Maybe First Baptist Church is not so powerful...

[civil42806]

Does anyone actually read Rons posts all the way through, quite frankly they read like a third year master degrees thesis

[ronchamblin]

Today on Huffington Post:

"PHILADELPHIA (AP) â€" A couple serving probation for the 2009 death of their toddler after they turned to prayer instead of a doctor could face new charges now that another son has died.

Herbert and Catherine Schaible belong to a fundamentalist Christian church that believes in faith healing. They lost their 8-month-old son, Brandon, last week after he suffered from diarrhea and breathing problems for at least a week, and stopped eating. Four years ago, another son died from bacterial pneumonia."

We were discussing the idea of faith earlier.  The above illustrates individuals who ascribe to the use of faith to an extreme.  Unfortunately the two children suffered and died because of it.  The use of religious faith, whether in an attempt to solve problems, to heal another, or to allow one to release worry, is in any case avoiding the process of positive problem solving; that is, taking the proper action to solve problems.  Excessive use of faith is either a consequence of one's dependent or desperate condition, or simply the result of one's habit of shifting responsibility to others.  To encourage or promote the act of faith is to create a community of individuals who do not act, but only wish, hope, and wait for something or somebody to solve their problems.     

[Ocklawaha]

" And does saying something is supernatural mean that we cannot expend effort on trying to understand it scientifically?"

Yes. Science makes the a priori assumption that it is measuring and assessing objective reality- the natural world.  (The Supernatural -OCK.) outside the realm of objective scientific inquiry.

One can analyze the materials, chemical content, history, social context, artistic expression, narrative of emotional impact, weight and various components of the Mona Lisa, or a Rembrandt but that does not help evaluate whether one masterwork is "better" than another.

I disagree, facts about the solar system were "outside the purview of science," prior to middle age discoveries. Actually Latin American natives were WAY AHEAD of European science in this area. Nothing supernatural should be outside of the study of science any more then the composition of distant planets, black holes, worm holes or the big bang... all of which may have evidence but no truly tangible facts. For all we know, the rock called Pluto might be made of green cheese, and until we get there, the best science is just a elaborate guess.

So it is with the super natural, there are a few real scientists that are dedicated to finding a way to measure this field and perhaps even make that long sought "First Contact." However in my heart and mind I'd say that "First Contact," has already been made, and will come again. Perhaps Doctor Rupert Sheldrake, biochemist at Cambridge University and his team will see it before anyone else. http://www.sheldrake.org/homepage.html

As for the "measurement of history" your argument crumbles, and it crumbles just on the basis of Christian texts alone. I want to toss out just a few examples though I could greatly expand on them.
To wit:

Titus Lucretius Carus (ca. 99 BC â€" ca. 55 BC) was a Roman poet and philosopher. His only known work is the epic philosophical poem De rerum natura. 2 surviving texts.

Hermes - The Emerald Tablet of Hermes is the original source of Hermetic Philosophy and Alchemy. According to one legend, the text was originally carved by Hermes on tablets of emerald and placed in the King’s Chamber of the Great Pyramid of Cheops. While such stories are probably apocryphal, the document has been well known to scholars and philosophers since at least the 10th century. No surviving original copy.

Demosthenes - 384â€"322 BC, was a prominent Greek statesman and orator of ancient Athens. His orations constitute a significant expression of contemporary Athenian life. 8 surviving texts. Earliest surviving copy dated 1100 A.D., 800 years after the original text, 8 surviving copies.

Herodotus - 480-425 B.C. was an ancient Greek historian who was born in Halicarnassus, Caria (modern day Bodrum, Turkey) and  is called the father of history [see Cicero De legibus 1.5: "Herodotum patrem historiae"]. Earliest surviving copy 900 A.D., 1,300 years after the original texts, 8 surviving copies.

Plato - wrote his works from 427-347 BC. The earliest manuscript copy of Plato’s writing in existence today was written in 900 AD. That is 1,200 years after Plato’s death! And there are only 2 copies of these manuscripts in existence.

Aristotle - 384-322 B.C. Aristotle was born in Stagira in north Greece, the son of Nichomachus, the court physician to the Macedonian royal family. Aristotle was a Greek philosopher and polymath, a student of Plato. Earliest surviving texts dated 1100 A.D., 1,400 years since the original texts, 49 surviving copies of copies.

Tallus - Tallus was a secular historian who (circa AD52) wrote a history of the Eastern Mediterranean from the Trojan War to his own time. The document no longer exists but it was quoted by other writers.

Gaius Cornelius Tacitus - circa 100 A.D.  The surviving portions of his two major worksâ€"the Annals and the Historiesâ€"examine the reigns of the Roman Emperors Tiberius, Claudius, Nero, and those who reigned in the Year of the Four Emperors (AD 69). We have five surviving works by Tacitus, with some notable large gaps in the Histories. The earliest surviving fragmental copies date from 1100 A.D., 1000 years later then the originals, 20 known partial copies.

Lucian - (Born 115 AD) was a well-known Greek satirist and traveling lecturer. More than eighty works bear his name. He mocked Christians in his writing, but at the same time provided evidence that Jesus really did exist:

Gaius Julius Caesar -  lived from 100-44 B.C., and the earliest manuscript copy of his writings dates back to 900 AD, putting our best evidence of Caesar ever existing 1,000 years after his death. And there are 10 copies of ancient manuscripts of Caesar’s Gallic Wars,.

Homer - (900 B.B.) Homer, who historians are not even sure ever really existed even today, is credited with writing the Iliad in ca 900 BC. The earliest manuscript copy of the Iliad dates to 400 BC. Meaning the only proof of Homer or the Iliad being accurate is from 500 years after the death of Homer. Additionally there are 643 copies of ancient manuscripts of the Iliad written over the centuries that when compared against each other by experts have a 95.3 consistency and accuracy, making it one of the most reliable and proven documents of antiquity. The earliest copies of his works are from 400 B.C. some 500 years after his probable death, there are 643 surviving text copies.

William Shakespeare - William Shakespeare was an English poet and playwright, widely regarded as the greatest writer in the English language and the world's pre-eminent dramatist.. His famous work Macbeth is that contained in the 1623 "First Folio," the first published collection of Shakespeare's plays, one surviving original text.

ACCURACY TEST:

Old Testament, Holy Bible - Prior to 1948, some of the earliest complete manuscripts of various books of the Old Testament dated to around 900 to 1000 A.D. However, in 1947, some Bedouin shepherds were looking for some lost sheep in the hill sides surrounding the Dead Sea in Israel. Copies of the Old Testament were produced by trained Jewish scribes who would copy portions of Scripture by hand on animal skins. Around 100 B.C., these scribes began to use papyrus or paper to copy the Old Testament. When these Jews copied various portions of the Bible, they took extreme care to ensure the precision of their scribal copying. In fact, in some cases, if there was one error between a copy and the original, the copy was to be burned. When scholars compared the Isaiah scroll to our earliest copies of Isaiah previous to then (900 to 1000 A.D.), they found that there were only about 13 textual variations. Regarding Isaiah 53, which predicts the suffering and death of Jesus, they only found one variation in the entire chapter that had any possible significance: putting "light" in Isaiah 53:11.

HISTORY TEST:

New Testament, Holy Bible - (1st Cent. A.D. to 50-100 A.D. to 2nd Cent. A.D. 130) There are thousands more Greek New Testament manuscripts than any other ancient writing.  The internal consistency of the New Testament documents is about 99.5% textually pure.  That is an amazing accuracy.  In addition there are 5600 copies dated within 100 years of the events and over 19,000 copies in the Syriac, Latin, Coptic, and Aramaic languages.  The total supporting New Testament manuscript base is over 24,000 copies.

"To encourage or promote the act of faith is to create a community of individuals who do not act, but only wish, hope..."

...and pray for divine guidance among the professionals taking care of their children. We could exchange completely lame stories of Bozo's that refused transfusions because of some religious belief, or others who massacred 45 million people in China in 4 years because of a lack of religious belief. This proves nothing more then you and I can come up with sad, tragic and pathetic stories Ron.

Luke - the author of the third Gospel and the book of Actsâ€"is of special interest for several reasons. While the historic evidence favors a Greek origin of Luke, the Textual evidence does not. So either Luke was written in Aramaic, or the original Greek has been lost. He was the only Gentile who wrote any of the books of the Bible. Furthermore, he was the only scientist among the writers.

He is also recognized as a great historian, with his excellent accounts of the key events of the most important era in the history of the world. He also was undoubtedly a devoted Christian, a truth especially demonstrated by his unselfish service and companionship to the apostle Paul. Finally, he was probably the first Christian apologist, zealously concerned to defend and establish the absolute truth of the gospel of Christ.

Luke As Scientist and Medical Doctor

We know nothing for certain about Luke's background or his medical training. He was called "the beloved physician" by Paul (Colossians 4:14), and undoubtedly one reason for his ongoing association with Paul was the latter's need for frequent medical care.

Paul spoke of his "thorn in the flesh," (II Corinthians 12:7), for example, and his "infirmities" (II Corinthians 12:9). We don't know what these were, although they affected him "in the flesh," and thus presumably needed a doctor's care from time to time. Paul had also suffered much actual physical persecution during his ministry (see II Corinthians 11:23-27), and undoubtedly needed Luke's medical help on many occasions. We can assume that Dr. Luke could have built up a comfortable practice in such a city as Antioch (where he probably met Paul), but he chose instead to serve the Lord in this sacrificial and much-needed capacity of helping Paul. As a scientist, it is interesting to me that the only one of Paul's followers who stayed with him to the end was also a scientist (II Timothy 4:11).

So Ron? Why would I, as a Christian, or as a practicing Jew, with a solid education in history and Biblical studies, not seek the very best care for myself and my family?  Every culture has its mentally challenged or criminally insane, but we can not lay this on any religious or atheist belief.

[Ocklawaha]

But Ock.  How can that be?

I thought Europeans invented science in the great Enlightenment?

Shear Genius! LOL!

[Ocklawaha]

Hermes - The Emerald Tablet of Hermes is the original source of Hermetic Philosophy and Alchemy. According to one legend, the text was originally carved by Hermes on tablets of emerald and placed in the King’s Chamber of the Great Pyramid of Cheops. While such stories are probably apocryphal, the document has been well known to scholars and philosophers since at least the 10th century. No surviving original copy.

To hear a true New Age, Space Cadet version with an English translation of the Emerald Tablets (and some pretty cool space images) check out Constance Demby's Sunborne.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gCtN-8YcCXM&list=PLE080EC5BB088730C

[ronchamblin]

So Ron? Why would I, as a Christian, or as a practicing Jew, with a solid education in history and Biblical studies, not seek the very best care for myself and my family?  Every culture has its mentally challenged or criminally insane, but we can not lay this on any religious or atheist belief.    Quote from Ock.

You are correct Ock.  There are the mentally deficient who extend their behavior to extremes, just as the couple did in the Huff Post article.  Obviously something is missing in both their heads.  And too, you make sense in stating that it is somewhat useless and baseless to expend too many words trying to link the religious influence to those who are mentally challenged or insane.   

Apparently the two individuals experiencing the extreme faith acts came together in the first place because they were both a little deficient.  It is unusual to have two nuts together, just as it is unusual to have a community mostly populated by mentally deficient individuals.  When the number of apparent nuts or odd thinking individuals increases within a large population, one might suspect the influence of religion or perhaps some kind of cult.  Any population has within it a broad spectrum of individuals from the obviously "slow" to the balanced genius, which is what I call the individual who has extreme intelligence, but who also does not lack the social skills which sometimes plagues the savant-like geniuses.

Just as anybody who wished to live another day, and who finds themselves in a distressed aircraft heading toward a crash, would rather have a pilot who used every human skill possible to save the aircraft, and would not wish to have a pilot who throws up his hands and prays, there are some who sense the same dynamics of survival and progress within the general population, and with mundane problems in governing and addressing the wrongs which have evolved within society.

While the praying pilot would cause the death of all in the aircraft, the excessively praying citizen, professional, or politician, depending on his or her position and status, will influence the well-being of the other citizenry according to the degree to which he or she attends directly to any problems using secular and rational skills, and avoids the act of praying to influence or attempt accomplishing the tasks needed to achieve the goals set before them. 

So, what I'm saying is that, just as all on the distressed aircraft must live, so too, all in a society or a community must live with the best standard of living as possible, which might include a good measure of equality, fairness, and opportunity, which might include conditions reducing the suffering to all, and that these goals can best be achieved with sober and secular skills, without the excessive influence of, and practicing of, prayer and faith, as the latter two activities seem to give cover to incompetence, opportunism, favoritism, complacency, and stagnation.     

 

[ronchamblin]

Stephen.  Forgive me for being honest, but you make little sense.  Please try to make at least some sense so that we can have a conversation.

[ronchamblin]

Again Stephen.  Please apply greater effort to communication skills.  You drift to hogwash too often, and I think many people will agree with this opinion.  This drifting, and twisting, and avoiding, and junk.... it simply degrades the forum environment.   Try to stay on subject without simply bashing another.  If you bash someone, do it clearly, giving good reason why you feel qualified in doing so, and exactly why the person warrants bashing.  To simply throw stones is rather tiring and, as I've said, it degrades the forum.

[ronchamblin]

You twist all too excessively, to the degree that I have not the time nor patience to engage it.  So I will end my engagement on this topic, as it descends to the juvenile.  You are not clever, as you would like the lackeys to believe.  You are shallow, and rather ignorant.

[PeeJayEss]

PeeJayEss, Forgive me, but I think I need a supernatural explanation to see the connection between your questions and deductions and the original statements.

Are you sure you don't want to ask Starbuck why they hate Science so much?

Or democracy?

Or motherhood?

What?

Not trying to bust your chops here PeeJayEss but what are the qualifiers for these two statements?  In essence, how do you know either claim to be true?

PeeJayEss:Since we are not born with knowledge of the supernatural, there has to be a story for how that belief was formed in our mind. The story of that belief, at least, is open for scrutiny.

Everyone in the world believes something. At a minimum, 70% of them are wrong, so I think its something worth debating.

The first one: We're not born with knowledge of the supernatural. Nothing controversial there. We are born with knowledge of the inside of the womb and some sounds we hear on the outside (hopefully Mozart), and some instinctual prompts (keep your fingers out of my eye! probably). No baby has ever come out and proclaimed "Jesus Christ is my savior!" Not even Jesus knew he was Jesus, and he was Jesus! So the belief that you have faith in got into your head in some manner. There is a story. It came from people. All people are fallible (except the pope, even though everything he ever learned he learned from other people that were fallible) and nothing is perfect. So if nothing else, there is room for perfecting your belief.

The second one is pretty straightforward. Christians are the biggest religious group and makeup about 30% of the population. So at a maximum, their version of God is correct, and 70% of the population is wrong. If any other group is correct, then more than 70% of the population is wrong. And if the group that is correct is one that ascribes to a belief that all non-believers, non-converts, etc are not to be saved, then being wrong will be a major problem for the rest of us. If we are truth-seekers or want everyone to be saved, then we should debate the issue. "Faith" should not be an excuse to close one's mind.

" And does saying something is supernatural mean that we cannot expend effort on trying to understand it scientifically?"

Yes. Science makes the a priori assumption that it is measuring and assessing objective reality- the natural world. It lacks the tools to make a comparable assessment of supernatural phenomena. The supernatural realm by definition is outside scientific inquiry. Now science can be used to assess the natural manifestations of the supernatural (if any). For example, one can assess the social satisfaction, life expectancy, and general health metrics of religious persons and determine that they compare more favorably than with the metrics of non-religious. That might be "evidence" of a sort.

Supernatural assertions in the natural world have measurable validity, but that does not rule out a placebo effect and is not irrefutable "proof" of supernatural existence in a strict sense used by physical sciences. Ultimately our relationship with the supernatural comes down to "belief" or "faith". That takes the entire argument (by its essential nature) outside the realm of objective scientific inquiry.

One can analyze the materials, chemical content, history, social context, artistic expression, narrative of emotional impact, weight and various components of the Mona Lisa, or a Rembrandt but that does not help evaluate whether one masterwork is "better" than another. Ultimately that is in the heart and mind of the observer as a work of art speaks to the viewer during a specific experience of viewing at a certain point of time.

Likewise, religion and science are separate disciplines, each having its own criterion (tools) for evaluation... leading to my analogy of using a hammer for plumbing. Sometimes you might loosen a pipe, and sometimes all you might do is to break it.

But how do you know that something is, in fact, supernatural?
If the supernatural does not have any natural manifestations, how do you know about it at all?
The general health an happiness of religious vs non-religious may say something about holding religious beliefs, but it says nothing about whether those beliefs are well-founded.

The judgement of art is an example where, because you don't personally understand what is happening, you call it supernatural. Research can show that certain color combinations or patterns are aesthetically appealing. If a piece of art appeals to you because of a certain experience you had, what it reminds you of, who it reminds you of, who you saw it with, etc, that can be explained scientifically too. The only limitation on predicting what a particular person will judge as pleasing or a work of art is the size of your data set. If you knew everything about how the brain perceives and organizes visual art as well as the past experiences and current state of the viewer, you sure would be able to predict what they like.

I still don't understand the plumbing analogy, but what are the religious tools for evaluation? The ones of science are obvious, but how does one critically evaluate a religious belief? If someone says something is true and it is their religious belief, does that just end the conversation? The mere fact that there is such a variety of things that people have faith in indicates that the faith of some (most, in fact) is misplaced. This isn't science versus religion, this is faith versus faith, science is agnostic.

[Cheshire Cat]

PeeJayEss: 

The second one is pretty straightforward. Christians are the biggest religious group and makeup about 30% of the population. So at a maximum, their version of God is correct, and 70% of the population is wrong. If any other group is correct, then more than 70% of the population is wrong. And if the group that is correct is one that ascribes to a belief that all non-believers, non-converts, etc are not to be saved, then being wrong will be a major problem for the rest of us. If we are truth-seekers or want everyone to be saved, then we should debate the issue. "Faith" should not be an excuse to close one's mind.

Thank you and I definitely agree with the last two sentences PJ. 

[ronchamblin]

The following is selected quotes from Huff Post article from today:

"Chilean police on Thursday arrested four people accused of burning a baby alive in a ritual because the leader of the sect believed that the end of the world was near and that the child was the antichrist. .... The 3-day-old baby was taken to a hill in the town of Colliguay near the Chilean port of Valparaiso on Nov. 21 and was thrown into a bonfire. The baby's mother, 25-year-old Natalia Guerra, had allegedly approved the sacrifice and was among those arrested.

"The baby was naked. They strapped tape around her mouth to keep her from screaming. Then they placed her on a board. After calling on the spirits they threw her on the bonfire alive," said Miguel Ampuero, of the Police investigative Unit, Chile's equivalent of the FBI.  .... 

"Everyone in this sect was a professional," Ampuero said. "We have someone who was a veterinarian and who worked as a flight attendant, we have a filmmaker, a draftsman. Everyone has a university degree. "



Religion anyone?

[Cheshire Cat]

The following is selected quotes from Huff Post article from today:

"Chilean police on Thursday arrested four people accused of burning a baby alive in a ritual because the leader of the sect believed that the end of the world was near and that the child was the antichrist. .... The 3-day-old baby was taken to a hill in the town of Colliguay near the Chilean port of Valparaiso on Nov. 21 and was thrown into a bonfire. The baby's mother, 25-year-old Natalia Guerra, had allegedly approved the sacrifice and was among those arrested.

"The baby was naked. They strapped tape around her mouth to keep her from screaming. Then they placed her on a board. After calling on the spirits they threw her on the bonfire alive," said Miguel Ampuero, of the Police investigative Unit, Chile's equivalent of the FBI.  .... 

"Everyone in this sect was a professional," Ampuero said. "We have someone who was a veterinarian and who worked as a flight attendant, we have a filmmaker, a draftsman. Everyone has a university degree. "



Religion anyone?

Oh my goodness Ron!  This is your come back discussion on a thread you said was becoming juvenile?  Have mercy!

Imagine the surprise of readers who want to find out about whether or not First Baptist Church is "so" powerful only to be led down a path of discussion about religious beliefs in general to now find a bizarre article discussing the barbaric actions of a cult in Chile who in their insanity killed a child.  That is murder plain and simple and the sad truth is that people all across the world abuse and kill children every day and it has nothing to do with religion.  I think this thread has found it's end or it should have found it's end with this enlightening article intended to draw a parallel between those who murder children and religion.  This is perhaps the final insult I think one could level at people who embrace religion by pretending this kind of insanity is indicative of those of good heart who believe in a higher power. This is a bit too much I think Ron, really a bit too much.

[TheCat]

"Everyone in this sect was a professional," Ampuero said. "We have someone who was a veterinarian and who worked as a flight attendant, we have a filmmaker, a draftsman. Everyone has a university degree. "

college anyone?

[Cheshire Cat]

"Everyone in this sect was a professional," Ampuero said. "We have someone who was a veterinarian and who worked as a flight attendant, we have a filmmaker, a draftsman. Everyone has a university degree. "

college anyone?

Hehehe.....Clever cat!