Issues with Bethel Baptist Parking Area

[Ocklawaha]

Bethel can get over it, just like I'm about over this forum. I offer thoughtful content on a pretty regular basis. Content that you as the provider get to exploit.  "Screw" was maybe a little harsh, but that was for me and the readers of my post to decide.

Keeping forums open and treating people like they have brains is the best antidote for falling into the same trap.

Nobody suggested you were missing these:

brain (brn)
n.
1.
a. The portion of the vertebrate central nervous system that is enclosed within the cranium, continuous with the spinal cord, and composed of gray matter and white matter. It is the primary center for the regulation and control of bodily activities, receiving and interpreting sensory impulses, and transmitting information to the muscles and body organs. It is also the seat of consciousness, thought, memory, and emotion.
b. A functionally similar portion of the invertebrate nervous system.
2.
a. Intellectual ability; mind: a dull brain; a quick brain.
b. Intellectual power; intelligence. Often used in the plural: has brains and good looks.


You yourself stated your post was without these:

manners plural of man·ner (Noun)
Noun
A way in which a thing is done or happens: "taking notes in an unobtrusive manner".

Which brings us to these - which you violated:

rules  (rl)
n.
1.
a. Governing power or its possession or use; authority.
b. The duration of such power.

[iloveionia]

As a virtual outsider and non-Southerner, my nose crimps upward and my head shakes back and forth.  How tacky to allow regular parking on (what appears to be) park property.  Still tacky to park on vacant land (seemingly also owned by the city and not the church.) What image is projected to the public when this is allowed to happen?  Vacant lots here (not all, but many, and we have very few vacant lots) are fenced in by the city (the fences are actually nice) and often temporary 3-D art is placed in the lot or they are given out temporarily to local groups to use as community garden lots until the lots are developed or sold.  I live in a large urban suburb of Los Angeles that cares very deeply about how it looks.  It embraces progressiveness and hold businesses and organizations accountable, it also supports the beautification and sustainability of all our neighborhoods.   One of the first thoughts in my mind was that someone is getting paid.  Just not on paper.  I would be interested to hear how the church gives service to the community in which it resides.  Not saying it doesn't, I just don't know.  I'm with mlbwright: bring on the chickens. 

[Mathew1056]

Bethel can get over it, just like I'm about over this forum. I offer thoughtful content on a pretty regular basis. Content that you as the provider get to exploit.  "Screw" was maybe a little harsh, but that was for me and the readers of my post to decide.

Keeping forums open and treating people like they have brains is the best antidote for falling into the same trap.

Nobody suggested you were missing these:

brain (brn)
n.
1.
a. The portion of the vertebrate central nervous system that is enclosed within the cranium, continuous with the spinal cord, and composed of gray matter and white matter. It is the primary center for the regulation and control of bodily activities, receiving and interpreting sensory impulses, and transmitting information to the muscles and body organs. It is also the seat of consciousness, thought, memory, and emotion.
b. A functionally similar portion of the invertebrate nervous system.
2.
a. Intellectual ability; mind: a dull brain; a quick brain.
b. Intellectual power; intelligence. Often used in the plural: has brains and good looks.


You yourself stated your post was without these:

manners plural of man·ner (Noun)
Noun
A way in which a thing is done or happens: "taking notes in an unobtrusive manner".

Which brings us to these - which you violated:

rules  (rl)
n.
1.
a. Governing power or its possession or use; authority.
b. The duration of such power.

I don't think I have to restate why changing someone's thought on an open forum suggest that they don't have brains. I'm actually more offended that you feel I need a course on the meaning of brains. I'm starting to think my brains are better served elsewhere.

[duvaldude08]

I do agree though that Bethel's surrounding's should benefit more from it than it does. a perfect example is what the Potter's house has done on the westside. Bethel's surrounding's and neighborhood should benefit much more from the church than it does. That's my only stance on it.

Probably would if SPAR hadnt spent the previous decade doing everything in their power to harrass, threaten and alienate the church.

Seems a pretty simple thing to find some decent people like Gloria and Christina and Amanda to go over, reach out and ask how best to create solutions for everyone.

Good point Stephen.

[Tacachale]

If it's city park land not intended for parking, I'd think there would be some simple solutions that would help there: adding a hedge, greening up the space a bit, making it clear it's a community space and not just another empty lot. If the church needs parking I'm sure they could work something out with FSCJ on the weekends, there's a lot more spaces there than on that lot. However this is one of many areas of Hogan's Creek that needs a lot of help.

Does the city own the lot north of 1st? If not there's not much to be done with that.

[BridgeTroll]

While this may be publicly owned land... does anyone know if this is a "park"?  Perhaps the church has permission from the city to use this unimproved piece of public land??

[thelakelander]

The city owns both lots. However, I'm not sure they are considered parkland. In the past, they had buildings on them.

[Debbie Thompson]

I recall a few years ago when there was an effort by the city to deed that land to Bethel for parking, since they tended to use it anyway without asking.  Those of us who live in Springfield said strongly if the park land were going to be used for parking, it should be public parking, and not deeded over to Bethel Baptist, who would generally only use it Wednesday and Sunday, and then it would not be available for events in the park.  I actually didn't know the outcome, but if it's to be used for parking, it should belong to the public.

That's not a slam on Bethel Baptist.  Just a fact that events in Klutho Park lack parking space, and if that large lot is to be used for parking, it should be available to everyone all the time.  That's all I'm saying.

That said, Chris Farley mentioned that parking on that land compresses it, and endangers the muddy banks and muddy bottom of Hogans Creek in that location due to the compression of the weight of the parked cars.  So maybe it shouldn't be parking at all, but instead be part of the park.

As for approaching Bethel Baptist, I know several people have tried.  Maybe because the church draws from all over the City, and isn't really a "local Springfield" church, they don't seem to get involved in Springfield.  Again, not a slam on Bethel, as First Baptist is literally on the edge of Springfield, and also doesn't get involved in the neighborhood a lot...some but not a lot...probably because they draw membership from all over the city too.

[wafflez]

I KNOW WHAT'LL SOLVE THE PARKING ISSUE! CONSTRUCTING A LIGHT RAIL STATION THERE! SOLUTIONS!

ALSO - this thread and it's constant bickering by the same people who always perpetuate the same boring banter is a prime example why I dislike this site as much as I do. A poignant post about some interesting topic always turns into a mud slinging fest. Y'all need to cut out this sophomoric behavior and get over your bad selves already. Stop turning readers away. Please, I beg of you.

[BridgeTroll]

Just a fact that events in Klutho Park lack parking space, and if that large lot is to be used for parking, it should be available to everyone all the time. 

Just asking... If someone drove there right now and pulled in and parked... would they be ticketed or chased away?

[BridgeTroll]

I didnt think so... So basically anyone can park there... or spread a blanket and picnic there.  It is just another of the cities vast holdings of empty space that some people occasionally use to park on.

[Mathew1056]

The whole reason I posted this was to get attention on the issue, and further insight. This was not a blind attack on Bethel. I've talked to congregation members on the ground. They were well informed on the issue, and quite hostile, just by the mere inquiry. You can stick to your rules justification for censoring my post. It was not intending to be uncivil, I was speaking to a crowd of what I thought was open minded individuals, doubting it included those who attend Bethel. I now see that Stephan is a stanch supporter Bethel's brand of crazy.

Attack SPAR all you want. Make the claim that they didn't reach out a hand to Bethel. Bethel members should have been able to step out of their vehicles and see the trash surrounding their church. It should have been a no brainer that a clean up could always be used around their facility. Churches are supposed to be doing the kind of work that betters our community. Isn't that why they don't pay taxes. Instead we allow them to build mega-churches without properly planned parking, and let them use municipal parks for their personal transportation, and yes, south of 1st is considered part of the park.

I'm sad to say, but I've decided to cancel my membership with this site. I have enjoyed the content on this blog, but I feel that some of those involved are not the type of people I want to be supporting. My time and input are better spent elsewhere.

[Tacachale]

Oh come now, Mathew. There's nothing to be gained from hostile words, and the site's owners can moderate it however they want. I'm happy they do so, it keeps the place mostly civil and away from becoming the jax.com comments section.

[Ocklawaha]

ORIGINAL PHOTO




AERIAL WITH ELEVATION CONTOURS





AERIAL WITH CITY LOTS AND BOUNDARY'S





AERIAL WITH CONTOURS, LOTS, AND BUILDING FOOTPRINTS





LOTS, FLOOD ZONES, CONTOURS AND STREETS





FLOOD ZONES AND LOTS






BUILDING FOOTPRINTS AND LOT NUMBERS

MEANWHILE, BACK TO MATTHEW'S POST

It was not intending to be uncivil, I was speaking to a crowd of what I thought was open minded individuals, doubting it included those who attend Bethel. I now see that Stephan is a stanch supporter Bethel's brand of crazy.

I find it interesting that in one sentence you indicate you thought we were similar 'open minded' individuals, and in the next sentence, you state that 'Bethel's leadership and members are crazy.' So much for an open mind. How many of their services have you attended to make such a statement?

Attack SPAR all you want. Make the claim that they didn't reach out a hand to Bethel.

Perhaps Stephen is aware of SPAR reaching out to Bethel, I'm certainly not. As for attacking SPAR, they attacked (actually assaulted) us, en masse.

Churches are supposed to be doing the kind of work that betters our community. Isn't that why they don't pay taxes. Instead we allow them to build mega-churches without properly planned parking, and let them use municipal parks for their personal transportation, and yes, south of 1st is considered part of the park.

Your logic fails me. Churches are supposed to be doing good works in the community, but because we have allowed some members to park in the edge of a city park you concluded they're not doing good works and shouldn't be tax exempt?

I'm sad to say, but I've decided to cancel my membership with this site. I have enjoyed the content on this blog, but I feel that some of those involved are not the type of people I want to be supporting. My time and input are better spent elsewhere.

Wow, just freaking wow man. We tweak the thread title for civility and from that you have:

Accused us of attacking SPAR
Attacked Stephendare in your posts.
Decided we are not 'open minded people'.
Concluded Bethel does nothing good in the community.
Reasoned that we are connected with Bethel.
Come up with reasons to revoke tax exemption.
Chose to quit MJ

[thelakelander]

For what it's worth, I just looked at a series of sanborn maps between 1913 and 1958.  It appears, at least in those years, neither of these parcels were used as park land.  The park was on the north side of the creek.  In the late 20's the creek was channelized a little north of the original creek, so a portion of the north parcel was originally low lying swamp and creek bed.  Nevertheless, the uses on the two parcels in discussion were residential a century ago and eventually become industrial (Berrier's Ice Cream plant - north parcel) and automotive repair related (south parcel).

Sanborn map of the lot south of 1st Street in 1958:


Sanborn map of the lot north of 1st Street in 1958: