Boomtown, Main Street and the Downtown Springfield Axis

[thelakelander]

I didn't intend to alter your assessment.  If you feel Main/Springfield/Downtown or whatever neighborhood isn't the place for you, then by all means don't invest in that particular area.  However, that does not mean the neighborhood and its commercial districts aren't moving forward.

[jbm32206]

That would be absolutely ideal, if moon river pizza opened up at the old bakery!

[thelakelander]

It sounds like we have two different things/visions in mind.  It could be as simple as you envisioning a Five Points II and me envisioning a successful commercial district that does not take on a certain type of dominate theme or subculture, other than being urban and pedestrian friendly.

What is the retail strategy you don't agree with?  I don't think there is a real one in place, at this point, which opens things up for creativity and strong willed entrepreneurs who want to be a part of the area.  The area has its challenges (mainly leasing rates and conditions of commercial buildings, imo) but nothing that can't or hasn't been overcome before.

[thelakelander]

There arent any professional commercial real estate dealers on the main strip.

Bisette will be the first person to tell you that he is a residential guy and doesnt know about commercial real estate.

Mack Bisette isn't in charge of commercial development on Main.  Its a free market for anyone who wants to purchase property for their business or vision (ex. Cesery, Urban Worx).

Craig is a walking, breathing nightmare for the community of springfield and has personally done more to set the neighborhood back than 10 of the thirty years of neglect and crime....and he pretty much owns 8th street.

The Craig issue will eventually work its self out, but there are properties out there that can be taken advantage of, not owned by CVH.

Hionides, who controls main street, is willing to maintain the buildings that he purchased and would work with any viable plan out there, but is still busy absorbing the rest of his acquisitions.

Sounds like there's potential here.  This is good news, imo.

So the potential for new retail and commercial development is very very limited.

There are only a couple of strategies that I see that could make it work out there, and NONE OF THEM are on the table.

Again, I don't know if you need a "strategy" unless you want it to develop in a certain type of themed format with certain types of businesses.  This the area where the jury is still out.  There seems to be two sides to me.  One, that wants national chains and new buildings and the other who wants a local dominated commercial district that reuses existing buildings.  However, I'd like to hear about the retail strategies you have in mind.

[thelakelander]

What is the retail strategy you don't agree with?  I don't think there is a real one in place, at this point, which opens things up for creativity and strong willed entrepreneurs who want to be a part of the area.  The area has its challenges (mainly leasing rates and conditions of commercial buildings, imo) but nothing that can't or hasn't been overcome before.

There isnt one.

There is a half assed discussion going around that appealing to the 'younger' crowds is the direction the neighborhood needs to go.  Thats it.

Now this discussion, like any number of discussions over the years isnt enough to translate into a reality that works.

Don't you have to start somewhere?  This sounds like the perfect place for Metro Jacksonville.  There's an opportunity to impact from the beginning.  In the meantime, dedicated business owners like Ian and Carl's will find a way to perfect their product into a successful one.  As time goes on, establishments like these will become the bookends of a commercial district.

For example, we pursued a strategy of arts based development and providing cheap space to artists, who were willing to deal with the sub prime conditions of the properties as well as improving them as they went along.

There were more than a hundred new artists introduced to the neighborhood.  Over the next few months half of them had managed to offend and then be offended by neighborhood politics.

There were scenes and boycotts over artwork displayed at Henrietta's.   General distaste for the gay nature of one of the plays at Boomtown, people didnt like the politics of Lisa Neary, SPAR refused to honor a contract with the Massettes for a film series after they had already taken on all the costs of the series and were doing it basically at cost for the neighborhood.   No one would frequent Pickett Gallery or Diallos because they were black business. And the shops that depended on neighborhood support suffered tremendously.

Then after only a year of being there for cheap rent, the artists found that their rent doubled or tripled and they were forced out of the neighborhood.   The rents went up to the market rates of avondale and san jose, and the commercial rates were literally laughable.

Now the presence of the artists and the targeting of the neighborhood for arts development had brought publicity that if it had been paid for would have easily reached into the million dollars mark over the four years it took for neighbourhood politics and speculators to nearly kill the artist community that settled there.

So the mere conversation of how to do it isnt enough, there are concrete steps that you have to follow.

Additionally, when we launched the artists community thing, the rents were on the rise in Five Points, it took the developers over there by surprise.

They decided on a strategy of upscaling, and replacing the funky bohemian spaces with yuppie bait.

That worked, but not in the five points district proper.   It centered around the Publix.

Now Five Points is trying to work out a strategy to prop up its tenancy base and it has returned to the community that created it.  Over the past few months, the cool little shops and galleries that used to open in Springfield have been popping up all over Riverside again.

The economic downturn is going to make rents more reasonable and the idea of opening a shop where there are already known customers even more attractive.

Someplace you don't have to drive a long distance to get to.

So simply relying on 'the younger crowd' to initiate change and development is probably not going to be enough to create the settings necessary to drive progress.

Areas have very cheap rent for many years before they simply pop up as the 'hot district'.   Cheap rents arent enough.

I guess this is where we're differing.  Main Street is a major highway through town, similar to a Southside Blvd or Blanding.  The amount of through traffic presents a stronger opportunity to pull from a customer base of those who live outside of the historic district's boundaries.  This makes Main a different animal from Five Points, Avondale or Murray Hill.  When I mention Main, I also think of more than just the artifical historic district boundaries.  Everything north of 14th Street is just as important.

All I want is for "Main" to be a viable urban commercial district.  It doesn't have to be the next arts scene, Five Points or Riverside.  Its future has not been defined yet and I don't think anyone person should attempt to do so.  It could cater to the Northside for all I care......as long as its vibrant and maintains its urban streetscape.  There's room for the young, arts related, yuppies, emptynesters and more.  The physical built environment alone will make it an unique place among Jacksonville's commercial districts.  

When it gets down to this, I don't think the neighborhood politics of SPAR or anyone else is powerful enough to keep successful businesses that can pull from an assortment of urban neighborhoods out.

[thelakelander]

The Craig issue will eventually work its self out, but there are properties out there that can be taken advantage of, not owned by CVH.

Find a couple of buildings on 8th street that are adjacent to each other that he doesnt own....
He has liquidated every business of every property he has ever rented to.
So you can remove 8th Street from your list of potential incubator areas.
Pretty much all of it.

He does not appear to own anything on 8th, East of Market.  Its interesting that this is also the area of 8th with the most urban existing building fabric still in place.

And of course you need a strategy.

These things don't really happen by themselves.

What things?  Themed business/entertainment districts or commercial districts in general?

[thelakelander]

"Communities of Place"

Can you further define and break down into common man's terms, so all will have a better understanding of your concerns?

[thelakelander]

All I want is for "Main" to be a viable urban commercial district.  It doesn't have to be the next arts scene, Five Points or Riverside.  Its future has not been defined yet and I don't think anyone person should attempt to do so.  It could cater to the Northside for all I care......as long as its vibrant and maintains its urban streetscape.  There's room for the young, arts related, yuppies, emptynesters and more.  The physical built environment alone will make it an unique place among Jacksonville's commercial districts. 

When it gets down to this, I don't think the neighborhood politics of SPAR or anyone else is powerful enough to keep successful businesses that can pull from an assortment of urban neighborhoods out.

We agree on the first part, but disagree on your second thesis.

Development along Main, in almost all likely scenarios, will have to start where the greatest infrastructural presence is, in order to provide the stabilizing forces that go into a district.  That means the side closest to Downtown, where there is a parks system, school, masonic lodge and a few museums in place.

This is the gateway.   New people coming into the area pass through this area first and determine whether or not they will venture further.

I believe the reverse is happening.  The new gateway appears to be from the North.  I say this because the traffic count is higher in this area and its the part of Main that continues to catch the eye of new businesses.  This is probably the effect of years of closing off streets making it a challenge to move between downtown and Springfield.  It also doesn't help that half of the blocks between 1st and 4th Streets were leveled for car lots a few decades ago.

This same dynamic is why Five Points was so vitally important to Riverside.   If Five Points improved or became a viable Community of Place, then people would venture further into the neighborhood with money and investment.

Springfield appears to be the opposite of Five Points.  People have already ventured into the neighborhoods with money and investments.  Main is an actual highway.  Five Points was a block long commercial strip.  Unless, we focus on a certain part of Main (for example the 6th to 8th Streets), that would make for a better comparison.  Anything other than that and you then begin to deal with two completely different animals.

San Marco is a reverse example of this process.   Its success drew from the immediate neighborhood, but more importantly from its Sphere of Influence--that marketing term which means the natural demographics of uninterrupted customer base with no similar and competing concept.   Its the formula that Walmart uses when deciding store placements.   Development fueled by San Marco's sphere of influence which extended all the way from mandarin, hugely driven by the proximity of the exclusive private schools in the area.  Bishop Kinny, Episcopal, and Bolles.   All of those schools are within short distance of the little square and on any given afternoon for the past 20 years, at 3 oclock, you can see scores of their student bodies hanging around in the square, many of whom are awaiting parents.

But San Marco also started with infrastuctural advantages.   Library, Churches, Schools, Riverfront, just slightly more than Springfield has at present.

San Marco has the benefit of money never leaving the community and Riverside does to, to a certain degee.  Its commercial core is also pales in comparison with Main Street.  Also, neither of these communities turned into the red headed stepchild of urban Jacksonville.  Thus, it could be said that the redevelopment of these districts were much easier to ultimately pull off.

The point is that development gathered its strength in the sphere of influence SOUTH of San Marco, reached critical mass and then began pushing toward downtown.

The massive developments of the Riverwalk, River City Brewing Company, Childrens Museum and Hospitals had almost nothing to do with the creation of the Community of Place that is only now beginning to extend towards downtown.   Those things were all there for 20 years or more before development from San Marco began to create infill.

So San Marco would be a great example of the reverse style of the development that Springfield has locked itself into.  Also the reverse of what happened in Riverside.

The Southbank appears to be pushing south to merge with San Marco along Kings/Hendricks, while San Marco seems to be pushing northward along San Marco Blvd.  Nevertheless, I believe this is a completely different animal from Main Street.  Springfield is only one of the players along Main.  Others are New Springfield, Brentwood and Downtown for example.  The physical set up, length, history and location of Main present a set of challenges that the other neighborhoods never had to overcome.

[thelakelander]

Springfield is not dense enough to rely on its population to create anything other than a very small community of place.  It sees itself along the same lines as any of the large communities of place above listed, and would like to see the commercial strip develop along the same lines as those places.

Its not really a question of corporate vs Mom and Pop, this is a conversation that a couple of the more knuckleheaded people seem to be caught in on both sides of the equation, but rather an economy of scale.

It only has a couple of options in order to acheive its objectives.  Either throw down its bucket in its natural sphere of influence:  a MASSIVE, culturally and racially diverse area that extends through the northside and on up through south Georgia,
or
Compete directly with the already existing Communities of Place that are already drawing from their own distinctive spheres of influence.

Option A also has the potential to be a "community of place" and distinctive in its own right.  There's, no strong reason to compete with other urban districts for cultural dominance.  This is a metropolitan area of over 1.3 million people.  There's enough to go around to the point that we can have multiple successful urban commercial districts. 

Five Points succeeded because due to the last recession, it could extend its natural sphere all the way to orange park and beyond....it wasnt the Riversiders who supported that District.

In either strategy, there isnt anyone in the current configuration with the experience or skill set to do either successfully.

This is a huge assumption to make.  Nothing happens overnight, so I guess time will ultimately tell.

Our strategy with the arts was to create a distinct and recognizeable Community of Interest whose appeal was Interest-based, and could therefore sift a sphere of influence from all directions instead of merely a geographically based sphere.

Cool, could you further define your idea of "community of place".

[thelakelander]

The definition of what you believe the Springfield community does not have.

This is a huge assumption to make.  Nothing happens overnight, so I guess time will ultimately tell.

Its really just an observation of fact, Lake.  I know almost every single person in the area involved in the conversation.  None of these things are even ideas they are acquainted with.  And again, the proof is in the pudding.  I already have one go round in this exact environment.

Using these ideas and assumptions, the business that we created succeeded.   We watched a deplorably high number of other businesses, several of them with a more substantial investment and definitely with greater neighborhood support fail.

I believe the animal of Springfield is quite different from Five Points, based on many of the factors I mentioned above.  Its quite conceivable that what worked in Five Points will not work in Springfield.  This is no different from our argument with JTA that every commuter rail system is unique and most be designed to fit the region its intended to serve.

Cool, could you further define your idea of "community of place".

How do you mean?  The definition, or more of a detailed hypothetical example?

Or do you mean Community of Interest?

I guess the defination, why Sringfield does not have it in your opinion and if you believe it will ever have it?

[thelakelander]

1. How many of these businesses failed because of:

A. City Facade Grants
B. Poor business plan/product
C. Lack of Community Support
D. Poor Landlords (ex. 9th & Main)
E. In place before their time (ex. like Eclate on Bay Street)

2. How many are still in existance today?

Also, how does this list stack up with a list of businesses operating within three blocks of Main today?

[thelakelander]

I'm not sold that Springfield is the reason many of these places failed, because others, such as the Pearl, Shantytown and Carl's have seemed to succeed in many of the same locations.  Plus new businesses such as Three Layers and Jim Browns are off to a good start.  It can also be said, that many of these early business owners learned from their mistakes making their chances to succeed at a second project much higher than the first.

However, if neighborhood politics are killing businesses, then why not target an area of Main, outside of the historic district, such as the stretch of Main between the railroad tracks and 21st Street?  This stretch alone, has more built infrastructure in place than Five Points did in the early 1990s.

[Driven1]

dear God help us.

[thelakelander]

Sometimes its not complicated why certain places develop in a certain pattern.  Sometimes these things have nothing to do with "new urbanist" (I hate when this concept is used in existing urban areas) principals.  Here's short answers to why these certain areas did not develop like San Marco:

But what makes San Marco any different from say, Blanding Boulevard and the San Juan area, which also has these components in place?

Traffic.  Blanding and San Juan carry a much heavier traffic load in a less dense area of town.  Nevertheless, the buildings are filled with businesses.  


see Lake Shore photos here: http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/730/117/

Or Dennis Street by brooklyn?

Dennis Street is an industrial park off the beaten path.  Although centrally located, its too disconnected, which is why I continue to state its better off being an area for social services.

Or the Woodstock district over by Beaver and McDuff?

Demographics, low income levels and declining population base.

[thelakelander]

I'm not sold that Springfield is the reason many of these places failed, because others, such as the Pearl, Shantytown and Carl's have seemed to succeed in many of the same locations.  Plus new businesses such as Three Layers and Jim Browns are off to a good start.  It can also be said, that many of these early business owners learned from their mistakes making their chances to succeed at a second project much higher than the first.

However, if neighborhood politics are killing businesses, then why not target an area of Main, outside of the historic district, such as the stretch of Main between the railroad tracks and 21st Street?  This stretch alone, has more built infrastructure in place than Five Points did in the early 1990s.

So whats the theory?   Just a freak set of coincidences?  Although it isnt just neighborhood politics, the neighborhood politics removes the will for the businesses to stay positive and creatively solve obstacles and soaks up too much time that would be better spent.

For some, maybe.  But for others, not so much.  For me, neighborhood politics gave me the will to attempt to develop a project or two on my own, as well as join SAMBA.  Pretty much the same situation with downtown that led to the creation of this site.  To me, some businesses succeed and some fail.  There's no difference between Springfield and the suburbs in that regards.  Blaming Springfield's residents for a failed business plan seems like a copout, imo.

Pearl brought an already thriving business and placed it in a location already being successfully used by an otherwise identical business (TSI, which relocated downtown)

Earlier, you painted TSI as one of the failing businesses, here you mention that it thrived at the Springfield location until it was bought out by the Pearl, which now continues to thrive in the same location.  Like Jim Browns BBQ, the Pearl has a business plan that pulls from the neighborhood and surrounding areas of town.  This may be the key to success in Springfield, as opposed to solely relying on a limited population base thats still too diverse for some specific "trendy-type" businesses.
   

Three layers is an awesome business that exactly fills one of the needs of the neighborhood.  But it also has special circumstances that pull it outside of the discussion of Main Street or a Community of Place forming there.   The rent on the space is minimal because the building is also the owner's home as well as the office for their second location.

The cost demands of the space are minimal because it isnt a restaurant, but a coffee/bakery, and finally there is no indication that Three Layers will successfully draw a regular clientele from outside the neighborhood.  (I personally think they will, they have the right mindset for it)

The Three Layers situation is one that comes from business owners that believe in the community and have the will to be creative to be a part of it.  Although they target a niche market, they do it well with minimal overhead.

And Jim Brown's BarBQ Place is another example of why Im certain of my assessment.

Many Springfielders eat there, but the springfielder set is NOT the majority of the clientele.  In fact you can see the effect of appealing to the sphere of influence right there at the 9th and Main divide.

It sounds like Jim Brown's has the right business plan.  They serve a product that appeals to all segments of the local population, both the nearby residents and those that live outside of the area.  Sort of like Popeye's, Krystal, Burger King, Subway and KFC on Main Street.  These are national chains that continue to succeed in Springfield but could not in downtown (excluding Subway, which has limited hours downtown).  Such a business plan would put you above neighborhood politics, boycotts or snubbings.

Three corners of the intersection caters to the natural geographic sphere of influence, one doesnt.

It seems that 9th & Main's turn over rate has more to do with CVH then the failure of businesses operating there.  Even you admit you did pretty good the month or so, you were there.

Now the more interesting question is why not concentrate the renovations past the historic district.

Because the same dynamic is in place further along Main Street.  Just from a different group of people.

The hostility isnt in the form of boycott's, property inspections and snubbings, its in the form of break ins, vandalism and the like.

I wasn't here when Five Points took off, but I was in Central Florida when Ybor did.  What you describe, sounds like Ybor in the early 1990s.  That section of North Main is in much better condition socially, than Ybor was when it started to come back to life.