Silver BRT when attempting to go downtown.  I waited an hour under some overpass pile.  I was coughing from all the fumes, so I decided it wasn't coming.  Took the train the rest of the route changing in Watts.  Seems like the BRT lines run at stations in and around DT, but most of the other ones just act like any other bus.

Lol, I waited around 15 minutes or so and yes, I was coughing from all the fumes as well. 

That's one of the things that don't come across easy when looking at the slick presentations at public hearings. Once on the bus, the ride wasn't that bad.  However, I was on it during the middle of the day, so I'm not personally sure how enjoyable the ride is at rush hour.

Heading back to the airport, the LRT line out of DT was down, so I had to wait for the Silver Line.  I waited about 30 minutes for that bus but it was on a Saturday.

[thelakelander]

This of course will be the sentiment of some, but perhaps we have finally reached that long sought doorway that will take us in new directions with open minds.  While other travel modes would definitely cost less, I would still like to see the no frills stop and yes, one into Brooklyn.  Consider this, we live in a town that has a struggling football team floating a 50 million dollar scoreboard.  The one the stadium currently has works just fine, but they want to take the next step up regardless and the mayor has already come out in support of the idea as well as some on council.

$50 million was the exact cost estimate for a streetcar starter system connecting downtown and the intersection of Park & King.  $36 million was the estimated cost between Bay & Newnan and Five Points.  An additional $14 million was estimated for a short extension down Oak Street (the original streetcar route) to the intersection of Park & King Streets.  The mobility fee we won't collect is what is already set up to fund the capital costs 100%.  That doesn't include potential opportunities to match funding at the state or federal level with this local revenue source that doesn't require a raise in taxes.  Unfortunately, we prefer 7-Elevens, Waffle Houses and Family Dollars now, over the billions in sustainable economic development and ad valorem tax revenue gains that come with projects such as this.  Enjoy the scoreboard!

[Cheshire Cat]

Can we ride on a scoreboard?  Aaaarrrrggghhh.  Seriously, if this city considers such extravagances as this scoreboard and that over priced, over sized courthouse built to last for a lousy 50 years a worthwhile investment and can't see how valuable a streetcar system would be is very hard to stomach.  Why do some remain blind to the enhanced ease of transportation but also to the fact that people will come to the core just to ride it and that's the gosh honest truth?  I believe Bob did a piece some time back that showed the economic driver a streetcar system can be. Bob where is that piece about the tourism impact of trolleys and streetcars?

I believe it may be time to make the JTA and members of council aware of the fact, yet again that this is overdue and their decision on the mobility fee is making it more and more difficult to make some very positive changes in our city.  JTA is supposed to have new leadership and fresh views perhaps we can see a fresh start for streetcars and a skyway extension.

Nothing against the Jags here just making cost comparisons is all.

[thelakelander]

I believe Bob did a piece some time back that showed the economic driver a streetcar system can be. Bob where is that piece about the tourism impact of trolleys and streetcars?

I'd argue that the permanent development impact is the primary reason to invest in such a system today.  In the past decade, cities from Portland and Denver to Tampa, Salt Lake City and Charlotte have seen billions in market rate urban infill pop up around new streetcar and LRT lines.  They have become a critical component of a vibrant core environment that appeals to the millennial generation.  Both Charlotte and Tampa have seen over $2 billion in the form of new infill multifamily, retail and mixed use private sector projects pop up around their various stations.  Several other cities are following suit instead of implementing gimmicks such as impact fee moratoriums.  Some of the latest include Detroit, Fort Lauderdale, Cincinnati and Milwaukee.  Here's a brief look at what Milwaukee is estimating from investing in their initial two-mile line:

The Streetcar project is a critical element in Milwaukee's efforts to promote economic development downtown and along the route. In fact, fostering economic development is one of the primary goals of the project established at the onset of the Alternatives Analysis. The City identified vacant and underutilized parcels in the study area and evaluated alternatives alignments based on, among other factors, their proximity to these parcels under the recognition that fixed guideway transit service will promote transit-oriented development and/or more dense development.

Economic development potential within 1/4-mile buffer of the initial route and extensions over the next 20 years could generate approximately:

• 9,000 new housing units (63% increase)
• 13,500 new residents (55% increase)
• 1,000,000 square feet of new occupied retail space (31% increase)
• 4,000,000 SF of new occupied office space (28% increase)
• 20,500 new jobs (23% increase)
• $3.35 billion in new tax base

http://www.milwaukeeconnector.com/economic_development.html

Locally, a major economic benefit for something stretching between DT and Riverside (or any other neighborhood) is you create market rate opportunity for investment in distressed and forgotten neighborhoods between the two destinations...like Brooklyn and LaVilla.  When you start looking at the opportunities out there, something as simple as tying downtown with the airport has the potential to fuel redevelopment and revitalization throughout the Northside via the already city-owned abandoned S-Line corridor.  Why we haven't moved as quick as the rest of the globe on this is one of the most puzzling things I've come across since moving to Jax in 2003.

[Cheshire Cat]

That's the one!  Thanks Ennis.  I hope everyone will take the time to read it.  Good stuff!

[Ocklawaha]

Very interesting conversation on this today, I've been tied up with actual calls and talks with Bombardier (Monorail manufacturer), another streetcar proposal and two new stories, but I can't sit forever and let this opportunity go.

STREETCAR? Absolutely the line to Park and King should be a civic priority, but again, I'd keep it off of Bay, Bay Street is absolutely ripe for the Skyway.  As Lake has pointed out the logical spot for the Streetcar after crossing downtown on Water Street is the jog on Beaver to Palmetto then straight north along the old S line to Springfield. This could be done for a ridiculously low price as the grade and right-of-way already exist.

Skyway push-back? Not nearly as much as you might think. In doing many walk up interviews I have not met a single person who hasn't come up with some notion that it "Really should go to the Beach, Airport or Orange Park... none of which it is really designed to do, but lets face the facts, it is not doing even what it WAS designed to do.

I agree that the Eastside should be a priority along with modest expansion to San Marco and Brooklyn for the Skyway. Looking at any aerial of our city leads one to a graphic demonstration of how lop-sided our little fixed transit system is. Let's be honest here, it is NOT a downtown distributer/collector, it IS a half of a downtown distributer/collector and it only makes sense that at the least these expansions should take place. I'll roll the proposal for the whole ball of wax including a short spurt onto the FSCJ Hogan Street area in order to provide a safe crossing for many transit riders over the race track of State Street. As for Ocean Street? A minimal eastward expansion should reach Newnan for the simple reason that this is where streetcar will cross under the Skyway.

Now for the stadium? I did an estimate that with just the venues at the Sports Complex we'd double the ridership. But going beyond Newnan should be thrown out as bait for some big fish in The Shipyards area. We also ought to drop the "Stadium Extension," moniker and refer it to the Eastside Extension. Reason? Everyone tends to forget that one of the most complete, surviving, transit dependent, neighborhoods in the city exists just over the Arlington Expressway from a potential Ball Park stop. We'd be fools not to include this in our plans.

San Marco... THE REAL SAN MARCO, is paramount to the success of our commuter rail line to St. Augustine, (I'll board at the WGV-Palencia stop thank you!). Consider the fact that getting over the FEC RY will be one of the greatest reliefs to cause the explosion of new growth in the San Marco/Hendrix Restaurant District. Downtown workers would FINALLY have a dependable way to access this area without getting stuck by a 100 car transfer freight train. Further, taking this to the west side of the FEC RY at Atlantic offers the unique opportunity for a ground level station with across-the-platform transfers from Commuter Rail to Skyway or Bus. This equates to the Atlantic stop being FAR MORE then just a San Marco destination. It becomes the de facto stop for everything from San Marco to King Street in St. Augustine.

Lastly, Brooklyn... Just wait and see an idea we'll be tossing out shortly. Brooklyn is the no-brainer in all of this.

[Cheshire Cat]

^YES!  Did you hear me?  Yes!   

[jcjohnpaint]

Kind of funny, but a few years ago, I took the Blue to the Silver BRT when attempting to go downtown.  I waited an hour under some overpass pile.  I was coughing from all the fumes, so I decided it wasn't coming.  Took the train the rest of the route changing in Watts.  Seems like the BRT lines run at stations in and around DT, but most of the other ones just act like any other bus.

Lol, I waited around 15 minutes or so and yes, I was coughing from all the fumes as well. 



That's one of the things that don't come across easy when looking at the slick presentations at public hearings. Once on the bus, the ride wasn't that bad.  However, I was on it during the middle of the day, so I'm not personally sure how enjoyable the ride is at rush hour.

Heading back to the airport, the LRT line out of DT was down, so I had to wait for the Silver Line.  I waited about 30 minutes for that bus but it was on a Saturday.

That would be it.  I was there around 2 in the morning.  Looks a little nicer in the day \