The Courthouse is as Good as Dead.

[Jimmy]

I've said for years that I hoped they would mothball the design/build plans until we have new leadership to execute it.  With Mousa coming aboard, maybe it will be the next best thing?

[Driven1]

this whole thing is just freaking hilarious. 

STILL TALKING ABOUT A STUPID COURTHOUSE!

i wish i could draw cartoons like Gamble or whatever his name is at the T-U...if i could, i would draw one with Peyton just bashing his head over and over again on the "snake-bit" courthouse project.

we were talking about this back in 2002...let's take odds on we'll STILL be talking about the unfinished courthouse in 2011!!!  i'd give it 50/50 at least for a decade of talking about it.

[gatorback]

 pericles built the parthenon in less time

[gatorback]

freedom tower: completed 2009 cost: 3 billion  heigth: tallest in the world

[gatorback]

Jumping Holy Thursday what a (Song of Experience)
"Is this a holy thing to see,
In a rich and fruitful land,
Babes reduced to misery,
Fed with cold and usurios hand?"

[Hippodamus]

but I thought the project was dead?

Well Stephendare?  Shouldn't the 6 pages in this post be refiled under the opinion category, not the news. 
I do like the spin though trying to take credit of the change.  True Jacksonvillian/Athenian imperialism at work. 

signed:  Ἱππόδαμος


 

[vicupstate]

but I thought the project was dead?

Well Stephendare?  Shouldn't the 6 pages in this post be refiled under the opinion category, not the news. 
I do like the spin though trying to take credit of the change.  True Jacksonvillian/Athenian imperialism at work. 

signed:  Ἱππόδαμος


In defense of Stephen, Peyton may have put the word out to city council to kill the project because 1) he really wants to kill the project but wanted to have council to blame for why it got cancelled or 2) he was releasing a 'trial baloon' and it simply got shot down, after which he realized he has to get the courthouse built, or look like a complete failure.  While either scenario means he is playing politics with a important matter, that would not be out of character for him, or unfortunately, most politicians.     

 

[tufsu1]

Vicup...I agree....that said, I made that same suggestion last week and Mr. Dare shot it down!

[thelakelander]

We're mandated by law to do something.  The largest issue to me is seeing if they can figure out how to get the thing built for under $400 million. 

For example, I noticed in the "Wiley" plan documents (courthouse specs) that the Judge's offices have been enlarged from 200 sq. ft (roughly 14'x14') in the original $190 million specs to 240 sq. ft (roughly 15'x16') in the lastest plan.   

Others growing include the Family Courtrooms from 1000 sq. ft. to 1200 sq. ft. and Standard Courtrooms growing from 1750 sq. ft. to 1800 sq. ft.  These may not seem like much on an individual basis, but in a project this large, an extra foot here or an extra there can really increase your overall costs.

Currently, we're using 416,625 sq. ft. spread out over 9 facilites across town, including 30,000 sq. ft. of warehouse space for Clerk of Courts record storage.  The courthouse plan on the table, comes out to around 1.2 million sq. ft., when you add in the Ed Ball Building and old Federal Courthouse.  I know they're cramped for space, but can we get away with a larger facility that's less than triple the size of what we're already working with?

Personally, I believe if we can start chipping away a foot here and there on a few of these spaces, the footprint shrinks, which means less building material is required, which means the price drops.

[RiversideGator]

The problem is the judicial system is really cramped right now and spread out all over town.  They need to add space just to deal with current issues and to plan for the courthouse to be used for the next 50 years.  This is the reason for the large space requirement.  If you do a half-right job now you will end up paying more to correct it later.

[thelakelander]

I understand, but we simply don't have the money.  Its a reality that we must face and work to find a solution that doesn't bankrupt the community or put additional needed capital improvement projects at risk of not being funded. 

With so many facilities spread out, is it safe to assume that some of the current space being used is going for duplicate sources that would be eliminated if constructed at a single site? 

For example, can the Judges take a trip to IKEA to learn how to maximize a 14'x14' office, if it means saving the taxpayer's a little money, by taking a foot or two out of 15'x16' space?  How about only constructing shell space for future expansion (which has been discussed), or designing a structure that can be expanded vertically, when the time comes?

If a place like Charlotte can construct their facility for nearly $100 less per square foot than ours, then we should be able to find some fat to trim off our $400 million turkey.

[Driven1]

i'm with Lake here...it is called living within your means - not DOUBLE of what your means are ($190 million vs. $395 million).

btw...yes, costs are higher, but two things:

1) construction costs have actually taken a nice dip since the housing slowdown (makes me wonder how much of the new price bids are the contractors trying to keep up 2004 profits in a 2008 market)

2) the cost has more than doubled in 5 years.  and yes, inflation has kicked up - but only to the tune of 3% average/year.  at 3%/year inflation, it takes 21 YEARS for something to double in cost.

[thelakelander]

Costly courthouse deserves special vote in referendum

By RON LITTLEPAGE, The Times-Union

Mayor John Peyton's proposed $400 million courthouse gets smellier by the day.

Peyton has been trying for five years without success to get the courthouse built, hemorrhaging taxpayer money along the way.

In what amounts to waving a white flag and admitting that neither he nor his highly paid staff can get it done, Peyton is turning to Sam Mousa, a City Hall veteran who now works for J.B. Coxwell Contracting, for help.

Peyton wants to hire Mousa to oversee the courthouse project. The part-time work would net Mousa $225 an hour, with a maximum of $135,000.

That's just wrong.

I have a lot of respect for Mousa and he has a track record of completing tough assignments.

But Peyton's chief administrative officer, Alan Mosley, is already being paid $175,000 a year and his public works director, Joey Duncan, $141,000 a year.

If they can't get the job done with so many tax dollars flowing into their bank accounts, then fill those jobs with people who can.

That, however, isn't Peyton's style. He has a habit of tossing around high salaries like they were candy at a parade.

Maybe he has missed the fact that there's a taxpayer revolt in progress because of big spending and wasted money.

Well, he won't be able to ignore the explosion a $400 million courthouse would ignite.

If Peyton continues to insist on that astronomical price tag, there's only one thing to do:

Put the courthouse back on the ballot.

I'm not the only one suggesting that. Former Mayor Jake Godbold said this week that he's been urging Peyton to do just that.

The reasoning is simple: When voters approved the Better Jacksonville Plan, they agreed to spend $190 million on a new courthouse, not $400 million.

To break that covenant and spend that much, Godbold argues, would further erode the public's confidence in elected officials, a confidence already shaken by broken promises such as the approval of the runway extension at Craig field.

Godbold also correctly points out that any future bond issues that would need the approval of voters would likely fail because of the courthouse deceit.

The solution is simple:

If $400 million must be spent on a courthouse, if the city's general fund has to be depleted for 30 years to help pay that kind of debt, then mount a campaign much like John Delaney did with the Better Jacksonville Plan and convince the voters.

Or propose a more reasonable alternative and convince the voters to approve that.

And if the judges aren't satisfied and want to force a more expensive courthouse on the taxpayers, then let them try.

The last time I checked, they have to face the voters to keep their jobs.

http://www.jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/021508/opl_247024210.shtml

[tufsu1]

hmm.

i dunno tufsu.

you think its going to be built still?

I suspect mousa is going to find out that the cost estimates are off by 70 million.....maybe more.

what makes you think differently....do you take all of Mr. Littlepage's rantings as fact?

As stated by many above, we need a new courthouse....the existing one is too small and its falling apart....I'm not saying we need a Taj Mahal, but yes something will be built!

[reednavy]

So, Florida's largest urban prairie will stay that way, IMAGINE THAT! I feel really bad for this city really. Orange County did do it right, vertical! We really need to look at their downtown as a model, and thaqts the only thing we need to model after. The sprawl, hmm, we got that down with Orange Park.