China unveils its second stealth fighter plane

[spuwho]

As reported in Aviation Week and Space Technology,

Shenyang has unveiled the second Chinese stealth fighter prototype



Bill Sweetman and Richard Fisher Washington and Bradley Perrett Beijing

China's unveiling of a second low-observable (LO) or stealthy fighter, a Shenyang product possibly designated J-31, followed the same pattern as the revelation of the Chengdu J-20 at the end of 2010: Photos were leaked via the Internet on the eve of a U.S. defense secretary's visit to Beijing. The not-too-subtle message, as the U.S. follows through with its plans to shift air and naval forces to the Pacific region, is that China's own military modernization is not slowing down.

The first images of the J-31 show that the aircraft is very different from the large, canard-delta J-20. The Shenyang fighter appears to be much smaller than the J-20, with about two-thirds as much installed power. It is a quad-tail design with a moderately swept clipped-delta wing and large canted vertical tails, with a similar overall layout to the Lockheed Martin F-22â€"but more like the F-35A Joint Strike Fighter in terms of overall size. Weapon bays occupy the entire lower body aft of the inlets and ahead of the engine bays (unlike on the J-20, there are no side bays). Flight controls are conventional, with separate rudders and single-piece flaperons.

As in the case of the J-20, most of the stealth-shaping techniques are very similar to those on Lockheed Martin fighters, but the engine nozzles are conventional. The nozzle shape on the prototype is close to that of the Klimov RD-93 engine installation on the Chengdu JF-17 fighter, minus the tapered “collar” that fairs the latter's nozzle into the aft fuselage. Thrust vectoring has been studied in China but has not yet been demonstrated in flight.

[spuwho]

Russia has had one in development longer than China.

The PAK-FA has three prototypes currently in flight testing and will reach production before China does.

[Ocklawaha]

Meanwhile back in the U.S.A. we're getting more of these.

[Jason]

^  So the F-22, F-35, and F-117 don't count as US stealth fighter aricraft?  The 117 Stealth fighter has been around for decades!

And I'd put the F-22 up against anything the Russians or Chinese are flying....

[wsansewjs]

This is really an old news. Honestly...

-Josh

[civil42806]

^  So the F-22, F-35, and F-117 don't count as US stealth fighter aricraft?  The 117 Stealth fighter has been around for decades!

And I'd put the F-22 up against anything the Russians or Chinese are flying....

that is if the pilot doesnt suffocate on the way to the engagement

[Captain Zissou]

This is really an old news. Honestly...
-Josh

The J-31 photos are maybe 2 or at most 3 weeks old.  Relax.  I wonder what sort of funding China has put towards building out a fleet of J-31s.  At the rate the JSF program is coming along, they may have a chance to play some catch up in the stealth fighter department.

[blizz01]

What does any of this have to do with Mellow Mushroom?                      - or streetcars?

[Jason]

This is really an old news. Honestly...
-Josh

The J-31 photos are maybe 2 or at most 3 weeks old.  Relax.  I wonder what sort of funding China has put towards building out a fleet of J-31s.  At the rate the JSF program is coming along, they may have a chance to play some catch up in the stealth fighter department.

I think that is the concern Cap'n.  It definitely begs the question "What does China plan to do with these new planes?"  Surely they'll have a few posted up on their shiney new carrier...

http://blogs.wsj.com/chinarealtime/2012/09/25/introducing-the-liaoning-chinas-new-aircraft-carrier-and-what-it-means/

^  So the F-22, F-35, and F-117 don't count as US stealth fighter aricraft?  The 117 Stealth fighter has been around for decades!

And I'd put the F-22 up against anything the Russians or Chinese are flying....

that is if the pilot doesnt suffocate on the way to the engagement

because of all of that stealth ass he's haulin? 

[civil42806]

This is really an old news. Honestly...
-Josh

The J-31 photos are maybe 2 or at most 3 weeks old.  Relax.  I wonder what sort of funding China has put towards building out a fleet of J-31s.  At the rate the JSF program is coming along, they may have a chance to play some catch up in the stealth fighter department.

I think that is the concern Cap'n.  It definitely begs the question "What does China plan to do with these new planes?"  Surely they'll have a few posted up on their shiney new carrier...

http://blogs.wsj.com/chinarealtime/2012/09/25/introducing-the-liaoning-chinas-new-aircraft-carrier-and-what-it-means/

^  So the F-22, F-35, and F-117 don't count as US stealth fighter aricraft?  The 117 Stealth fighter has been around for decades!

And I'd put the F-22 up against anything the Russians or Chinese are flying....

that is if the pilot doesnt suffocate on the way to the engagement

because of all of that stealth ass he's haulin? 

Nah because the ECS system has been screwed up since day one and lockheed has never resolved the problem.  Thats why most of the time the F-22 is secure and safe on the ground.  The chinese carrier is a jump jet carrier, much like the old brit ones, no indication that these aircraft have short take off capability

[spuwho]

Thanks Captain, indeed this prototype is quite new and not the same as the one that came out of hiding in late 2010.  The size is more closely related to the F-35 Lightning II, whereas the Chengdu is more closely related to the F-22. The 2 Chinese stealth planes have one serious disadvantage. The engines (2 kinds) are low on combat thrust and are not vectored.

Speaking of our F-22 Raptor, it got its butt kicked in a Red Flag exercise in Alaska when up against the new Eurofighter Typhoon with Luftwaffe pilots aboard. Even the Germans were shocked how easily they could out turn the F-22 and get behind it for the kill.

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2012/07/f-22-fighter-loses-79-billion-advantage-in-dogfights-report/

A couple of things against the F-22 in the engagement, the pilots were not wearing their "in-helmet" weapons control which allowed "look to shoot" capability (the Typhoons were). This system is still having issues and has not reached the deployment status.

The F-22 is significantly heavier than a Typhoon due to its size, so while it can vector its thrust, it can't out thrust the Typhoon in combat.

Therefore F-22 pilots are going to need more training to exploit the Raptor in similar conditions.

It was determined that (2) F-15E's with the newest AESA radar installed could easily defeat an F-22 at range. How many F-15's does it take to buy a F-22?

Boeing is currently working on the F-15 SE (Silent Eagle) which uses modern stealth technologies (radar absorption, conformal weapon bays and applies it to the F-15E airframe.



Some of the stealth coatings tech has already been exported to South Korea on the F-15K, but development on the full model is underway.

[Jason]

I didn't realize the F-22s were having so many issues.  Everything I've read says nothing but good things about them.

How do they compare to their Russian counterparts?

[Dog Walker]

All of these are going to the last generation of manned interceptor aircraft in any case.  The pilot is now the limiting factor in range and agility and will be eliminated.

[spuwho]

I didn't realize the F-22s were having so many issues.  Everything I've read says nothing but good things about them.

How do they compare to their Russian counterparts?

Actually they compare really well. The F-22 has gotten some bad press lately, but actually it is a very capable aircraft.

The oxygen problem is still being looked into. One of the things they are looking at is the new G suit design. They have reason to believe the suit is applying too much pressure in the chest and restricting breathing enough to cause reduced oxygen levels.

The other issue born out in the ABC News article from the Red Flag exercise is that the F-22 has problems when in the "merge" with another aircraft.  Now the F-22 was designed to clear the airspace well in advance so it doesn't have to get into a merge with anything.

Further research on the Eurofighter Typhoons showed that they were actually spotted by the F-22 20 miles away and could have been engaged much sooner by the F-22, but the exercise wanted them to get closer to see how the Raptor would respond. This is where some of the design limitations in the Raptor were exposed. Being a heavier plane it loses too much energy in a battle of turns compared to the Typhoon. Also, the USAF wanted to see if "any" tactics could overcome a Raptor in a combat situation.

Technically, this means any plane of the Typhoons' caliber (like a French Rafale) could defeat a Raptor in the merge.  There is already a rumor that a Rafale has already defeated a Raptor in the merge. But remember, the "enemy" has to  be able to get inside the F-22's combat radius without being detected first, and since the F-22 is very hard to detect at distance, you can see how anyone getting within its radius is difficult.

Pilot training will ultimately be the differentiation between Raptor success and Raptor issues. It still takes a well trained person to make a great tool work with precision.

[Jason]

Now that makes some sence.  If the F-22 can blow you out of the sky before you even know its there then there is no reason for close engagement.

Thanks for the clarification.

And I agree DW, UAVs are the future.