More Passenger Rail?

[acme54321]

JACKSONVILLE[/center]

It would be great to see FEC passenger trains back in Jax with the classic red and yellow livery.

[Ocklawaha]

^ the I-4 master plan was always set up for 6 regular use lanes, 4 special use lanes, and rail...so there is room for both express lanes (yes, they are Lexus Lanes and you can count on them getting built) and AAF

http://www.youtube.com/v/rYuev933Qvc?version=3&hl=en_US

Unless there is a box car load of $1,000 dollar bills ready to be handed over to AAF, there won't be any entirely new railroad track laid down where track already runs.  It would be MUCH cheaper for AAF to make a joint track, wheel charge, trackage right or similar deal with CSX to carry their trains along with the needed improvements.

Two similar obstacles exist in Southern California where far more traffic moves over the rails into LA and the San Joaquin Valley. At Cajon Pass, Union Pacific reaches across the continent to Daggett, CA. and hence from Daggett to Cajon summit over the tracks of the Burlington Northern Santa Fe. Meanwhile the Burlington Northern Santa Fe reaches from Daggett through the Barstow junction to Mojave where it shares track between Mojave and Bakersfield with Union Pacific.

In the case of Florida there hasn't been a connection between Central Florida and the Florida East Coast mainline since the FEC pulled up it's old Titusville - Mims - Maytown - Osteen - Enterprise - Benson Junction - Sanford branchline in the early 1970's. The closest we ever got to an Orlando connection was the old Chuluota - Bithlo - Holopaw portion of the Okeechobee Sub-Division of the Florida East Coast, which got to within a 1/4 mile of the old Seaboard Air Line 'Lake Charm' (OVIEDO) branchline. Unfortunately the FEC route was abandoned around 1949, and no physical connection was ever made. There is however, a connection between Orlando and Tampa, in place and operable.

There is also an easy way to 'cure' the Lakeland traffic problem, the Coleman Cut-Off, which ran between Coleman - Center Hill - Auburndale. Another CSX mainline branches off of the Lakeland Route at Richland, and travels south through Plant City entering Tampa or swinging south of Plant City and Lakeland there are myriad tracks, abandoned tracks and right-of-ways that could dodge Lakeland with very little effort and a whole lot less cash then a building a class 7 mainline down I-4.

I'm cheering for Scott to pave that track space with your Lexus Lanes, after all, the Grand Old Party has to find ways to block those budget destroying railroads!   

[thelakelander]

The Coleman Cut-Off is 53 miles of pulled up track.  A chunk of that has a multi-use trail running down the center of it.  Cost wise, I find it hard to believe that it would be cheaper to lay 53 miles of new track, replace the 29 mile General Van Fleet Trail, and upgrade over 70 miles of CSX track, than simply building 80 miles of new track.  Since FEC is in the business of making money, I'd suspect the State would have to pony up big bucks for anything involving rebuilding the abandoned rail corridor through the Green Swamp.

[spuwho]

Since AAF has no plans to use the Orlando Utilities ROW to get to MCO, I am kind of curious how they would get from the MCO intermodal hub to the I-4 freeway let alone into Tampa if and when the cash rolls in.

Dallas had to get DART to go every which way but loose to circumvent neighborhoods, office parks and existing highways to get the DFW extension in place. No retired ROW's to use.

BTW: AAF is currently talking with the Mormon Church which owns an extensive ranch east of MCO along the Beachline. I guess they have to pick up a few parcels to get the alignment into MCO right.

[thelakelander]

My guess is if AAF is successful with this initial route, they'd expand north to Jax before Tampa since the track is already owned and in place.

[tufsu1]

Since AAF has no plans to use the Orlando Utilities ROW to get to MCO, I am kind of curious how they would get from the MCO intermodal hub to the I-4 freeway let alone into Tampa if and when the cash rolls in.

the same way high speed rail was going to....the Greeneway (SR 417)

[Ocklawaha]

The Coleman Cut-Off is 53 miles of pulled up track.  A chunk of that has a multi-use trail running down the center of it.  Cost wise, I find it hard to believe that it would be cheaper to lay 53 miles of new track, replace the 29 mile General Van Fleet Trail, and upgrade over 70 miles of CSX track, than simply building 80 miles of new track.  Since FEC is in the business of making money, I'd suspect the State would have to pony up big bucks for anything involving rebuilding the abandoned rail corridor through the Green Swamp.

I was Just not thinking about the current plans, but given the current FECI plan, freights COULD BE routed over the FEC between Jacksonville and Winter Haven using the new Cocoa - Orlando line. This would certainly avoid all objections from Lakeland.

Where was it published that FECI would not use the OUC corridor to reach the south side of the airport? I understand they have a beef with the Beachline folks over Cocoa Beach becoming a stop.  Looks like the highway boys are afraid of the rail project 'stealing' their toll business. (NOTE TO SELVES: Why is JTA trying to be a highway agency and a transit operator?) Seems to me like a simple solution for Cocoa Beach would be to add a surcharge to the ticket price equal to the toll revenue. Problem solved, Cocoa Beach gets it's station and the Beachline keeps it's revenue stream.

If FECI decided to avoid the Beachline it could map a shorter route southward by cutting a diagonal route across the Mormon Ranch coming into the current FEC mainline around Palm Bay/Melbourne.

[thelakelander]

The Coleman Cut-Off is 53 miles of pulled up track.  A chunk of that has a multi-use trail running down the center of it.  Cost wise, I find it hard to believe that it would be cheaper to lay 53 miles of new track, replace the 29 mile General Van Fleet Trail, and upgrade over 70 miles of CSX track, than simply building 80 miles of new track.  Since FEC is in the business of making money, I'd suspect the State would have to pony up big bucks for anything involving rebuilding the abandoned rail corridor through the Green Swamp.

I was Just not thinking about the current plans, but given the current FECI plan, freights COULD BE routed over the FEC between Jacksonville and Winter Haven using the new Cocoa - Orlando line. This would certainly avoid all objections from Lakeland.

Why would CSX want their freight relocated to the FEC corridor?  The Lakeland issue (if its really an issue worth spending money on) could be resolved by FDOT or City of Lakeland building an overpass or two.  However, I doubt FDOT would want to spend more money on overpasses for downtown Lakeland when they already recently constructed two of the three existing grade separated crossings as a part of the Intown Bypass project (SR 548).  With this in mind, I don't see CSX, FEC, or the State making it a priority to spend significant dollars because Lakeland doesn't want freight rail running on century old tracks through downtown.

Where was it published that FECI would not use the OUC corridor to reach the south side of the airport? I understand they have a beef with the Beachline folks over Cocoa Beach becoming a stop.  Looks like the highway boys are afraid of the rail project 'stealing' their toll business. (NOTE TO SELVES: Why is JTA trying to be a highway agency and a transit operator?) Seems to me like a simple solution for Cocoa Beach would be to add a surcharge to the ticket price equal to the toll revenue. Problem solved, Cocoa Beach gets it's station and the Beachline keeps it's revenue stream.

My reply was in response to discussion on a potential Orlando/Tampa link.  From what I understand, I don't believe FEC will have any problem getting ROW between Orlando and Cocoa for the initial segment.

If FECI decided to avoid the Beachline it could map a shorter route southward by cutting a diagonal route across the Mormon Ranch coming into the current FEC mainline around Palm Bay/Melbourne.

It seems like they are making progress on securing the ROW necessary to reach Orlando's airport.  I'd be surprised if there is a major hiccup in utilizing ROW in or paralleling the Beachline.

[Ocklawaha]

An FEC / CSX 'DEAL' is purely speculation, so I was 'Just Say'in'.  Actually though these sorts of deals are made by railroads all the time, to wit, NS operating an intermodal terminal in Titusville, Florida with run through trains. So I could imagine a virtually zero cost deal where CSX got access to the (much better - faster) FEC main, Jax to Orlando and FEC got access to Tampa. I know you understand this Lake, but some of our readers probably don't.

The following is from the FEC RY webpages, it's a great example of such an arrangement as most of you know, the FEC track doesn't get any closer to Atlanta then the Beaver Street Viaduct.

Atlanta, GA

FEC's Atlanta intermodal terminal is located at the Norfolk Southern's Inman Yard. It features thorough tracking and tracing capabilities so that we know where your unit is 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. Security and protection of your shipment is a high priority at every ramp facility. The Atlanta terminal is located on Marietta Road and is convenient with easy in and out gate areas. FEC dispatches empties for loading and loads ready to be brought to the rail from this facility. There is a full time staff available to meet your every need for drayage and intermodal services.

Location:
1600 Marietta Road, NW - Gate 6
Atlanta, GA 30318

Hours:
24 hours, daily

[thelakelander]

An FEC / CSX 'DEAL' is purely speculation, so I was 'Just Say'in'.

Gotcha.

[tufsu1]

I understand they have a beef with the Beachline folks over Cocoa Beach becoming a stop.  Looks like the highway boys are afraid of the rail project 'stealing' their toll business.

FECI doesn't want a stop in Cocoa Beach...and pretty much everyone else has caved...with the exception of the city of Cocoa.

As for the Lakeland question, FDOT is spending several million dollars on a PD&E study of alternative rail corridors...the study website is

http://www.polkrail.com/

[thelakelander]

The PD&E seems like a waste to me but it will be interesting to see the final recommendations and the parties suggested to pay the expense to implement them.  That CSX line through Lakeland doesn't have as many at-grade crossings as railroads tend to have in cities that size. Make DT Lakeland a quiet zone and provide a few pedestrian bridges over the tracks in DT.  If another overpass is desired, consider squeezing something in on North Florida Avenue...or better yet, diverting through trips to a corridor that already is grade separated.

[Ocklawaha]

I understand they have a beef with the Beachline folks over Cocoa Beach becoming a stop.  Looks like the highway boys are afraid of the rail project 'stealing' their toll business.

FECI doesn't want a stop in Cocoa Beach...and pretty much everyone else has caved...with the exception of the city of Cocoa.

I wouldn't be too concerned if I were in the leadership at Cocoa Beach.  They have a huge passenger generator in the cruise port, and these 'wayside' stops tend to grow on the lines after service is established.  The end result is that they'll likely get the stop eventually.

I would expect that the Cocoa Beach stop may come about when they start looking north to Jacksonville. If they shut out Cocoa Beach, Melbourne, Fort Pierce, it does not bode well for Daytona Beach and St. Augustine. 

With Port Canaveral boarding around 200,000 passengers a month, Daytona has about 7.7 million visitors a year, and St. Augustine has 3.4 million overnight visitors and easily double that many day trip visitors.  It's hard to imagine once things are up and running that they would blow this off.

[tufsu1]

Cocoa is only being shut out because of the concerns raised by OOCEA

[Ocklawaha]

Seems like a easy solution would be to surcharge tickets between Orlando and Cocoa with an amount equal to the toll on the Beachline.

Cocoa Beach gets to reopen it's train station (which is modern and still standing)
Port Canaveral can market itself using the trains
OOCEA still pockets the revenue