City to install 66 Traffic Violation Cameras at City Intersections?

[KenFSU]

http://www.jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/021208/met_246022373.shtml

Opinions?

Study after study has shown that these cameras do absolutely nothing to improve roadway safety, so the decision has to be strictly financial. Is the tradeoff of turning Big Brother's eyes onto Jacksonville's roads worth the 100 extra police officers city officials claim citation penalties will be able to pay for?

[Steve]

Personally, I'm fairly indifferent to them - if they can accomplish the same thing as an officer sitting at an intersection (an officer we can then put in a rough neighborhood or Downtown), then let's do it.

And if the savings were to pay for 100 (I'd be curious if the same guy who did that math predicted Skyway ridership), then I'd definitely be for it.

[Lunican]

Florida DOT Confirms Use of Red Light Cameras Illegal

A Florida Department of Transportation letter confirms that cities using red light cameras to issue tickets are violating the law.

Several Florida jurisdictions, including Escambia County and Hallandale Beach, are considering the installation of red light cameras, even though the state legislature has refused to authorize the devices. Furious lobbying by the insurance and red light camera industries along with local governments interested in sharing in the revenue has put increased pressure on lawmakers to concede. Cities such as Apopka and Gulf Breeze could not resist the temptation to wait and have for the past few months have been issuing automated photo tickets at intersections. The Florida Department of Transportation (FDOT) suggested in a letter last month that this may be illegal.

"The decision to allow or not allow the use of Red Light Running Cameras is determined by the Florida Legislature and Governor Crist," wrote Deputy State Traffic Operations Engineer Mark C. Wilson. "Current Florida Law does not allow the use of Red Light Running Cameras for the enforcement of a traffic violation. The Florida Department of Transportation does not allow the use of Red Light Running Cameras on any of our intersections on the State Highway System. We do know that some Florida cities are using Red Light Running Cameras for enforcement of a violation of a local city ordinance."

Dade City resident Stephen R Donaldson had written to his state representative, Tom Anderson, to suggest that longer yellow signal time was a superior alternative to the use of automated ticketing. Anderson forwarded Donaldson's concerns to FDOT.

"Tickets-by-mail is not law enforcement, it is revenue collecting," Donaldson said.

The Minnesota Supreme Court ruled earlier this year that a jurisdiction which had claimed red light cameras were not actually tickets but violations of a city ordinance had run afoul of a provision, also part of Florida's code, requiring uniformity in traffic laws (view ruling). A full copy of the FDOT letter is available in a 318k PDF file at the source link below.

http://www.thenewspaper.com/news/19/1994.asp

This means that the tickets issued are equivalent to parking tickets instead of traffic violations. The ticket is associated with the car and not the driver. Also, the cameras can not be on FDOT land, so they will either need to be on city land near the road, or a lease with a private land owner will need to be made.

[blizz01]

If the cameras only paid for 10 officers dedicated to the worst areas - I say do it. 

[gatorback]

when i break the law i'm not for them.

when i don't break the law and something is happening to me that requires the law then i'm for them.

funny how it always seems to work out that way

[jbm32206]

Although I'm in favor of the cameras, (and they have made some positive impacts in other cities) I'm not in favor of them using any money collected from fines, to fund police officers...it's just not a guaranteed source of funding.

[second_pancake]

More cameras = fewer police officers on the road.  The less police presence, the greater the likelihood of people breaking laws and rules.  There is also the embarassment factor that plays into being pulled over in the middle of traffic, while a police officer walks up to you and hands you a ticket.  If you're free to go on your merry way and then you get a ticket in the mail, what do you think the odds are that you'll speed again?  Pretty good I'd say, after all no person actually saw you do anything.  And what exactly is a police officer's job if not to be out on the streets enforcing the laws?  Does this mean our police force will become even more obese sitting behind a desk eating Krispy Kremes?  Does this mean that the use of tasers will INCREASE with the move torwards passive law enforcement?  That's a big Y.E.S. as far as I'm concerned.

It's easy to say, put the cameras up and put the officers out in the 'hood where the "real" crimes are committed, but that solution is the equivalent of solving a rat problem by installing feral cats to run wild; pretty soon you have a CAT problem. 

[KenFSU]

I've just never liked the idea, and I think it's a real slippery slope to start moving in that direction. The problem with something like these cameras is that they aren't experimental. If they go up, they stay up. Sure, it sounds fine and well now to justify the cameras by saying they'll pay for 100 police officers or whatever the number is, but for how long? One year. Two years. What happens in ten years? Twenty years? Will that money be going to better the residents of Jacksonville, or will it be used to install more cameras that potentially eliminate jobs with the police? My opinion is that 66 cameras will inevitably lead to 660 cameras will inevitably lead to 6,600 cameras, etc. Look at what has happened in England. A few traffic cameras have turned into 4.2 million CCTV cameras throughout the country - one for every 14 citizens. Citizens in England are captured on camera over 300 times per day. Some of the newer CCTV cameras over there have speakers mounted to them allowing the police officers/officials/workers monitoring them to bark at them for looking suspicious or not putting their trash in the proper recepticle. Who wants that?

I genuinely hate the "if you're not doing anything wrong you don't have anything to worry about" rhetoric. It's overly simplistic, fundamentally unAmerican, and such wide-open transparency CERTAINLY doesn't translate over to the government and police side of the fence. Americans, and Jacksonville citizens, deserve better living conditions than a Gotcha~! society where robotic cameras watch their every move on the road waiting to catch them doing something wrong. It's enough to make even the most law-abiding, honest, tax-paying citizens nervous, uncomfortable and paranoid. Again, who wants to live like that?

There's got to be a balance of power to these things between the authority figures and the citizens. In my opinion, if you want to put cameras up along the roads to monitor how I drive, then let's go ahead and put publicly accessable cameras up in every police station, squad car, prison, and local government officials office so that the citizens of Jacksonville can watch how these people go about their daily lives. Maybe we can catch them doing something they're not supposed to. I've got nothing but respect for the police department, always have, but unless it's a two sided thing, we creep further away from the police working for us (something people forget too easily) and closer towards the police working against us.

What is it that Ben Franklin said? A [city] willing to give up a little bit of liberty for a little bit of security deserves neither.

[gatorback]

Didn't those cameras in England lead to catching the terrorist who were blowing things up over there?  Did the Japanese catch the subway terrorist with the help of the cameras?  And did Atlanta use the cameras to catch the guy who blew up Centennial Park during the Olympic Games? I’m for a safer Jacksonville.  Would those cameras benefit all and thus make Jacksonville a better place to live?

[second_pancake]

Didn't those cameras in England lead to catching the terrorist who were blowing things up over there?  Did the Japanese catch the subway terrorist with the help of the cameras?  And did Atlanta use the cameras to catch the guy who blew up Centennial Park during the Olympic Games? I’m for a safer Jacksonville.  Would those cameras benefit all and thus make Jacksonville a better place to live?

Yes, however, the cameras should not REPLACE existing officer presence.  Just think of what could happen if the analyst reviewing the camera activity were able to notify the officer sitting within 5 miles of that camera, and he were able to call for back-up and make an immediate stop and arrest.  Waiting days, weeks, and or months to have someone seek out a known fugitive based on recordings from a camera is not the way to protect citizens.

[gatorback]

Didn't those cameras in England lead to catching the terrorist who were blowing things up over there?  Did the Japanese catch the subway terrorist with the help of the cameras?  And did Atlanta use the cameras to catch the guy who blew up Centennial Park during the Olympic Games? I’m for a safer Jacksonville.  Would those cameras benefit all and thus make Jacksonville a better place to live?

Yes, however, the cameras should not REPLACE existing officer presence.  Just think of what could happen if the analyst reviewing the camera activity were able to notify the officer sitting within 5 miles of that camera, and he were able to call for back-up and make an immediate stop and arrest.  Waiting days, weeks, and or months to have someone seek out a known fugitive based on recordings from a camera is not the way to protect citizens.

What ever happened to the concept of a The best offense...is a good defense?  The In Your Face of the cameras will protect citizens.  When crime goes down you can get rid of the officers all together!  ha wouldn't that be nice.  Truth is, wouldn't you rather spend the money on other aspects of society like housing the homeless or, dog parks, maybe even bike trails? 

[second_pancake]

Truth is, wouldn't you rather spend the money on other aspects of society like housing the homeless or, dog parks, maybe even bike trails? 

In lieu of cameras, sure.  In lieu of real, live police officers, no....ok, maybe of few of them...one inparticular.  I'd sacrifice his salary to build a nice, new, off-road trail on some wooded land closer to town

[KenFSU]

Didn't those cameras in England lead to catching the terrorist who were blowing things up over there?  Did the Japanese catch the subway terrorist with the help of the cameras?  And did Atlanta use the cameras to catch the guy who blew up Centennial Park during the Olympic Games?

Nope, the London bombings were suicide attacks, very strange suicide attacks at that, and no official inquiry into the attacks was ever conducted. There was no one to "catch," as the men who carried those backpacks onto the trains were killed in the blasts.

Nope, The sarin attacks in the Tokyo Subway were solved just fine without the presence of CC cameras.

And absolutely not. No surveillance cameras caught the Centennial Park attack, that's why Richard Jewel was originally implicated. The case was eventually solved through good old-fashioned police work.

[gatorback]

Didn't those cameras in England lead to catching the terrorist who were blowing things up over there?  Did the Japanese catch the subway terrorist with the help of the cameras?  And did Atlanta use the cameras to catch the guy who blew up Centennial Park during the Olympic Games?

Nope, the London bombings were suicide attacks, very strange suicide attacks at that, and no official inquiry into the attacks was ever conducted. There was no one to "catch," as the men who carried those backpacks onto the trains were killed in the blasts.

Nope, The sarin attacks in the Tokyo Subway were solved just fine without the presence of CC cameras.

And absolutely not. No surveillance cameras caught the Centennial Park attack, that's why Richard Jewel was originally implicated. The case was eventually solved through good old-fashioned police work.

It would be interesting to learn how much the cameras weeded out in the investigation leading the detectives to focus their efforts.

[JeffreyS]

Is their any info about whether cameras make intersections safer.  I will support cameras if they do.  I won't support speed traps for the sake of revenue.