Maybe First Baptist Church is not so powerful...

[PeeJayEss]

Be honest, metrojax, you guys are paying If_I_Loved_you to jibbertroll.

[Cheshire Cat]

Well I don't want to define Ron's personality or say he has a disorder.  lol  He just has different opinions about things.  The rub is that he expresses those opinions in a tone of superior knowledge which stems from ego/intellect.  The ego is a tricky thing and trips up humanity on a regular basis and that includes all of us. 

[PeeJayEss]

Be honest, metrojax, you guys are paying If_I_Loved_you to jibbertroll.

well not everyone will write things like:

"It (zero) is a definition either of a null count or some arbitrary, discrete point of measure. It is a tool, not an item whose existence can be questioned."

for free.

Call me altruistic if you will, I am simply concerned with improving the math skills of artists.

[ronchamblin]

Ron, how did you determine "our local thinking"?  My point is how exactly do you know what is in the hearts and minds of others beyond a self decided interpretation of what others believe, even when it comes to how they interpret this universe or a divinity?

You did not answer the question I posed to you originally, which is how did you come to the realization that you above all other people have the correct interpretation of this universe and all experiences of humanity?  In reading your posts I have a hard time imagining that you ever step outside of a very closed box of personal thinking.  It has been my experience that doing that leads to myopic views.  Your first line says it all when you use the words "My objective".  You come to the conversation with an objective which is in fact to sway folks over to your views and to open their minds to other possibilities while yours is apparently closed.  lol

My observations over the years allow me to sense a local thinking population which has a majority of individuals within it accustomed to, and comfortable in, believing in a god.  However, I sense too that there is a growing population which is “on my side” if you will.  If you suggest that I attempt to sway others to my view --I certainly do, so that I might counteract the constant local momentum of pressure as conveyed by hundreds of churches attempting to sway as many as possible to their way of absurd thinking, and tugging at their valuable time and assets while doing so.

I only attempt to argue against frivolities in the mind, against the shirking of responsibilities onto some god, and back onto our own shoulders, where it belongs.  I urge sober thinking, so that we local yokels can make some progress in our urban core, so that we can break the habit of stagnation in it.  We need to move on, to break from the habits which have contributed to the comfortable and complacent mood, which only allows for inaction, where action is needed.
   
I suggest that my mind is quite open to all things in the universe, and not closed by a religious system which, by its nature, attempts to restrict the learning of its followers so as to keep them in the fold of ignorance necessary for its continued existence. 


"Once, a cobra bit Chuck Norris's leg.  After five days of excruciating pain, the cobra died."

[Cheshire Cat]

Ron, how did you determine "our local thinking?"  My point is how exactly do you know what is in the hearts and minds of others beyond a self decided interpretation of what others believe, even when it comes to how they interpret this universe or a divinity?

You did not answer the question I posed to you originally, which is how did you come to the realization that you above all other people have the correct interpretation of this universe and all experiences of humanity?  In reading your posts I have a hard time imagining that you ever step outside of a very closed box of personal thinking.  It has been my experience that doing that leads to myopic views.  Your first line says it all when you use the words "My objective".  You come to the conversation with an objective which is in fact to sway folks over to your views and to open their minds to other possibilities while yours is apparently closed.  lol

My observations over the years allow me to sense a local thinking population which has a majority of individuals within it accustomed to, and comfortable in, believing in a god.  However, I sense too that there is a growing population which is “on my side” if you will.  If you suggest that I attempt to sway others to my view --I certainly do, so that I might counteract the constant local momentum of pressure as conveyed by hundreds of churches attempting to sway as many as possible to their way of absurd thinking, and tugging at their valuable time and assets while doing so.

I only attempt to argue against frivolities in the mind, against the shirking of responsibilities onto some god, and back onto our own shoulders, where it belongs.  I urge sober thinking, so that we local yokels can make some progress in our urban core, so that we can break the habit of stagnation in it.  We need to move on, to break from the habits which have contributed to the comfortable and complacent mood, which only allows for inaction, where action is needed.
   
I suggest that my mind is quite open to all things in the universe, and not closed by a religious system which, by its nature, attempts to restrict the learning of its followers so as to keep them in the fold of ignorance necessary for its continued existence. 


"Once, a cobra bit Chuck Norris's leg.  After five days of excruciating pain, the cobra died."

I don't think it is necessary to take sides when it comes to beliefs.  What I do believe is that it is important to value different views, perspectives and beliefs as long as those holding the beliefs do not attempt to impose them on others.  The problem with your statements in my opinion is that they are narrow in parameter and speak only to your perspective.    Making this an either/or is what makes the conversation about beliefs difficult and at times downright insulting to some.  You speak of science as an absolute yet many in scientific positions also believe in a divinity of some type. 

To say your observations of others is accurate because they are yours isn't proof of anything other than a view.  It says nothing about whether or not you have immersed yourself in any way into the doings of a person with specific religious beliefs so that you may taste what it is they experience.  Are your observations based simply upon what you have read and your perceptions about what you see (which by the way are perceptions and not science) or rather upon real experience immersed in other cultures, their rituals and understandings?  I am not suggesting that you should change your views but am want to know if your views are as myopic in origin as they seem.  For instance have you traveled to other countries and immersed yourself in their cultures and beliefs?  Have you experienced what they experience on their terms?  I have and can tell you that the experience can be profound in ways that cannot be imagined unless the experience is personally felt. Experiences that defy current physics and science.

I think you are want to argue a certain experience as valid in life when in fact humanity is an expression of a variety of experiences and yes, realities in that in many cases perception is reality, as it is in your case apparently. 

Ron, you may be surprised to hear me say this but I do not personally feel comfortable with organized religion or a single faith, in spite of being brought up a Catholic. However I do not discount religious value in the lives of many people. We can argue whether the influence is good or bad and that would be pointless.  In many ways good or bad is in reality human conscience expressing itself.  It is what it is and we respond to it as we will in any given moment.  Simply put it is an experience that impacts us in some way.  The world and divinity is greater than a religion in my view.  Is divinity tantamount to belief in a supreme being as it were or lets say a "God" or does divinity mean something else entirely?  Your equation for existence leaves out the mystery, what is unknown.  In spite of what science may teach as absolute, there are no real absolutes in this universe as science describes it. I return to the case of dark matter which science now says forms the majority of our universe, but cannot say what it is.  If they can quantify it but yet have no idea what it is, then it remains a mystery.  I know you are well read and as such you must have been exposed to those in science who state that not all is known or understood in this universe.  For instance, is Pluto a planet or not?  For years science said it was, now some in science say it is not.  This is just one small example and not meant as a great declaration in any form but rather to point out that all is not known by humanity.  That unknown for many people is divinity, what cannot be explained.

I have the same argument when it comes to many organized religions as a standard for spiritual beliefs and behaviors in many instances because the core of most of these organizations is based upon someone or group of someones interpreting life and universe based upon their own views of ancient documents and teachings. In too many cases those someones doing all the interpretation are men, so we get stories like Adam and Eve (the woman being the reason they are cast from the Garden of Eden.  lol).  The same goes for other organized religions that say a woman must cover herself and be submissive.  Men historically have been known to come up with this nonsense, frame it in religion and feed it to the masses.  This has led to abuse, the use of fear and control to drive home a specific belief.  When one has to use this sort of lever to draw others into their fold as it were, then I question the beauty and strength of the divinity and God they claim to speak for. 

Perhaps it is in fact the variety of beliefs that will ultimately give humanity balance.  When one ideal, religion or view scientific or otherwise attempts to rule all thinking we are in great trouble as a thinking species.

[If_I_Loved_you]

Ron, how did you determine "our local thinking?"  My point is how exactly do you know what is in the hearts and minds of others beyond a self decided interpretation of what others believe, even when it comes to how they interpret this universe or a divinity?

You did not answer the question I posed to you originally, which is how did you come to the realization that you above all other people have the correct interpretation of this universe and all experiences of humanity?  In reading your posts I have a hard time imagining that you ever step outside of a very closed box of personal thinking.  It has been my experience that doing that leads to myopic views.  Your first line says it all when you use the words "My objective".  You come to the conversation with an objective which is in fact to sway folks over to your views and to open their minds to other possibilities while yours is apparently closed.  lol

My observations over the years allow me to sense a local thinking population which has a majority of individuals within it accustomed to, and comfortable in, believing in a god.  However, I sense too that there is a growing population which is “on my side” if you will.  If you suggest that I attempt to sway others to my view --I certainly do, so that I might counteract the constant local momentum of pressure as conveyed by hundreds of churches attempting to sway as many as possible to their way of absurd thinking, and tugging at their valuable time and assets while doing so.

I only attempt to argue against frivolities in the mind, against the shirking of responsibilities onto some god, and back onto our own shoulders, where it belongs.  I urge sober thinking, so that we local yokels can make some progress in our urban core, so that we can break the habit of stagnation in it.  We need to move on, to break from the habits which have contributed to the comfortable and complacent mood, which only allows for inaction, where action is needed.
   
I suggest that my mind is quite open to all things in the universe, and not closed by a religious system which, by its nature, attempts to restrict the learning of its followers so as to keep them in the fold of ignorance necessary for its continued existence. 


"Once, a cobra bit Chuck Norris's leg.  After five days of excruciating pain, the cobra died."

I don't think it is necessary to take sides when it comes to beliefs.  What I do believe is important is to value different views, perspectives and beliefs as long as they do not attempt to impose them on others.  The problem with your statements in my opinion is that they are narrow in parameter and speak only to your perspective.    Making this an either/or is what makes the conversation about beliefs difficult and at times downright insulting to some.  You speak of science as an absolute yet many in scientific positions also believe in a divinity of some type. 

To say your observations of others is accurate because they are yours isn't proof of anything other than a view.  It says nothing about whether or not you have immersed yourself in any way into the doings of a person with specific religious beliefs so that you may taste what it is they experience.  Are your observations based simply upon what you have read and your perceptions about what you see (which by the way are perceptions and not science) or rather upon real experience immersed in other cultures, their rituals and understandings?  I am not suggesting that you should change your views but am want to know if your views are as myopic in origin as they seem.  For instance have you traveled to other countries and immersed yourself in their cultures and beliefs?  Have you experienced what they experience on their terms?  I have and can tell you that the experience can be profound in ways that cannot be imagined unless the experience is personally felt. Experiences that defy current physics and science.

I think you are want to argue a certain experience as valid in life when in fact humanity is an expression of a variety of experiences and yes, realities in that in many cases perception is reality, as it is in your case apparently. 

Ron, you may be surprised to hear me say this but I do not personally feel comfortable with organized religion or a single faith, in spite of being brought up a Catholic. However I do not discount religious value in the lives of many people. We can argue whether the influence is good or bad and that would be pointless.  In many ways good or bad is in reality human conscience expressing itself.  It is what it is and we respond to it as we will in any given moment.  Simply put it is an experience that impacts us in some way.  The world and divinity is greater than a religion in my view.  Is divinity tantamount to belief in a supreme being as it were or lets say a "God" or does divinity mean something else entirely?  Your equation for existence leaves out the mystery, what is unknown.  In spite of what science may teach as absolute, there is no real absolutes in this universe as science describes it. I return to the case of dark matter which science now says forms the majority of our universe, but cannot say what it is.  If they can quantify it but yet have no idea what it is, then it remains a mystery.  I know you are well read and as such you must have been exposed to those in science who state that not all is known or understood in this universe.  For instance, is Pluto a planet or not?  For years science said it was, now some in science say it is not.  This is just one small example and not meant as a great declaration in any form but rather to point out that all is not known by humanity.  That unknown for many people is divinity, what cannot be explained.

I have the same argument when it comes to many organized religions as a standard for spiritual beliefs and behaviors in many instances because the core of most of these organizations is based upon someone or group of someones interpreting life and universe based upon their own views of ancient documents and teachings. In too many cases those someones doing all the interpretation are men, so we get stories like Adam and Eve (the woman being the reason they are cast from heaven lol).  The same goes for other organized religions that say a woman must cover herself and be submissive.  Men historically have been known to come up with this nonsense, frame it in religion and feed it to the masses.  This has led to abuse, the use of fear and control to drive home a specific belief.  When one has to use this sort of lever to draw others into their fold as it were, than I question the beauty and strength of the divinity and God they claim to speak for. 

Perhaps it is in fact the variety of beliefs that will ultimately give humanity balance.  When one ideal, religion or view scientific or otherwise attempts to rule all thinking we are in great trouble as a thinking species.

Cheshire Cat this posting is very good and I have enjoyed reading it. 

[Cheshire Cat]

^ I appreciate that. 

[If_I_Loved_you]

^ I appreciate that.

^ Your Welcome.

[ronchamblin]

Cheshire Cat â€" I appreciate your thoughtful and insightful comments, as for the most part they make good sense to me.  A little jousting in the world of religious belief is fun occasionally, but, even though it is fun, it is serious too, as the beliefs we hold regarding religion can affect our opinions and actions much more than we realize.  And I agree that the mysteries in religious thinking, and all the myths created by man, provide beneficial excitement to the imagination, giving adults the pleasures akin to those often enjoyed by children via fairy tales.
 
And too, I understand the need for many to engage in and reap the comforts in religious belief; and that one should be cautious while attempting to rip the beliefs away if there is no convenient replacement.  Of course, as history has shown, the power of religious belief is extreme, and not easily extracted from the believer, who is at times consumed by it.

[Cheshire Cat]

Thank you Ron for the civil discourse.  I do understand the things about organized religion that bother you and others. More importantly perhaps, I realize that for some the understandings of science make sense to them with regard to this universe. I do not stand in judgement of that belief.  For me personally, science falls short in explaining the "Great Mystery" of life which of course includes what happens to us when our physical body ceases to exist, as well as the goings on in other dimensions and alternate worlds which science affirms exist. 

For you and others the cessation of physical life spells the end of the entire human entity as there is no belief in spirit and soul, largely because science has no measure for it. That takes us to faith which does not equal folly or frivolity.  Faith is an inner knowing.  You have faith in science, others have faith in God.  For myself, the fact that science cannot yet measure divinity or the spiritual realm is a shortcoming of science at this stage in history and does not equal proof positive that the soul and spirit do not exist.    Science simply does not know how to measure "all that is" and it is folly to think that it can, especially when one considers that all science as expressed here on earth must first be processed through the mechanism of the human brain and ego.  Do I believe that there is an old man with a long white beard sitting on a cloud somewhere named "God"?  Honestly, no.  Do I look down on those who think this true?  Absolutely not.  Do I believe in the spirit, soul and creative consciousness as expressed through the human being as an extension of the universe.  Yes, I definitely do.

I personally do not experience the great mystery, divinity or what some call God as a single entity but rather an unexplainable creative conscious force/energy emanating through all things at all levels.  For instance every tree, bug, animal and even rocks, water, fire and air are alive with the energy of both physical reality and the source or divinity.  While at one level one can look at our earth and universe as a series of evolutions in a variety of organisms, which I agree has happened through out this universe, science ignores the reality of what animates this world and universe beyond what it can measure.   In the case of humanity and other living beings.  Science restricts "all that is" to a "physical form and consciousness" that ends with death.  It tells us on one hand that all of our universe is made of energy and as such energy cannot be destroyed it can only change form but does not know what form that transformed energy may take.  The difference between science and what is understood by those advanced in spirit is that conscious energy is not bound by the physical form.  Conscious energy is aligned with what some call the soul or spirit which is part and parcel of all that is in this universe and beyond it, the creative force that gives meaning to this existence both during life and after death.  Conscious energy as expressed through a human being and the organ we call the brain becomes what humanity creates on earth.  For instance, you and others are currently reading these words on some sort of technical device.  That device is made up of elements found in this physical universe.  The device first existed in the mind of a human.  That human then harnessed these physical elements to create the device of their imagination.  I think those who believe in a "Creator" and those who only believe in science can agree to that much.  What science fails to take into account is that the creative consciousness of humanity impacts what humanity creates on earth be it harmony, disharmony, hatred, love or all the other experiences that are human. The mystery that is higher consciousness expresses higher thought through the physical in order to make it manifest in this reality.  The great mystery is all things, even science. 

Every person must frame their own beliefs in a way that makes sense to them.  Where I depart from organized religion in a big way is the penchant of these institutions to claim that they have all the answers when it comes to understanding divinity or God.  Many hold that in order to "redeem" oneself as a human and soul, you must agree with what they propose to be fact and then holds them hostage to that belief with the fear of eternal damnation.  This egregious attempt to pull individuals into a specific belief by telling them that if they don't follow the specific teaching or a specific religion they will go to "hell", a place of the most horrible tortures imaginable is simply reprehensible.  People are coerced into a specific belief because they fear this horrible outcome, this hell, when their physical life is ended.  Using fear to manipulate people along with the doings of an entity called Satan is in many ways unforgivable in my view, but excused by those using it as a method by which to pull sinners, doers of bad deeds into line simply put to change those behaviors.  My position is that if there is beauty, enlightenment and truth to what a religion has to offer people will flock to it without the need for frightening levers to cause them to do so.

Our existence is one of many facets, experiences and beliefs that will never be quantified but experiences none the less that our human nature struggles to understand, to put into some sort of order that makes sense.  For some that is science for others that is a "God", for me it is the great mystery which vibrates throughout creation and beyond, that is all things and finds it's greatest balance in love, which cannot be measured by science but exists none the less.

Certainly there is much more to discuss with regard to beliefs and we have clearly diverged from the original topic of this thread beyond to say that there is concern when it comes to how certain religious organizations, in this case FCB impact the politics and actions of our local government.  In reality the concern in my view is much bigger and speaks I do believe to some of your concerns which is how religious beliefs impact our society as a whole.  At some point we need to address what you refer to as "fairy tales" as the term really does not accurately reflect all religious expression via parables and the like as well as holy books and documents.

[If_I_Loved_you]

Thank you Ron for the civil discourse.  I do understand the things about organized religion that bother you and others. More importantly perhaps, I realize that for some the understandings of science make sense to them with regard to this universe. I do not stand in judgement of that belief.  For me personally, science falls short in explaining the "Great Mystery" of life which of course includes what happens to us when our physical body ceases to exist, as well as the goings on in other dimensions and alternate worlds which science affirms exist. 

For you and others the cessation of physical life spells the end of the entire human entity as there is no belief in spirit and soul, largely because science has no measure for it. That takes us to faith which does not equal folly or frivolity.  Faith is an inner knowing.  You have faith in science, others have faith in God.  For myself, the fact that science cannot yet measure divinity or the spiritual realm is a shortcoming of science at this stage in history and does not equal proof positive that the soul and spirit do not exist.    Science simply does not know how to measure "all that is" and it is folly to think that it can, especially when one considers that all science as expressed here on earth must first be processed through the mechanism of the human brain and ego.  Do I believe that there is an old man with a long white beard sitting on a cloud somewhere named "God"?  Honestly, no.  Do I look down on those who think this true?  Absolutely not.  Do I believe in the spirit, soul and creative consciousness as expressed through the human being as an extension of the universe.  Yes, I definitely do.

I personally do not experience the great mystery, divinity" or what some call God as a single entity but rather an unexplainable creative conscious force/energy emanating through all things at all levels.  For instance every tree, bug, animal and even rocks, water, fire and air are alive with the energy of both physical reality and the source or divinity.  While at one level one can look at our earth and universe as a series of evolutions in a variety of organisms, which I agree has happened through out this universe, science ignores the reality of what animates this world and universe beyond what it can measure.   In the case of humanity and other living beings.  Science restricts "all that is" to a "physical form and consciousness" that ends with death.  It tells us on one hand that all of our universe is made of energy and as such energy cannot be destroyed it can only change form.  The difference between science and what is understood by those advanced is spirit is that conscious energy is not bound by the physical form.  Conscious energy is aligned with what some call the soul or spirit which is part and parcel of all that is in this universe and beyond it, the creative force that gives meaning to this existence both during life and after death.  Conscious energy as expressed through a human being and the organ we call the brain becomes what humanity creates on earth.  For instance, you and others are currently reading these words on some sort of technical device.  That device is made up of elements found in this physical universe.  The device first existed in the mind of a human.  That human then harnessed these physical elements to create the device of their imagination.  I think those who believe in a "Creator" and those who only believe in science can agree to that much.  What science fails to take into account is that the creative consciousness of humanity which impacts what humanity creates on earth be it harmony, disharmony, hatred, love or all the other experiences that are human being expressed through the physical and made manifest.  The great mystery is all things, even science. 

Every person must frame their own beliefs in a way that makes sense to them.  Where I depart from organized religion in a big way is the penchant of these institutions to claim that they have all the answers when it comes to understanding divinity or God.  Many hold that in order to "redeem" oneself as a human and soul, you must agree with what they propose to be fact and then holds them hostage to that belief with the fear of eternal damnation.  This egregious attempt to pull individuals into a specific belief by telling them that if they don't follow the specific teaching or a specific religion they will go to "hell", a place of the most horrible tortures imaginable is simply reprehensible.  People are coerced into a specific belief because they fear this horrible outcome, this hell, when their physical life is ended.  Using fear to manipulate people along with the doings of an entity called Satan is in many ways unforgivable in my view, but excused by those using it as a method by which to pull sinners, doers of bad deeds into line simply put to change those behaviors.  My position is that if there is beauty, enlightenment and truth to what a religion has to offer people will flock to it without the need for frightening levers to cause them to do so.

Our existence is one of many facets, experiences and beliefs that will never be quantified but experiences none the less that our human nature struggles to understand, to put into some sort of order that makes sense.  For some that is science for others that is a "God", for me it is the great mystery which vibrates throughout creation and beyond, that is all things and finds it's greatest balance in love, which cannot be measured by science but exists non the less.

Certainly there is much more to discuss with regard to beliefs and we have clearly diverged from the original topic of this thread beyond to say that there is concern when it comes to how certain religious organizations, in this case FCB impact the politics and actions of our local government.  When in reality the concern in my view is much bigger and speaks I do believe to some of your concerns which is how religious beliefs impact or society as a whole.  At some point we need to address what you refer to as "fairy tales" as the term really does not accurately reflect all religious expression via parables and the like.

Here is a quote from another atheist “I said I didn't respect religion . . . and anyone who believes in fairy tales to answer questions that we can't answer. . . . So I don't respect our religions either. But I do believe it is a clash of civilizations, absolutely, between the Islamic world and the Western world. [It] has been going on for 1,000 years.”

Bill Maher quote

[Cheshire Cat]

^ Not sure I understand what you are trying to say with this quote.

[If_I_Loved_you]

^ Not sure I understand what you are trying to say with this quote.

Atheist feel that believing in God and religion is nothing but a Fairy Tale.

[Cheshire Cat]

^ Perhaps some do and some may not.  In any case it is the right of everyone to decide for themselves the parameters of their beliefs and that's as it should be. 

[If_I_Loved_you]

^ Perhaps some do and some may not.  In any case it is the right of everyone to decide for themselves the parameters of their beliefs and that's as it should be. 

True