Tearing Down Worman's Deli - via Jax Daily Record

[Timkin]

I know for a fact from a very unreliable source that the reason behind all the buildings being torn down is that the Jacksonville Histerical Society is working on a secret project to recreate what Jacksonville looked like after the Great Fire. Alert the media! You heard it here first!

FUNNY

[Timkin]

I think we sometimes fetishize (if that's even a word) buildings because they're old. That old Fire Station comes to mind.

I'm not trying to be controversial here. I just think that well-built (architecturally interesting) and useful buildings are what we need, whether they are old or new or whatever. Today's new building is tomorrow's old building. The buildings we regard so highly today were once new buildings.

So I don't necessarily think we should just preserve old buildings because they're old.

Okay, that said.... Jacksonville really, really needs to stop tearing down buildings. I'd rather have old, unremarkable buildings than empty parking lots. This has to stop. I just don't understand the point. I don't see what the end game is here. What are we trying to accomplish?

I think we are in a shortage (somehow) of surface parking.

[Adam W]

I think we sometimes fetishize (if that's even a word) buildings because they're old. That old Fire Station comes to mind.

I'm not trying to be controversial here. I just think that well-built (architecturally interesting) and useful buildings are what we need, whether they are old or new or whatever. Today's new building is tomorrow's old building. The buildings we regard so highly today were once new buildings.

So I don't necessarily think we should just preserve old buildings because they're old.

Okay, that said.... Jacksonville really, really needs to stop tearing down buildings. I'd rather have old, unremarkable buildings than empty parking lots. This has to stop. I just don't understand the point. I don't see what the end game is here. What are we trying to accomplish?

I think we are in a shortage (somehow) of surface parking.

Now it all makes sense!

[vicupstate]

I wonder if they will leave the concrete foundation in place, in true Jacksonville style?

[aaapolito]

Could have saw that one coming a mile a way.  Especially, after that car ran into it a while ago.  Look on the bright side.  That lot will now match and rest of the moonscape surrounding the courthouse and downtown's newest food truck location will have clear visibility to the front door of the building.

Lake, your words may be prophetic. Imagine a block of food trucks like the block in Portland, Or.  From Broad to Jefferson along Adams could be filled with a diverse group of food trucks daily.

For those of you who are not familiar with this place, check out the link below.

http://www.oregonlive.com/mix/index.ssf/food-trends/portland-food-cart-scene.html

[thelakelander]

I wonder if they will leave the concrete foundation in place, in true Jacksonville style?

I'll be shocked if they cleared the full lot.  That would involve removing the building's foundation (does it have a basement?) and the broken up asphalt parking lot to the north.

[BackinJax05]

Just what downtown needs. 

[Noone]

[quote author=thelakelander link=topic=15694.msg289584#msg289584 date Look on the bright side.  That lot will now match and rest of the moonscape surrounding the courthouse and downtown's newest food truck location will have clear visibility to the front door of the building.
[/quote]

The DC Courthouse Tailgating District.

MJ is always ahead of the curve. Was Downtown yesterday and saw a food truck in what looks like a new fenced in parking lot on Jefferson. Our parking lot has a food truck!!!

The free market at work.

Imagine the organic cluster of surface parking lot themes.

The divorce lot.
His parking on the right
Her parking on the left.

Across the street the alimony lot.

The DUI Lot
Kegger going 24/7
Golf cart Valet service also available.

Free parking for judges.

Visit Jacksonville!

[Overstreet]

If you swooped in there you might be able to buy it and open something yourself.  It usually takes a little while to get the water off, power, etc and inspection before jerking it down.

The owners are looking at repair cost, taxes, libility insurance and other costs associated with an empty building.  A vacant lot cost less money and hassle.

[mtraininjax]

If that building is "historic" the people who covered up all the character of a building from 1909 should be thrown on the rubble heap afterward and run out of town. That building had no character from the outside, so to me, it is no real loss, as it appears now.

Did the Mayor use a Public/Private partnership to tear down the building? $8,000 could tear down a lot of Springfield residences in need of it.

[strider]

So to summarize,  we have the head of MCCD's polices making sure that another building goes down and the taxable value of the land drops almost $150,000.00.  And there is a good chance that the land value will drop as well.  Less tax dollars for the city to run on.  Meanwhile, like pointed out by others, another potential home for a small business goes away and we end up with another surface parking lot.

The first step to correct these issues is to change the polices of hindering from MCCD.  Isn't it a bit insane that the only choices given a property owner in this economy is to repair or demolish?  I know, that sounds reasonable until you find out that to repair in their eyes to to bring the property to full current code.  Their definition of safe includes full electric, water and HVAC. Nothing less will satisfy them.  The choice then becomes clear to the owner, spend tens of thousands for the property to continue to sit for a few more years or face hundreds of thousands worth of fines, attached to every single piece of property they own.  Or they can just tear it down for a few thousand.   

Mothballing tries to solve that issue and does help but MCCD still hinders the process every step of the way.  Two things are needed if you find value in the empty buildings anywhere in Jacksonville.  The first is to change the polices at MCCD.  The second is to get mothballing approved for the entire city.  Bill Killingsworth originally wanted that and it was shrunk down to only the Historic Districts to get it in place here in Jacksonville.

Mothballing is actually a less expensive alternative than demolition.  It cost less in the vast majority of the cases, it preserves the tax base and it preserves the feel of the streetscape.  Demolition costs us tax payers far more, reduces the tax base perhaps permanently and results in a post apocalyptic like appearance for a community.

Of course, we can just let all the old buildings go away and not care about all that.  MCCD would be very happy with that.

[mtraininjax]

Mothballing leads to other problems, squatters, no upkeep of the property and eyesores in the area. Prospective tenants or new business is less likely to move into Commercial retail when there are problem buildings with vagrants, or spray paint, you can see this along Forsyth with some of the old furniture buildings, which have sat idle for years now, and with no plans to incorporate them into a use with downtown. Annie Lytle has had its share of vagrants and fires and all kinds of issues. Is that what will become of a Mothballed Worman's?

If no one is going to use the structure, donate it to someone who will, why has donation to a non-profit not been discussed?

[johnny_simpatico]

I thought the Brown administration was big on downtown redevelopment. Have we heard any comment from our government suggesting that replacing one more building on the downtown moonscape with another parking lot is a bad idea?  Somebody should have jumped on finding another solution for this building.  It's not as if there is no demand for a decent lunch spot near the horrific new courthouse. I am disgusted. 

[vicupstate]

Mothballing leads to other problems, squatters, no upkeep of the property and eyesores in the area. Prospective tenants or new business is less likely to move into Commercial retail when there are problem buildings with vagrants, or spray paint, you can see this along Forsyth with some of the old furniture buildings, which have sat idle for years now, and with no plans to incorporate them into a use with downtown. Annie Lytle has had its share of vagrants and fires and all kinds of issues. Is that what will become of a Mothballed Worman's?

If no one is going to use the structure, donate it to someone who will, why has donation to a non-profit not been discussed?

Mtrain, Jax has tried it your way for decades with nothing positive to show for it.  Remember the definition of insanity?  When will Jax ever learn?


'Destroy it, and they will come' should be Jacksonville's motto.  Small organic businesses CANNOT afford to build new, and by extention pay top dollar for space.  Therefore they will not open in the DT area.  That is what has happened for decades now.  Without the local pioneers (who will take a risk),  the nationals will NEVER come, because the market is unproven. 

Compare that to Charleston where it is almost impossible to demo anything on the peninsula.  Sure, there are eyesores, but the gems were once eyesores too.  After 60 years of seeing eyesores turned into beautiful, productive (and very valuable) buildings, no one there even doubts that today's eyesores will also return to their glory, given more time.  They know the northward progression of revitilization up the peninsula is near certain to continue, because it has already done so for 60 years, and policy doesn't really allow any other option.   

BTW, the percentage of money that STAYS in the local economy with a renovation (labor intensive) is about double what stays local with new construction (material intensive).

[strider]

Mothballing leads to other problems, squatters, no upkeep of the property and eyesores in the area. Prospective tenants or new business is less likely to move into Commercial retail when there are problem buildings with vagrants, or spray paint, you can see this along Forsyth with some of the old furniture buildings, which have sat idle for years now, and with no plans to incorporate them into a use with downtown. Annie Lytle has had its share of vagrants and fires and all kinds of issues. Is that what will become of a Mothballed Worman's?

If no one is going to use the structure, donate it to someone who will, why has donation to a non-profit not been discussed?

Actually what you just described is what happens now.  MCCD condemns, threatens, fines and all the while, the owner has to get permission to even step foot onto his own property.  Most people do not thrive on hindering, in fact, they often respond by walking away.  So, yes, it sits and rots and attracts the vagrants and the graffiti.  Mothballing, done properly, avoids that issue.

Properly  mothballed, a house looks cared for because it is.  The windows are boarded, but painted to look like windows and to look more appealing.  There must be lights on the exterior and the structure must be made sound and water tight.  You just avoid the other finishing expenses, which are most often the lions share of the potential expenses once MCCD is involved.

The mothballed house must be looked after, the grass cut and the windows re-secured if needed.  It is inspected to be sure that is done.

A huge difference is in how it is dealt with.  It gives hope to the owner that their investment will not be lost.  It preserves the structure for tomorrow.  All because of a little help rather than the threats and demands and the fines.

I guess the bottom line here is would you rather look at a neglected structure with trash and over grown weeds for the 1 to 4 years it might take MCCD to get a structure demolished or would you rather look at a well kept one because the owner was treated properly by a city who cares?  Mothballing is helping and giving hope.