Metro Jacksonville Rail Plan Already Spurring Development?

[02roadking]

From the Sunday T/U's  "in the pipeline" biz section.


St. Johns River Water Management District review
Construction of Jackson Square at San Marco 
Business Type: Commercial
Project Address: Philips Highway near Interstate 95
Entry Date: 6/26/2008
File Date: 6/5/2008
Acreage: 17.3
City Development Number:
Agent: Cypress Realty, Austin, Texas
Owner: CRVI Phillips LLP
Engineer: Environmental Services Inc
Engineer Phone: (904) 470-2200

[southwood]

Latest update from the City (via Councilman Shad's office):
The PUD application was received in the Planning Department on 6/23 and the Ordinance number was assigned this past Friday. 2008-563 will be introduced at the 8/12 City Council meeting. There will be public hearings at Council on 8/26, at Planning Commission on 8/28 and at the Land Use & Zoning (LUZ) Committee on 9/3. The Planning Dept. is currently reviewing the application (which includes a traffic impact study) and will submit its report to the Planning Commission on 8/28.

Here's how the developer (First Star) describes the project and status:
We are very early in the process, we just filed for zoning.
We are in the process of cleaning up the site by demolition which should start in July.
This will be a mixed use community planned as a TOD which stands for a Transportation Oriented Development utilizing mass transit systems like the BRT and the Skyway light rail system as it is extended south along the existing railroad right of way.

The first phase of the community should be apartments positioned in the market for the young up and coming market that wants to be located close in to downtown and likes a very active lifestyle that is associated with the urban lifestyles of good health, leisure time and work-live-play settings.  San Marco is a beautiful area and this “redevelopment site” will be a great asset for the generation looking for a place to live close to work so they don’t spend two hours every day in traffic. 

[Jason]

Sounds like they are sticking to the idea of extending the skyway.

[thelakelander]

I don't think they are willing to pay to expand it.   If they aren't, it probably won't be extended south anytime soon (ex. before your newborn graduates high school).

[Ocklawaha]

Interesting, but I can't imagine the Skyway expansion being held up with such major dollars at stake. Extending South to Atlantic is almost a MUST to make the Southbank branch anything but an expensive horizontal elevator. A ROSA PARKS type center at the FEC/Skyway/Atlantic would be a way to work BRT WITHOUT going into downtown at all.

The developers are in a real power position with the city, they should use it.

JTA better wake up and smell the coffee, LRT or Skyway is the only thing that makes any sense here, in addition to commuter rail.

JTA needs to figure out what a "Transfer" is and start using them.

Get the fares off the Skyway completely and as it expands, allow it to replace the downtown "PCT TROLLEYS"

Otherwise fill in the lesser downtown shuttles with H2 fuel cell or electric buses, shortly buses.

DAMN IT COJ, GIVE ME A CRACK AT THIS!

Ocklawaha

[Charles Hunter]

I don't see the Skyway being extended to Jackson Square.  There is just no money or political will to do so.
Unless the developer is going to do it.

[thelakelander]

I seriously don't see that happening.  To recoup the money on such an investment, Jackson Square would probably need to be three or four times as dense as plans currently show.

My guess is that JTA is still pushing BRT down that corridor and if they get approval from FEC to build on their property, it will be connected to downtown with a busway.

Btw, having a busway in that area is something River Oaks residents should probably be more concerned about.  A luxury infill development raises nearby land values, but having buses speed through on a continuous basis belching out diesel fumes will have the reverse effect.

[Coolyfett]

Hmm. They all ready have a San Marco Station. What would they call this new one St Nicholas Station  or Atlantic Station??

[Ocklawaha]

While the costs of the Skyway extension should be slight, as 75% of the costs are already invested in the control system, equipment and O & M base/car barn. With these economys in mind and JTA's expressed desire to reach Kings Avenue Station Hotel via Skyway, it would seem a minor undertaking. One that begs the question will "BRT" come to mean: BUSES REPLACE THINKING?

Looks like another here we go again Jacksonville...

Ocklawaha

[southwood]

lakelander wrote:
Btw, having a busway in that area is something River Oaks residents should probably be more concerned about.  A luxury infill development raises nearby land values, but having buses speed through on a continuous basis belching out diesel fumes will have the reverse effect.

Does ANYONE know if this really IS going to be a "luxury" development -- I can understand how people would pay for "luxury" and proximity to downtown by moving to the new high-rise apartments on the southbank.

But let's be honest - it's a stretch to think they'd opt for Phillips Hwy, with its current residents/transients, the trains that will be sounding their horns at the River Oaks crossing right through their windows and the possible bus station in their back door. 

Something's off here.  Anyone know more about who these apartments are really going to be targeted to?  Also, anyone know how tall they're going to be be, story-wise?

[thelakelander]

lakelander wrote:
Btw, having a busway in that area is something River Oaks residents should probably be more concerned about.  A luxury infill development raises nearby land values, but having buses speed through on a continuous basis belching out diesel fumes will have the reverse effect.

Does ANYONE know if this really IS going to be a "luxury" development -- I can understand how people would pay for "luxury" and proximity to downtown by moving to the new high-rise apartments on the southbank.

But let's be honest - it's a stretch to think they'd opt for Phillips Hwy, with its current residents/transients, the trains that will be sounding their horns at the River Oaks crossing right through their windows and the possible bus station in their back door. 

Something's off here.  Anyone know more about who these apartments are really going to be targeted to?  Also, anyone know how tall they're going to be be, story-wise?

Although Jacksonville is behind in this style of development, this type of project appeals to a segment of the urban market that overpriced luxury highrises on the river don't.  There are several of these type of developments on the edge of downtowns in cities like Charlotte, Denver, Salt Lake City and Austin. The site plan also shows a development featuring multiple levels (four stories), parking decks, private swimming pools and residential over retail.  Many of these are characteristics not associated with low income housing.

The first phase of the community should be apartments positioned in the market for the young up and coming market that wants to be located close in to downtown and likes a very active lifestyle that is associated with the urban lifestyles of good health, leisure time and work-live-play settings.

Examples of similar styled multi-family housing in other cities:

Charlotte


San Diego


Emeryville, CA


Austin

[Ocklawaha]

As the city urbanizes, and infill becomes more dense, THIS is the "investment gold mine of the future," these tight, close in, often run down neighborhoods are headed for greatness. Add real mass transit and the places will explode like wild flowers in the spring. Our job as concerned citizens is to keep JTA directed towards high quality answers and not to trash the opportunities for BILLIONS of investment dollars on some cheap imitation transit system. "Looks like a trolley" or "as good as rail only cheaper" just won't get the job done. Lakelander is right, these developments are the engine that will drive future cities...But not without the fuel...TRANSIT.


Ocklawaha

[southwood]

Lakelander...that helps some, but still, I've spent a lot of time in both Charlotte and Austin (and if this development happens without some thought to impact on the surrounding neighbors and homes, I might move to one of those permanently)...AND, I live in the River Oaks area, so I know it well.  This area is NO Charlotte and it's NO Austin.

Here's something I noted when I looked more closely at the Jackson Sq. schematic -- they're proposing a new traffic signal at the Phillips entrance in the middle of the development. Do they KNOW how fast cars come off 95 onto Phillips?  These cars are coming off a major highway going 50-70 mph (before they slow to the 45 mph of Phillips) -- and now they are going to stop for a traffic signal?

I just don't understand how the traffic reality of this massive development isn't being addressed...yet.

In the road realignment concept, they're also showing a new signal on Atlantic that will apparently be designed to move traffic south toward Phillips via White Ave. This will become a huge enticement to traffic that currently has to run down Atlantic to Phillips or Hendricks to go south on this new cut-through.

With this potential new routing -- that traffic will divert onto the White now, speeding past Douglas Anderson High School (small street/dangerous), and down the "new" River Oaks (small street/dangerous).

Most of the neighbors I've spoken with over the past week, as this thing is getting more attention and notice, are not as concerned about the development component as they are about the amount of traffic that is going to be fed onto VERY SMALL STREETS that can't handle it.

Again, this makes ABSOLUTELY no sense whatsoever. It might look easy on an overhead view, but these are very narrow streets, with homes and schools and on-street parking. There is NO way they can handle this traffic realignment.

More power to you on the infill development stuff, I have no problem with the attempt to use space more efficiently and get some of the blight off Phillips. But, this cannot be done in a way that makes life dangerous for people who live on small neighborhood streets that abut this area. 

If they planned one of these in your backyard, you'd probably feel the same way.

If they would simply close the RR crossing at River Oaks, there will be a LOT less concern from the River Oaks neighborhood -- from the neighbors, who will not have to be afraid the kids playing in their front yards will be hit by a bus or by the thousands of cars that will be using this small street and from the potential apartment dwellers, who won't have to hear train horns in their ears all day/night. I'm sure FEC, CSX and NS would love it, too.

[JeffreyS]

Let me say again development is the only answer for your trafic situation. That is where the money comes from to take care of the problem. Do not say we have bad trffic so do not develop. Say we want to develop so take care of our trafic so we can.

[thelakelander]

JeffreyS is right.  River Oak residents need to take advantage of the developer's investment in this property to push towards the implementation of a solution that benefits all parties.  Leaving things along Philips the way they are now is not the right thing to do, but neither is funneling traffic into the additional existing neighborhoods in the area.  Maybe closing off the River Oaks crossing is the best thing to do to accomodate both sides.