Repeat Offender Arrested in shooting of Five Men on the Westside

[Cheshire Cat]

A criminal with a very long record, who has been arrested three times since his last release from jail was arrested in the shooting of five men on the Westside outside of a convenience store right here in Jacksonville.   While there is long standing discussions going on about gun control and who should carry guns etc., the other side of the equation is the illegal guns that find their way into the hands of hardened criminals.  The tragedy of today in Conn. has brought the issue up again, perhaps this venue and this particular crime can be a stepping off point for further discussion about gun's, gun control and the rights to own them. 

http://jacksonville.com/news/crime/2012-12-14/story/22-year-old-felon-arrested-jacksonville-drive-shooting-5

[tufsu1]

there are definitely parallels between the shooting in Newtown, CT and the shotting in the New Town neighborhood of Jax.

[carpnter]

Arrested twice since May and all they got was 30 days in jail for the resisting arrest charge?  Nothing on the weapon charge?  I don't want to hear jack about needing more gun control when they cannot manage to lock up someone who is in possession of a weapon illegally. 
Was that weapon charge not high profile enough for the State Attorney so they just didn't bother prosecuting it?

[acme54321]

Agreed, firm enforcement would go a long way towards reducing these circumstances.  There are already laws on the books that bar felons and people with mental health issues from purchasing firearms.  Unfortunately criminals like this guy on the westside will get their hands on a firearm, banned or not.  What it comes down to is deciding at what point taking away rights from law abiding citizens is worth the presumed decrease in the crimes. 

[carpnter]

Agreed, firm enforcement would go a long way towards reducing these circumstances.  There are already laws on the books that bar felons and people with mental health issues from purchasing firearms.  Unfortunately criminals like this guy on the westside will get their hands on a firearm, banned or not.  What it comes down to is deciding at what point taking away rights from law abiding citizens is worth the presumed decrease in the crimes.

I dunno acme.

Where in the United States is 'firm enforcement' working?

Stephen, I think we'd need to see this firm enforcement actually taking place first. 

[acme54321]

It's not, that's my point.  The enforcement is weak.  Especially when it comes to people with mental issues.  I see two main problems.

  First, lots of people go undiagnosed and untreated.  Most of these peole show signs long before they act. Parents are confused or scared of their children when they show signs of violence and don't know where to turn.  Who wants to admit that their child is a psychopath?

  Secondly, even if diagnosed there is nothing to stop them from buying a gun.  The only thing on the ATF form 4473 that mentions mental illness is basically "have you been diagnosed with a mental illness? Y/n".  That's it.  Of course lying on that form is a 5 year felony or something similar, but dies someone with these motives really care?


I feel that there has to be a better way to solve this problem than removing rights from the rest of us.   Thousands die in DUI accidents each year, but we don't ban all sales of alcohol to solve the problem. 

[If_I_Loved_you]

http://tv.msnbc.com/2012/12/17/nra-endorsed-sen-joe-manchin-calls-for-assault-weapons-ban/

[Gators312]

It's not, that's my point.  The enforcement is weak.  Especially when it comes to people with mental issues.  I see two main problems.

  First, lots of people go undiagnosed and untreated.  Most of these peole show signs long before they act. Parents are confused or scared of their children when they show signs of violence and don't know where to turn.  Who wants to admit that their child is a psychopath?

  Secondly, even if diagnosed there is nothing to stop them from buying a gun.  The only thing on the ATF form 4473 that mentions mental illness is basically "have you been diagnosed with a mental illness? Y/n".  That's it.  Of course lying on that form is a 5 year felony or something similar, but dies someone with these motives really care?


I feel that there has to be a better way to solve this problem than removing rights from the rest of us.   Thousands die in DUI accidents each year, but we don't ban all sales of alcohol to solve the problem.

I just don't see why we all have to restructure our entire lives, turn our schools into fortresses, create security checkpoints and submit ourselves to body searches and patdowns just so a few people can possess guns that can shoot five people to death per second.

Thats not the right that the second amendment was designed to protect, and pretending that it does forces everyone else to give up other rights (like the right not to be searched, for example) and far too often the greatest right of all---the right not to be killed by a gunman with hundreds of bullets.

With almost a million card carrying gun owners in Florida alone, not to mention all of those who choose not to register for CWP, how do you suggest recalling the weapons that are considered "assault" weapons?

I think all it will do is create a black market for these weapons only increasing their price, not necessarily one's ability to procure them.   Just like the war on drugs, I feel a war on guns would be as fruitless.

I'm not saying that there isn't anything that can be done, I just think it will take a very complex solution.

[If_I_Loved_you]

It's not, that's my point.  The enforcement is weak.  Especially when it comes to people with mental issues.  I see two main problems.

  First, lots of people go undiagnosed and untreated.  Most of these peole show signs long before they act. Parents are confused or scared of their children when they show signs of violence and don't know where to turn.  Who wants to admit that their child is a psychopath?

  Secondly, even if diagnosed there is nothing to stop them from buying a gun.  The only thing on the ATF form 4473 that mentions mental illness is basically "have you been diagnosed with a mental illness? Y/n".  That's it.  Of course lying on that form is a 5 year felony or something similar, but dies someone with these motives really care?


I feel that there has to be a better way to solve this problem than removing rights from the rest of us.   Thousands die in DUI accidents each year, but we don't ban all sales of alcohol to solve the problem.

I just don't see why we all have to restructure our entire lives, turn our schools into fortresses, create security checkpoints and submit ourselves to body searches and patdowns just so a few people can possess guns that can shoot five people to death per second.

Thats not the right that the second amendment was designed to protect, and pretending that it does forces everyone else to give up other rights (like the right not to be searched, for example) and far too often the greatest right of all---the right not to be killed by a gunman with hundreds of bullets.

With almost a million card carrying gun owners in Florida alone, not to mention all of those who choose not to register for CWP, how do you suggest recalling the weapons that are considered "assault" weapons?

I think all it will do is create a black market for these weapons only increasing their price, not necessarily one's ability to procure them.   Just like the war on drugs, I feel a war on guns would be as fruitless.

I'm not saying that there isn't anything that can be done, I just think it will take a very complex solution.

A war on Guns is wrong but we still need to talk about which Guns should be legal to own. The assault rifle isn't for killing wild game it's for killing HUMANS and it's not needed nor are the larger gun clips.

[Gators312]

It's not, that's my point.  The enforcement is weak.  Especially when it comes to people with mental issues.  I see two main problems.

  First, lots of people go undiagnosed and untreated.  Most of these peole show signs long before they act. Parents are confused or scared of their children when they show signs of violence and don't know where to turn.  Who wants to admit that their child is a psychopath?

  Secondly, even if diagnosed there is nothing to stop them from buying a gun.  The only thing on the ATF form 4473 that mentions mental illness is basically "have you been diagnosed with a mental illness? Y/n".  That's it.  Of course lying on that form is a 5 year felony or something similar, but dies someone with these motives really care?


I feel that there has to be a better way to solve this problem than removing rights from the rest of us.   Thousands die in DUI accidents each year, but we don't ban all sales of alcohol to solve the problem.

I just don't see why we all have to restructure our entire lives, turn our schools into fortresses, create security checkpoints and submit ourselves to body searches and patdowns just so a few people can possess guns that can shoot five people to death per second.

Thats not the right that the second amendment was designed to protect, and pretending that it does forces everyone else to give up other rights (like the right not to be searched, for example) and far too often the greatest right of all---the right not to be killed by a gunman with hundreds of bullets.

With almost a million card carrying gun owners in Florida alone, not to mention all of those who choose not to register for CWP, how do you suggest recalling the weapons that are considered "assault" weapons?

I think all it will do is create a black market for these weapons only increasing their price, not necessarily one's ability to procure them.   Just like the war on drugs, I feel a war on guns would be as fruitless.

I'm not saying that there isn't anything that can be done, I just think it will take a very complex solution.

I think a little liability action against the makers of these assault weapons will hasten their buyback, personally.

And we can stop making and proliferating them.

The nature of machines is that most of them break or wear down.  They don't last forever.

Perhaps every home should be issued a standard defense rifle, Swiss Style, but these easily hidden handguns that can shoot five times per second with exploding bullets?......

What were we thinking?

So companies in India, China, Mexico or wherever else won't produce these weapons for the black market?

I don't condone what these weapons are capable of, I just don't think you get the cat back in the bag at this point.

[acme54321]

Exploding bullets?  What are you talking about?

[If_I_Loved_you]

The Bushmaster .223-caliber Assault Rifle killed the TWENTY CHILDREN AND SIX ADULTS at Sandy Hook elementary school. Why does a man or woman need to have this gun as a Legal and reasonable gun owner?

[Gators312]

It's not, that's my point.  The enforcement is weak.  Especially when it comes to people with mental issues.  I see two main problems.

  First, lots of people go undiagnosed and untreated.  Most of these peole show signs long before they act. Parents are confused or scared of their children when they show signs of violence and don't know where to turn.  Who wants to admit that their child is a psychopath?

  Secondly, even if diagnosed there is nothing to stop them from buying a gun.  The only thing on the ATF form 4473 that mentions mental illness is basically "have you been diagnosed with a mental illness? Y/n".  That's it.  Of course lying on that form is a 5 year felony or something similar, but dies someone with these motives really care?


I feel that there has to be a better way to solve this problem than removing rights from the rest of us.   Thousands die in DUI accidents each year, but we don't ban all sales of alcohol to solve the problem.

I just don't see why we all have to restructure our entire lives, turn our schools into fortresses, create security checkpoints and submit ourselves to body searches and patdowns just so a few people can possess guns that can shoot five people to death per second.

Thats not the right that the second amendment was designed to protect, and pretending that it does forces everyone else to give up other rights (like the right not to be searched, for example) and far too often the greatest right of all---the right not to be killed by a gunman with hundreds of bullets.

With almost a million card carrying gun owners in Florida alone, not to mention all of those who choose not to register for CWP, how do you suggest recalling the weapons that are considered "assault" weapons?

I think all it will do is create a black market for these weapons only increasing their price, not necessarily one's ability to procure them.   Just like the war on drugs, I feel a war on guns would be as fruitless.

I'm not saying that there isn't anything that can be done, I just think it will take a very complex solution.

I think a little liability action against the makers of these assault weapons will hasten their buyback, personally.

And we can stop making and proliferating them.

The nature of machines is that most of them break or wear down.  They don't last forever.

Perhaps every home should be issued a standard defense rifle, Swiss Style, but these easily hidden handguns that can shoot five times per second with exploding bullets?......

What were we thinking?

So companies in India, China, Mexico or wherever else won't produce these weapons for the black market?

I don't condone what these weapons are capable of, I just don't think you get the cat back in the bag at this point.

not a very compelling argument, gators.

its hard, so we might as well forget about it?

Did I say forget about it?  I said it will take a complex solution much more than a simple ban. 

Do you really think a ban won't drive a black market for these weapons?

Yep Stephen, just ban them and sue the manufacturers and "poof" problem solved....

Trying to solve one problem many times creates a larger unintended one, so I think a broad look at this problem is necessary. 

[carpnter]

It's not, that's my point.  The enforcement is weak.  Especially when it comes to people with mental issues.  I see two main problems.

  First, lots of people go undiagnosed and untreated.  Most of these peole show signs long before they act. Parents are confused or scared of their children when they show signs of violence and don't know where to turn.  Who wants to admit that their child is a psychopath?

  Secondly, even if diagnosed there is nothing to stop them from buying a gun.  The only thing on the ATF form 4473 that mentions mental illness is basically "have you been diagnosed with a mental illness? Y/n".  That's it.  Of course lying on that form is a 5 year felony or something similar, but dies someone with these motives really care?


I feel that there has to be a better way to solve this problem than removing rights from the rest of us.   Thousands die in DUI accidents each year, but we don't ban all sales of alcohol to solve the problem.

I just don't see why we all have to restructure our entire lives, turn our schools into fortresses, create security checkpoints and submit ourselves to body searches and patdowns just so a few people can possess guns that can shoot five people to death per second.

Thats not the right that the second amendment was designed to protect, and pretending that it does forces everyone else to give up other rights (like the right not to be searched, for example) and far too often the greatest right of all---the right not to be killed by a gunman with hundreds of bullets.

With almost a million card carrying gun owners in Florida alone, not to mention all of those who choose not to register for CWP, how do you suggest recalling the weapons that are considered "assault" weapons?

I think all it will do is create a black market for these weapons only increasing their price, not necessarily one's ability to procure them.   Just like the war on drugs, I feel a war on guns would be as fruitless.

I'm not saying that there isn't anything that can be done, I just think it will take a very complex solution.

I think a little liability action against the makers of these assault weapons will hasten their buyback, personally.

And we can stop making and proliferating them.

The nature of machines is that most of them break or wear down.  They don't last forever.

Perhaps every home should be issued a standard defense rifle, Swiss Style, but these easily hidden handguns that can shoot five times per second with exploding bullets?......

What were we thinking?

Fully automatic weapons are already heavily regulated, you must possess a Class III FFL  to purchase one. 
A handgun can only shoot as fast as you can pull the trigger and pulling the trigger 5 times a second is very fast and you could only really do that when shooting at a single target.   A hollow point bullet is not the same as an exploding bullet and exploding ammunition is also heavily regulated (it is banned in Florida).  Hollow points are very effective personal defense rounds. 

[avonjax]

It's not, that's my point.  The enforcement is weak.  Especially when it comes to people with mental issues.  I see two main problems.

  First, lots of people go undiagnosed and untreated.  Most of these peole show signs long before they act. Parents are confused or scared of their children when they show signs of violence and don't know where to turn.  Who wants to admit that their child is a psychopath?

  Secondly, even if diagnosed there is nothing to stop them from buying a gun.  The only thing on the ATF form 4473 that mentions mental illness is basically "have you been diagnosed with a mental illness? Y/n".  That's it.  Of course lying on that form is a 5 year felony or something similar, but dies someone with these motives really care?


I feel that there has to be a better way to solve this problem than removing rights from the rest of us.   Thousands die in DUI accidents each year, but we don't ban all sales of alcohol to solve the problem.

I just don't see why we all have to restructure our entire lives, turn our schools into fortresses, create security checkpoints and submit ourselves to body searches and patdowns just so a few people can possess guns that can shoot five people to death per second.

Thats not the right that the second amendment was designed to protect, and pretending that it does forces everyone else to give up other rights (like the right not to be searched, for example) and far too often the greatest right of all---the right not to be killed by a gunman with hundreds of bullets.

You are so right Stephen.
The 2nd Amendment was written in very different times. If the founding fathers had any idea how advanced guns would evolve and how violent our society would eventually become they just may have reworded it
My problem with gun lovers is how they want to extend the right to everyone, without a record, to possess whatever gun they chose. I say let everyone have a gun like the ones that existed in the days the 2nd was written. Anything else would be illegal.
It's funny that every time something like this happens gun advocates start becoming defensive and frighten the citizens with the idea that the government is about to take all their guns.
My facebook friends, I loosely call some of them that, have been posting all this nonsense about how Obama has a secret bill that is about to take guns away from law abiding citizens.
They are making crackpot statements like "He'll never take my guns."
Sensible gun control should not be about politics but it is.