Downtown Housing article

[CityLife]

This is my whole point.  You need those rents bare minimum to make new high rise infill work.  You can chop off 20-30% to make decent hybrid/mid-rise work.  An expensive rehab is going to require decently high rents, too, maybe not as high.  Look at rentals downtown...aside from the rare repositioning such as City Place Apts, most infill and rehabbed buildings downtown command the highest rents in the city...out of necessity.  Though none are as high as really required, hence the notable struggles of almost every development downtown and the huge incentives required for each one.

I agree that those are the type of numbers to make high rise infill housing work.  However, I think Jax has so many parking lots that it would be better off with low rise mix of 2-4 story infill in areas like Brooklyn, LaVilla and the Cathedral District.  You can still pack in some decent market rate density with low rise development.  DC, New Orleans, Charleston and Savannah are great examples of this.

Yea, that is the point I thought I made to Simms. I was saying we should focus DT housing efforts on low and mid-rise housing. That is the easiest and most realistic way to build housing for the types of people that most want to live downtown right now, many of whom are and will be contributing to a DT comeback.

Next time I go to Tally, I'll try and snap some shots of some of the 3-5 story urban rental housing that is being built near DT/FSU/FAMU. The land was probably more expensive than it is here and the price points are still relatively affordable. Oh and some of the buildings are actually fairly well designed.

One of the big issues relating to DT housing is that many of the organizations who are involved in DT redevelopment, don't focus ANY attention on the areas where affordable housing could be built. DVI, for instance only focuses on the CBD area, where you couldn't build anything affordable even if you got a Paradoresque hookup.

[MusicMan]

Yes City Place is affordable downtown housing. Last time I posted that I was ridiculed. Fact remains, those places
are cheap and you can trick them out if you want to. Nice views as well. They are selling between $20,000 and $50,000 right now. How cheap does it have to be? 

Another alternative is Springfield. Amazing values over there. Just go look! I just put a nicely renovated home under contract over the weekend:  4 bed 2 baths 2200 sq ft literally adjacent to Klutho Park on Silver St, for well under $100,000.  Needs less than $10,000 of repair (all WDO) and the buyer is getting Neighborhood Lift $$ from Wells Fargo.

[thelakelander]

^Affordability and housing stock diversity are major reasons why I'm a fan of establishing a starter fixed transit line tying urban core neighborhoods together.  For a minor investment (compared to subsidizing every private sector residential project in the Northbank), you enable small scale and market rate residential infill and redevelopment to take place in multiple communities with different residential supply, while strengthening downtown's economic atmosphere for infill transit oriented development. 

Not everyone who desires urban living wants to live in a condo, a high rise building, rent or get raped monthly with some crazy lease or mortgage rate.  Not everyone with kids wants to stay in the burbs either, so urban living does appeal to more than fresh out of school young professionals and empty nesters. I'm one who would be fine living in a townhouse in a spot like LaVilla or even New Springfield, if there were fixed transit allowing me to enjoy not having to use a vehicle to get to everything.  I'd even consider restoring an existing residence myself in a spot like Brentwood or Durkeeville if they provided the perks of city living.  There's great value in those neighborhoods, they just lack the amenities/perks of urban living necessary to attract market rate conomic redevelopment.

Next time I go to Tally, I'll try and snap some shots of some of the 3-5 story urban rental housing that is being built near DT/FSU/FAMU. The land was probably more expensive than it is here and the price points are still relatively affordable. Oh and some of the buildings are actually fairly well designed.

One of the big issues relating to DT housing is that many of the organizations who are involved in DT redevelopment, don't focus ANY attention on the areas where affordable housing could be built. DVI, for instance only focuses on the CDB area, where you couldn't build anything affordable even if you got a Paradoresque hookup.

It's been a few years since I've been to Tallahassee and Gainesville but they have several examples of low rise urban housing that Jacksonville lacks.  Here are a few images:

Tallahassee




Gainesville

[simms3]

I do question the ability to put City Place Apts affordability in Jacksonville without something like City Place available in the first place (limited existing opportunities) or very creative public financing incentives such as TIF.

Also, while I am a big fan of affordable housing (I work on a mixed-use project that used $5MM TIF in another city to allow for a certain percentage of our condo units to sell at locally affordable price points) and I have seen the benefits of affordable housing in general, I hope we're not expecting it to look like anything other than affordable housing.  Think stick construction, no or little street level retail, minimal design features, etc.  Most developers won't mix it in with higher end product unless forced, and I don't think Jax is that progressive yet but fill me in if I'm wrong.

What are the tools Jacksonville has in place to incentivize or even force afforable housing?  I don't think the city is quite in position to force it, but maybe that's what is scaring away all the development!  Proformas are probably scary close enough as it is on new deals in the city considering what I would guess is a higher cost of capital given the market and lower starting rents and price points.

Outside of affordable rental units, your typical infill mid-rise development is going to be more expensive than the average product in Jacksonville as there isn't a lot of mid-rise/hybrid product around the market.  A deck garage alone will pump up rental rates.  Concrete construction for anything in the 5-10 floor range will really pump up rates.  Adding retail can complicate the project, increase the cost of debt in various ways and thus pump up rates.  Lots of factors.

All of the above look better than most any new construction in Jax metro, but I'm not foaming at the mouth to see those things go in DT or Lavilla.  Maybe 1-2 to start off with and then hope for something better.  I see those kinds of projects as true neighborhood infill around the CBD area, not in the CBD area.  I guess beggars can't be choosers though!

[simms3]

FYI the 2nd pic is what I totally envision for Springfield and parts of Riverside.  Loves it.

[thelakelander]

Jax's best tool is the mobility plan's mobility fee and fee credit adjustments, which provide significant financial incentives to the private sector for higher density infill development and TOD.  Unfortunately, that incentive is rendered totally ineffective by the mobility fee moratorium.

[thelakelander]

FYI the 2nd pic is what I totally envision for Springfield and parts of Riverside.  Loves it.

I like it too.  That's my old college professor's project.  With Riverside and Springfield being historic districts, that type of infill would never fly in those neighborhoods.  However, it is possible for neighborhoods like Brooklyn and the Cathedral District.

[simms3]

Jax's best tool is the mobility plan's mobility fee and fee credit adjustments, which provide significant financial incentives to the private sector for higher density infill development and TOD.  Unfortunately, that incentive is rendered totally ineffective by the mobility fee moratorium.

Biggest thing holding Jacksonville back right now?

[simms3]

FYI the 2nd pic is what I totally envision for Springfield and parts of Riverside.  Loves it.

I like it too.  That's my old college professor's project.  With Riverside and Springfield being historic districts, that type of infill would never fly in those neighborhoods.  However, it is possible for neighborhoods like Brooklyn and the Cathedral District.

We can start somewhere.  Again, historic district has served its purpose or in some cases done the opposite in Jax.  Get rid of them.  There are larger, more historic suburbs in the NE that are not even official historic districts that make Avondale and even Springfield seem like modern day suburbs.  The best neighborhoods are either REALLY historic, dense and walkable, like brownstone neighborhoods in parts of Manhattan, or they are old streetcar suburbs that have married quaint history with contemporary design and infill (many parts of Atlanta).  Even the oldest parts of Manhattan and Boston are marrying the most striking modern day design with the 19th and 18th century brownstones and warehouses.  Interesting Places 101.

[thelakelander]

Jax's best tool is the mobility plan's mobility fee and fee credit adjustments, which provide significant financial incentives to the private sector for higher density infill development and TOD.  Unfortunately, that incentive is rendered totally ineffective by the mobility fee moratorium.

Biggest thing holding Jacksonville back right now?

I really believe so.  There's nothing else in place that remotely encourages and funds the creation of the type of atmosphere most on these forums tend desire in an urban community.  We can talk about the need for official historic districts but all that is, is talk.  That's not the official process to get to a desired point.  The mobility plan and fee are already approved by the state and city council.  Now its just a matter of letting it do what it was intended to do.

[finehoe]

I didn't like the idea of paying more for a smaller space and still being subjected to using the car for reverse commutes to access services that should be within walking distance.

Lake makes a key point.  In most cities, people are willing to pay a premium to live downtown because they can make up all or most of the difference by not having to have a car.  They can walk or take public transit to most, if not all the necessities of life.  You just can't do that in downtown Jacksonville.

[If_I_Loved_you]

I didn't like the idea of paying more for a smaller space and still being subjected to using the car for reverse commutes to access services that should be within walking distance.

Lake makes a key point.  In most cities, people are willing to pay a premium to live downtown because they can make up all or most of the difference by not having to have a car.  They can walk or take public transit to most, if not all the necessities of life.  You just can't do that in downtown Jacksonville.

"You just can't do that in downtown Jacksonville." Ding! Ding! Ding! If I lived in Atlanta Ga I wouldn't nor could I afford to live in Downtown Atlanta. But I can live in Sandy Springs or Chamblee and take Marta into Downtown Atlanta or the Airport and several other places and still live in suburban. Jacksonville lacks this and until a system like Marta is built, or the streetcars come back downtown Jacksonville will never be any better then it is now. 

[CityLife]

What are the tools Jacksonville has in place to incentivize or even force afforable housing?  I don't think the city is quite in position to force it, but maybe that's what is scaring away all the development!  Proformas are probably scary close enough as it is on new deals in the city considering what I would guess is a higher cost of capital given the market and lower starting rents and price points.

Well, as you can see from the TU article, 220 Riverside got a 20 year tax abatement, which equals a 4.9 million dollar incentive. I'd say that is quite enticing...Additionally, the city could create a TIF district in a specific area designated for workforce/affordable housing and use that money to subsidize/facilitate desired residential development in that area. Or the city could actually carry through with the Hogan's Creek Greenway plans and create a top notch urban park near downtown, which would be a huge driver of infill housing. Or it could do a better job recruiting out of town developers and educating the Sleimans of the world. Or our Mayor could ACTUALLY put his money where his mouth is and form a Public/Private Partnership to develop housing DT. After all, the city does own half of the vacant land downtown. Or the city could put in streetcar or other fixed transit, which would spur significant housing development. I could go on and on about the countless things Jacksonville can do to make downtown more attractive to developers...all while getting a good ROI over the long term.

I'll also add that I was not in any way advocating forcing affordable housing. Simply doing things to facilitate housing development and let the market dictate what gets built. I don't have facts and figures, but I'm fairly confident the market would dictate stuff that is comparable to what Lake posted (thanks btw) and not high end stuff.  The real question is does DVI, JEDC/DIA, the Mayor's office have that info? If not, they aren't doing their jobs.

[vicupstate]

On a recent visit to Nashville, I toured several historic districts and each one had not only their historic homes, but also comtemporary townhouse/rowhouse and multi-story construction mixed in.  Some of the new buildings were somewhat 'replica' in design details, but just as many were instead quite modern.  It made for an interesting mixture, that no doubt provides offerings that appeal to just about everyone.           

[Debbie Thompson]

FYI the 2nd pic is what I totally envision for Springfield and parts of Riverside.  Loves it.

I like it too.  That's my old college professor's project.  With Riverside and Springfield being historic districts, that type of infill would never fly in those neighborhoods.  However, it is possible for neighborhoods like Brooklyn and the Cathedral District.

I don't know about that.  They are very "Kluthoesque/Frank Lloyd Wright-ish."  Similar to the Klutho Apartments on Main Street, really.   I think they'd be approved in Springfield.