9/11 - Conspiracies Abound.

[Lunican]

Here is some info about WTC 7.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/engineering/architecture/4278874

http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/engineering/architecture/4278927

[peestandingup]

You also have to take into account the time that went by between when they knew it was a hijacking, to the first plane impact, and then the second plane hitting. It was quite a while (especially for the second impact). Something like 45 minutes?? Thats crazy.

I don't know if I buy that that would even be possible in the biggest country, with the biggest most advanced military, in one of the biggest cities in the world without some inside help.

[carpnter]

You also have to take into account the time that went by between when they knew it was a hijacking, to the first plane impact, and then the second plane hitting. It was quite a while (especially for the second impact). Something like 45 minutes?? Thats crazy.

I don't know if I buy that that would even be possible in the biggest country, with the biggest most advanced military, in one of the biggest cities in the world without some inside help.

It was only 17-18 minutes between the planes hitting.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_for_the_day_of_the_September_11_attacks

[Non-RedNeck Westsider]

We could just let today be about the victims and the brave people that risked it all to rescue so many and talk about conspiracies the other 364 days of the year.

I'm sure we all empathize with the victims families or sympathize if you had you're own family or friends involved in the tragedy.  I really do, but this is our generation's version of the Kennedy assassination.  There are too many variables.  Today is a day of reflection, but we also need to be reminded of the possibility that all of these people were murdered by their own.

Sure, it can be neatly boxed and tied with a bow - Bin Laden planned a strike, executed, and then a decade later we invaded his country and killed the mass murderer.  I'm sure plenty find solace in the fact that this chapter is closed.

Or...

You can question the real motive behind it, ask questions and stay aware.  Personally, I didn't have any family or friends involved, so I'm able to have an unbiased, somewhat objective view.  I hate to think that our own government would do something such as this, but I'm also unable to wrap my head around the fact that, essentially, some religeous zealots from the desert were able to pull off such a feat.

[bobsim]

 Adam W, I didn't mean to reply to your post, must have hit the wrong button.

  I just wanted to post some good data, not engage in an argument. I type slow and there's no way I can keep up with you folks.

 

[Adam W]

Adam W, I didn't mean to reply to your post, must have hit the wrong button.

  I just wanted to post some good data, not engage in an argument. I type slow and there's no way I can keep up with you folks.

No problem! I think I might've just assumed you were addressing my post 

[BridgeTroll]

We could just let today be about the victims and the brave people that risked it all to rescue so many and talk about conspiracies the other 364 days of the year.

I'm sure we all empathize with the victims families or sympathize if you had you're own family or friends involved in the tragedy.  I really do, but this is our generation's version of the Kennedy assassination.  There are too many variables.  Today is a day of reflection, but we also need to be reminded of the possibility that all of these people were murdered by their own.

Sure, it can be neatly boxed and tied with a bow - Bin Laden planned a strike, executed, and then a decade later we invaded his country and killed the mass murderer.  I'm sure plenty find solace in the fact that this chapter is closed.

Or...

You can question the real motive behind it, ask questions and stay aware.  Personally, I didn't have any family or friends involved, so I'm able to have an unbiased, somewhat objective view.  I hate to think that our own government would do something such as this, but I'm also unable to wrap my head around the fact that, essentially, some religeous zealots from the desert were able to pull off such a feat.

Jeez NRW... this stuff sounds kind of Bostech-ish.  Really??

There were explosions going of that mimic those heard in demolition.
The lobby was blown apart well before many of the firefighters arrived - the planes struck between the 93rd-99th on tower 1 and 77th-83rd on tower 2.
The planes that were video taped did not have the markings (none), colors (gray) of the size of the planes AA11 & AA175 that left the runways.
The area of the Pentagon that was hit had just been recently renovated (fortified) and wasn't fully staffed.
The amount of cellphone calls and the fact that they were being made at altitude from Flight 93.
Bin Laden immediately refuted the claims that he or Al Queida were involved in the attacks.

What does "blown apart"mean?
Many of the witnesses IDed the planes as American or United...
The Pentagon is how many years old?  It is constantly being renovated...
At Altitude??  you mean like this??

reports by telephone to Michael Woodward at the American Airlines Flight Services Office in Dallas, "Something is wrong. We are in a rapid descent... we are all over the place." A minute later, Woodward asks her to "describe what she sees out the window". She responds, "I see the water. I see the buildings. I see buildings..." After a short pause, she reports, "We are flying low. We are flying very, very low. We are flying way too low." Seconds later she says, "Oh my God, we are way too low.” The call ends with a burst of very loud, sustained static.

Bin Laden said what?  You certainly can take that to the bank...

C'mon man...

[77danj7]

We could just let today be about the victims and the brave people that risked it all to rescue so many and talk about conspiracies the other 364 days of the year.

I'm sure we all empathize with the victims families or sympathize if you had you're own family or friends involved in the tragedy.  I really do, but this is our generation's version of the Kennedy assassination.  There are too many variables.  Today is a day of reflection, but we also need to be reminded of the possibility that all of these people were murdered by their own.

Sure, it can be neatly boxed and tied with a bow - Bin Laden planned a strike, executed, and then a decade later we invaded his country and killed the mass murderer.  I'm sure plenty find solace in the fact that this chapter is closed.

Or...

You can question the real motive behind it, ask questions and stay aware.  Personally, I didn't have any family or friends involved, so I'm able to have an unbiased, somewhat objective view.  I hate to think that our own government would do something such as this, but I'm also unable to wrap my head around the fact that, essentially, some religeous zealots from the desert were able to pull off such a feat.

I have no problem questioning or whatever you call it...but there is plenty of time for that.  Even the Presidential campaigns are suspending their ads today because it's the one day we should just remember the loss of Americans...but I may just be biased since I have friends and family affected by this.

[PeeJayEss]

This thread is great. It lets me know which posters I shouldn't take seriously in other threads.

[Tacachale]

It's good to keep an open mind, but not so open that your brain falls out.

At the heart of all of these conspiracy claims is the idea that a few anomalous or unexplained details can somehow totally undermine a properly reasoned and evidenced explanation. Then, with all those inconvenient facts and measured conclusions out of the way, the conspiracist is free to concoct his own narrative, starting with the conclusion and then working backward to prove it, ignoring any evidence that doesn't fit. Invariably, conspiracists begin with the assumption that such a large-scale tragedy must have an equally large-scale cause, cycling in one or more of the classic go-to villains, such as "the government", the Jews, or the reptoids at the center of the earth to play the role.

Not everyone has the tools or faculties to recognize frauds and fallacious arguments. But it's deeply depressing to hear otherwise bright people fall for them, let alone promote them on a day like today.

[TPC]

As with a lot of theories/conspirecies I tend to ask myself who has something to gain and use the old addage "follow the money". There were a few interesting things that happened just days before 9/11 that involve suspected insider traiding.

Pulled from the Wiki Page.
Suspected insider trading

Just before 9/11 there was an "extraordinary" amount of put options placed on United Airlines and American Airlines stocks. Authorities believed, and some conspiracy theorists continue to maintain, that trading insiders may have known in advance of the coming events of 9/11 and placed their bets accordingly. An analysis into the possibility of insider trading on 9/11 concludes that:

    A measure of abnormal long put volume was also examined and seen to be at abnormally high levels in the days leading up to the attacks. Consequently, the paper concludes that there is evidence of unusual option market activity in the days leading up to September 11 that is consistent with investors trading on advance knowledge of the attacks.[70] â€"Allen M. Poteshman, The Journal of Business

On the days leading up to 9/11, two airlines saw a rise in their put to call ratio. These two airlines were United Airlines and American Airlines, the two airlines whose planes were hijacked on 9/11. Between September 6 and 7, the Chicago Board Options Exchange saw purchases of 4,744 "put" option contracts in UAL versus 396 call options. On September 10, more trading in Chicago saw the purchase of 4,516 put options in American Airlines, the other airline involved in the hijackings. This compares with a mere 748 call options in American purchased that day. No other airline companies saw anomalies in their put to call ratio in the days leading up to the attacks.[71] American Airlines however, had just released a major warning about possible losses.[72]

Insurance companies saw anomalous trading activities as well. Citigroup Inc., which has estimated that its Travelers Insurance unit may pay $500 million in claims from the World Trade Center attack, had about 45 times the normal volume during three trading days before the attack for options that profit if the stock falls below $40. Citigroup shares fell $1.25 in late trading to $38.09. Morgan Stanley, which occupied 22 floors at the World Trade Center, experienced bigger-than-normal pre-attack trading of options that profit when stock prices fall. Other companies that were directly affected by the tragedy had similar jumps.[73]

Raytheon, a defense contractor, had an anomalously high number of call options trading on September 10. A Raytheon option that makes money if shares are more than $25 each had 232 options contracts traded on the day before the attacks, almost six times the total number of trades that had occurred before that day.[citation needed]

The initial options were bought through at least two brokerage firms, including NFS, a subsidiary of Fidelity Investments, and TD Waterhouse. It was estimated that the trader or traders would have realized a five million dollar profit. The Securities and Exchange Commission launched an insider trading investigation in which Osama Bin Laden was a suspect after receiving information from at least one Wall Street Firm.

[finehoe]

I hate to think that our own government would do something such as this

Considering one of the most incompetent administrations ev-vah was in charge then makes it all the more the stuff of fantasy.  Even though Bush and Condo-sleeza were warned the previous month by the CIA that Bin Ladin was determined to strike in UShttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bin_Ladin_Determined_To_Strike_in_US they still couldn't get it together to do anything.

[BridgeTroll]

I hate to think that our own government would do something such as this

Considering one of the most incompetent administrations ev-vah was in charge then makes it all the more the stuff of fantasy.  Even though Bush and Condo-sleeza were warned the previous month by the CIA that Bin Ladin was determined to strike in UShttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bin_Ladin_Determined_To_Strike_in_US they still couldn't get it together to do anything.

LOL... just had to do it.  Could not help yourself...  I was waiting for it... and surprise!

[finehoe]

Just before 9/11 there was an "extraordinary" amount of put options placed on United Airlines and American Airlines stocks. Authorities believed, and some conspiracy theorists continue to maintain, that trading insiders may have known in advance of the coming events of 9/11 and placed their bets accordingly.

False:  http://www.snopes.com/rumors/putcall.asp

[Captain Zissou]

^ $5 Million dollars doesn't justify the lengths someone would have to go to coordinate the attacks of 9/11.  Bin Laden's family is already extremely wealthy (hundreds of millions), they wouldn't go to these lengths to increase their wealth by 5 million.

I watched about half of the loose change video today, and what Tacachale said is spot on.  The narrator starts with his a hole in the official story that is nothing more than conjecture, and then weaves his own narrative to fill the space, even though his explanation is equally shaky.  For example: 'people disagree what type of plane it was and the hole in the pentagon is smaller than it should be.... So it was a tomahawk cruise missile'.  Another instance is that he justified the 'explosions' in the building by stringing together some quotes of people saying they heard something that sounded like an explosion.... What do you think a plane slamming into a building would sound like?  In any situation, especially one as big and tangled as 9/11, if you go into it looking for a specific outcome, you will find things to support that outcome.  That doesn't mean that your outcome is correct.