Khan: Downtown's Laura Street Trio redevelopment deal 'alive but on life support

[PeeJayEss]

First, the crowd at Black Sheep is not a purely (not even majority) Riverside-Avondale crowd, and its certainly not a 5Points crowd. It is definitely a citywide draw. It is a better iteration of Chew (aesthetic, drinks, etc) with a unique Jax amenity (rooftop bar). Yes, the Riverside location is better than a downtown location, but the place would still be thriving in downtown, it would just be in a less interesting, less active area. It would be a self-contained dining experience.

I think we need to know what the other distinctions beside "thriving" are. Actually, I can't seem to recall the purpose of pointing out 5 restaurants downtown that meet this distinction, and I certainly don't understand how many restaurants of such a caliber are supposed to be located in an area the size of Riverside-Avondale.

So perhaps this new venture will fill the void nicely pointed out by Simms, "DT doesn't yet have a cool restaurant."
One where folks stand in line to get in. THAT I would look forward to.

Again, I must reiterate: Chomp Chomp. Or please clarify your definition of cool. If "cool" is defined by a 300+ seat restaurant with Bobby Flay's name on it, then to quote Inigo Montoya:
"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

Back to the topic at hand, I just drove down Laura at lunch, and having something, anything in that Barnett Bank tower will seriously be a big deal, I think even more so than the Trio. It's a big dead space on a block that is otherwise seeing some decent (relatively) traffic lately. I don't understand the higher education thing, but I can't wait to hear more details.

simms: When you say the Barnett is too small for mixed-use, what do you mean? You mean too small for something like the Bank Hotel concept (hotel and apartments) or some kind of office/residence space? Or too small for ground floor retail with anything above it?

[tufsu1]

Exactly.  I agree that Brooklyn could explode, but we have never seen anything explode in Jax...

I don't know...the JTB/Southside and STJC areas kind of exploded

[PeeJayEss]

Exactly.  I agree that Brooklyn could explode, but we have never seen anything explode in Jax...

I don't know...the JTB/Southside and STJC areas kind of exploded

T2 Laboratories? Too soon?

[downtownjag]

Plus a lot of users will commit to a guaranteed takedown but won't take all the space upfront which is where there are computing problems.

Just saw this...we deal with this in sophsticated markets, too (NYC and SF).  I'm working on a 220,000 SF lease as we speak where the prospect thinks it's doing us, the landlord, a favor and wants all this flexibility in return...sorry folks it doesn't work that way!  We *are* willing to work with you to improve the building to woo you in (i.e. if you want barricades for elevator lobbies, we'll install them...if you need an expanded restroom core because you pack'em in there, we'll even shoulder that freakin expensive cost), but we want a straightforward commitment in return.

Since you and I seem to be the rare poster that actually works in RE, what are your thoughts for the Barnett component, and for Trio?  You're obviously much closer to the Jacksonville market than I could ever hope to be.

^^ LOL, seems reasonable to me though!?!?!

I'm personally convinced the project is the lynchpin to residential development downtown. I liked the original plans that were basically 100% residential. I've heard hotel/resi mix as well for just Barnett and higher education would be great but who pays for the students parking? If a $40K per year employee doesn't want to shell out $90 per month why would a student? I understand it can all be worked into the deal its just a concern. Plus educational will be what, a 10 year lease? At least residential rentals you don't worry as much about the LED.

Idk I don't have all the answers on this one either but I do like your plan.

[downtownjag]

Exactly.  I agree that Brooklyn could explode, but we have never seen anything explode in Jax...

I don't know...the JTB/Southside and STJC areas kind of exploded

T2 Laboratories? Too soon?

LOL

[Fallen Buckeye]

This is pure speculation, but I wonder whether  UNF is the higher ed partner they are talking about with the Barnett building. Doesn't UNF already have a relationship with MOCA down the street? I could picture them having a satellite campus focused on art. I know they've got a ton of space on there main campus, but if they are already doing classes at MOCA this could be a logical step.

[thelakelander]

^Nope, it's not UNF.

[coredumped]

This is pure speculation, but I wonder whether  UNF is the higher ed partner they are talking about with the Barnett building. Doesn't UNF already have a relationship with MOCA down the street? I could picture them having a satellite campus focused on art. I know they've got a ton of space on there main campus, but if they are already doing classes at MOCA this could be a logical step.

I can tell you it's not UNF (I don't know who it is, but I know for a fact not UNF). To answer your question, yes, UNF has classes at MOCA.

Khan academy?

[Kiva]

^Nope, it's not UNF.

So if you know it is not UNF do you have any clues as to who it is?

[thelakelander]

I was told a while back by a member of the development team that it was an entity with no Jax presence. I don't know who it is but that pretty much excludes everything locally.

[Tacachale]

Yeah it's certainly not UNF. The news reports just said it was an "as yet unnamed" school. Presumably it's just another for profit, which is a call for ambivalence, to say the least.

[comncense]

I thought there was talks that it was Florida Coastal and wanting to locate students downtown close to law firms.

[downtownjag]

How amazing would some sort of SCAD branch location or otherwise architectural school be? Thats not even speculation just wishing.

[edjax]

I really like the idea of a SCAD satellite location!!  I keep hearing pepole saying another for profit school. That does not really make sense to me as why would there really be a need for housing??? Seems most who attend for profits are already in the working arena or trying to get an education quicker and on a budget. So more likely to live at home and no real need for housing.

[simms3]

Exactly.  I agree that Brooklyn could explode, but we have never seen anything explode in Jax...

I don't know...the JTB/Southside and STJC areas kind of exploded

True, but in all fairness/honesty, even the SS pales in comparison to the explosion that has occurred in Franklin/Cool Springs, TN or Ballantyne submarket of Charlotte.  It's all relative I guess.  Even Germantown outside of Memphis exploded at a higher level and more rapidly than SJTC/JTB, arguably.  Or Shelby County in Birmingham metro.  Jax has grown quickly overall, spread out over large area; I don't think it's seen the transformative explosion of any one particular area as other similar sunbelt cities have seen...TBD whether or not Brooklyn will be that first sort of area.

simms: When you say the Barnett is too small for mixed-use, what do you mean? You mean too small for something like the Bank Hotel concept (hotel and apartments) or some kind of office/residence space? Or too small for ground floor retail with anything above it?

Ground floor retail with use above it is not "mixed use", it is standard (or should be).  I'm saying that due to the size of Barnett (16-17 usable floors, ~10,000 ft plates) and limited elevator core, it would be difficult splitting the building into two uses based on economies of scale.  Once you factor building load (surely a high load in an inefficient floorplate layout such as that in Barnett), you're looking at probably 8,000 usable SF max per floor.  At most you're fitting in 200 rentals in the whole building (estimating avg 700 SF units, which is common for urban, but likely aggressively small for Jax), or under 150,000 SF class B office (the price to get this building to class B would be like converting a 1950s class B into bottom barrel class A...very expensive...you're not doing class A in this).  It'd be difficult to split these possibilities.  You have no underwriting on the bottom 1-2 floors (you can't underwrite retail in DT Jax right now, and if it's not retail, it's lobby/common space).

I think Barnett is difficult without a single use tenant who can lease the entire building for 10+ years and back an LOC or guaranty for unamortized buildout costs, etc (i.e. a for-profit college, etc).

Again, I must reiterate: Chomp Chomp. Or please clarify your definition of cool. If "cool" is defined by a 300+ seat restaurant with Bobby Flay's name on it, then to quote Inigo Montoya:
"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

I agree.  Bobby Flay has a restaurant (that is good) about 2 blocks from where I live now, but he's so commercialized.  Cool is local, homegrown chef who is trendsetter rather than follower.  Cool is the space...it's getting harder and harder to differentiate now, but it's still possible.  In all bluntness, Black Sheep is a replica of at least 50 restaurants in Atlanta at this point, but it's "cool" in Jax because they did have a deep enough capital budget for locally produced interior design, a rooftop bar, a well crafted menu that pays homage to the area, etc.  It really wouldn't be that difficult to be "cool" in Jacksonville as there really aren't very many options for anything and most of what's been done in other cities hasn't arrived in Jax yet.  There's no "scene" yet in Jax...I'm talking hardcore foodies and individuality.  The extent of what's been successful and unique to the market is highlighted in full on this web forum.